Best Power Conditioner?

[jneutron]

That is the sine wave output by a UPS that claims a sine wave output. A wave that contains sine waves summed together. And perfectly ideal power for any electronics.

Reality posted without insults. You should try it.

You mean as opposed to your constant condescending posts? Look who's talking.

SHOW US THE PURE SINE WAVE OUTPUT OF THE APC S15. Not a googled stepped sine waveform.
I note you didn't..

Well, do it..YOU CLAIMED THEY USED STEPPED SINE...NOW PROVE IT.
Can ya read that??

And then, once you've done that, explain why their let-through voltage of 40 volts is "bad" vs the 400 volt let-through of the whole house spd you're in love with.

ps..By the way, perhaps it's time somebody let APC know you're libeling their product (and the company itself).

Cheers, John

 

[highfigh]

Well, aside from feelers and side runs, there is the rate of change of current of the primary channel. A 10 or 20 kiloamp current that rises in a couple of microseconds will produce horrific magnetic field rate of change. A meter from the bolt, that rate of change will be in the 4 kilovolt per square meter range (application of Faraday's law of induction). 10 meters away, it is 400 volts per square meter. (1/R distance law.) Because the bandied about "rule of thumb" says keep power and signal far away from each other (I do not agree with this btw), loops 2 meters tall by 2 or 3 meters wide are not uncommon on one floor of a residence.. Even at 400 volts per square meter, that can cause 1600 to 2400 volts to show up across a two port device such as a computer, cable box, or tv.


Nah, murphy's law..and, if you make something foolproof, then only a fool.....

westom hopes and prays that when he posts incoherent snippets like this, that nobody actually reads the links to see that what he refers to does not support his arguments.


Nope, not at all. Static discharge failure on IC inputs typically happens because the discharge current rate of rise is sub nanosecond, and the voltage of an IC pad and interconnected elements will rise very quickly. If that speed exceeds the speed that the silicon diffusion tub bypass element can carry charge, then the surface passivation can flash and destroy the device, or if active, setup the latch mechanism.

Cheers, John

The first question was more rhetorical- it was in response to the comment about DC not causing a magnetic field. I'd also like to see him explain how a DC motor works.

Murphy's Law? Ever hear of O'Toole's corollary to Murphy's Law?
"Murphy was an optimist".

Re: the low level current and voltage that damages small components and ICs- that's basically how the Furman product trainer/head designer explains it and he is an electrical engineer.

 

[jneutron]

The first question was more rhetorical- it was in response to the comment about DC not causing a magnetic field. I'd also like to see him explain how a DC motor works.

Yah, I know. As a person with the technical knowledge, it's just boggling to even have to explain this to an adult..as you point out, third graders learn this.

Re: the low level current and voltage that damages small components and ICs- that's basically how the Furman product trainer/head designer explains it and he is an electrical engineer.

Cool..He indeed understands it. (and not just because he agrees with me)

I spent many a year working with military hybrids, every semiconductor known to man in chip form. There were many instances where ESD failures (among other failure scenario's) had to be opened up, and a failure analysis performed.. from simple I/V characteristics through high power polarized metallurgical optical inspection, through to SEM and SIM machines (one of my workers ran a SEM, we outsourced SIM. Guess who was the lucky sole who had to find the damage on the chip?...me. Man, I learned a lot...

Cheers, John

 

[westom]

Lurkers will slog through reams of post that are only personal insult. That have no technical merit. That would be purged if this discussion was moderated. Those without basic electrical knowledge do post only insults.

Demanded were numeric specs. When those specs were finally provided for an APC, no claim for surge protection existed. And its output was listed only subjectively as a sine wave. Provided was a UPS oscilloscope output that is subjectively a 'sine wave'. Why do specs not list numbers that the electrically knowledgeable would demand: THD? Only the electrically informed need numbers. Only the electrically knowledgeable would know why THD is important.

More honest specifications call this a ‘stepped sine wave’. Bottom line - dirtiest power typically seen by any appliance is from a UPS in battery backup mode. See the picture.

Abusive posters provide no numbers that claim surge protection. They cannot provide what does not exist. A plug-in UPS claims no protection from typically destructive surges. See APC specs. Where does it list protection from each type of surge? It says nothing. Those trained by hearsay and advertising (retail propaganda) post insults with denials. If an offensive poster post more insults in big red letters, then you will ignore facts: ie no effective protection is provided by a plug-in UPS.

After reading so many offensive slurs from the technically naive, return to facts and reality. The naïve must deny this picture to believe hearsay and myths (using insults). A typical 'stepped sine wave' or 'sine wave' output from a plug-in UPS is:

 

[jneutron]

Lurkers will slog through reams of post that are only personal insult. That have no technical merit. That would be purged if this discussion was moderated. Those without basic electrical knowledge do post only insults.

Yes, we know that. You have posted post after post of nothing but electrically incompetent, technically illiterate kluges of snippets in an entirely incoherent fashion, with no logical thinking or understanding.

I began discussion with you back on AVSforum keeping in mind that the illiterate verbage you use was simply a result of a difficulty with the english language. I gave you lots of room, as I work with people from all around the world.

As time progressed, it became clearer and clearer that your illiterate and incoherent postings were not a result of a language barrier, but because you post in an illiterate and incoherent fashion with an illiterate and incoherent understanding of the technical basis of the discussion.

Generally, I would admonish an eight year child for posting in such a dismal fashion.

In correcting your technical errors, you have become progressively worse with your insults and condescending attitude, even going so far as to accuse me of illegal behaviour.

I have had enough of your stupidity. I will no longer allow your illiterate garbage to be spewn about unanswered.

You have claimed that the APC S15 has a stepped sine output.

NOW PROVE IT.

And stop posting like a child. Grow up.

Cheers, John

 

[bandphan]

Im quite sure the OP isnt coming back

 

[westom]

Generally, I would admonish an eight year child for posting in such a dismal fashion. ...

I have had enough of your stupidity. I will no longer allow your illiterate garbage to be spewn about unanswered. ...

And stop posting like a child. Grow up.

As predicted, jneutron posts plenty more insults. No technical facts and no numbers. Moderators here apparently approve of his constant and nasty posting.

A UPS was recommended for surge protection. But its specification makes no such claim. The manufacturer cannot even define which sine waves it outputs - ie THD number. Responsible specs would define that sine wave in numbers. What kind of sine wave does a typical $100 or $200 UPS output? Stepped sine wave or even dirtier. So the spec only says "sine wave".

Dirtiest power from a UPS in battery backup mode is ideal power - more than sufficient - for any electronic appliances. Because electronics are required to be so robust as to make even dirtiest UPS power irrelevant. Power that can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors is ideal power for electronics.

This UPS output is even worse - and still perfect power for all electronics. This 120 volts APC UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. No problem. Even that 270 volt spike is irrelevant due to what exists inside all electronics.

Now back to more incendiary slurs from jneutron.

 

[jneutron]

Im quite sure the OP isnt coming back

Maybe, maybe not. I bet he's lurking for the entertainment though..

Seriously, If he can spend the bucks, the APC S15 actually looks very good. I was not aware of the unit, but in reviewing the specifications, whoa.

I am very surprised by the 40 volt let-through specification, as I know how difficult it is to balance that act.

Also, the pure sine output is another great thing. I've designed and used different types of power output circuits, and know how inefficient a pure sine out can be, as well as how difficult it is to get FCC certs for a PWM output.

With the multiport spd, there's not much more left. Apparently it also can hook up to a computer for some kind of tailoring to the system, although I've no clue as to what that means for any one system.

We have to protect about 3000 pieces of electrical equipment slated for hi-rel / high uptime use, so we'll be getting 32 units of 45 kW UPS as well as 90 load panels with 120,000 joule 3 phase surge protection devices.. So this discussion about the S15 is really a good one for me. We have about 5 engineering groups here that will need various UPS units, and APC has historically treated us right.

Cheers, John

ps...cool pic.

 

[jneutron]

As predicted, jneutron posts plenty more insults. No technical facts and no numbers. Moderators here apparently approve of his constant and nasty posting.

I'm sure they look at the upper right hand corner of your posts, and can determine that you have no credibility here, as well as a reputation that is in the dirt.

edit: Btw... Gene D, the owner of this site, is an intelligent and knowledgeable individual I've had many discussions with. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't.. He only need read your posts to understand your level, see the red chicklets to see what others think of you, and he can always PM me at any time to discuss the reality of this technology and why your incoherent postings are so wrong.. and dangerous at times.

He has greater concerns with you, and that is your propensity to blatently libel manufacturers with no knowledge, proof, or understanding. If you were allowed to continue your unrestricted lying about the manufacturers products and intentions, I'm sure he'd have shut the thread down long ago and probably banned you. The fact that there are actual engineers willing to correct your technically incoherent and incompetent diatribe helps achieve balance on this forum. But I'm confident that at some point, he may step in and assert control.

This UPS output is even worse - and still perfect power for all electronics. This 120 volts APC UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. No problem. Even that 270 volt spike is irrelevant due to what exists inside all electronics.

Again, with the libelous accusations pointed at APC, specifically the APC S15.

Dude, you didn't even look at the scope trace, did you. Look at the bottom left hand of the trace, the jpg label. What does it say dude??

We'll wait..we all know what it says, but you think we can't see.

Cheers, John

ps..Oh, btw...the leading edge spike? Any engineer worth a darn would already know that that is an artifact of the load inductance and the di/dt.. not a spike generated by the switching unit...but one caused by the load reactance..

 

[westom]

I am very surprised by the 40 volt let-through specification, as I know how difficult it is to balance that act.

Had you actually read what others posted, then you know I noted that obvious error long ago.

If you had basic electrical knowledge, then you know a let-through voltage of 40 does not exist in the industry standards.

If you knew what let-through voltage means, then 120 volts would be shorted everytime the AC sine wave exceeded 40 volts - 120 times every second.

If you had learned industry standards, then you know the only possible numbers are 330 or 400 volts.

How many basic electrical concepts did you not know?

It is not difficult to balance that act. It is impossible. And it is obviously a typographical error. You would have known that when I mentioned it so many hundreds of posts previously. But you do not even know what let-through voltage defines.

Again, for the benefit of others. Another example of why jneutron posts nasty rather than technical. He does not even know a simplest technical term - let-through voltage. That number is on the box for every UL listed surge protector.

 

[jneutron]

Had you actually read what others posted, then you know I noted that obvious error long ago.

If you had basic electrical knowledge, then you know a let-through voltage of 40 does not exist in the industry standards.

If you knew what let-through voltage means, then 120 volts would be shorted everytime the AC sine wave exceeded 40 volts - 120 times every second.

If you had learned industry standards, then you know the only possible numbers are 330 or 400 volts.

How many basic electrical concepts did you not know?

It is not difficult to balance that act. It is impossible. And it is obviously a typographical error. You would have known that when I mentioned it so many hundreds of posts previously. But you do not even know what let-through voltage defines.

Again, for the benefit of others. Another example of why jneutron posts nasty rather than technical. He does not even know a simplest technical term - let-through voltage. That number is on the box for every UL listed surge protector.

I left your entire post intact for the benefit of others.

sigh...You must learn the material so that you do not show yourself a fool.

http://nam-en.apc.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/65/~/joules-vs.-let-through-voltage

Go down to the third paragraph where it says...

""Let-Through Voltage is actually the difference between the effective clamping voltage and the peak AC voltage. For example, a UL 330V rating indicates that the let-through voltage to the protected equipment is < or = 330V minus 169 Volts peak (for a standard 120 VAC power). ""

I've always said I was willing to teach you the rudimentary fundamentals you so sadly need..but nooooo, you hafta go and make yourself out the fool.. I try..

Cheers, John

 

[sawzalot]

I'm afraid to buy an extension cord now

 

[highfigh]

Lurkers will slog through reams of post that are only personal insult. That have no technical merit. That would be purged if this discussion was moderated. Those without basic electrical knowledge do post only insults.

Demanded were numeric specs. When those specs were finally provided for an APC, no claim for surge protection existed. And its output was listed only subjectively as a sine wave. Provided was a UPS oscilloscope output that is subjectively a 'sine wave'. Why do specs not list numbers that the electrically knowledgeable would demand: THD? Only the electrically informed need numbers. Only the electrically knowledgeable would know why THD is important.

More honest specifications call this a ‘stepped sine wave’. Bottom line - dirtiest power typically seen by any appliance is from a UPS in battery backup mode. See the picture.

Abusive posters provide no numbers that claim surge protection. They cannot provide what does not exist. A plug-in UPS claims no protection from typically destructive surges. See APC specs. Where does it list protection from each type of surge? It says nothing. Those trained by hearsay and advertising (retail propaganda) post insults with denials. If an offensive poster post more insults in big red letters, then you will ignore facts: ie no effective protection is provided by a plug-in UPS.

After reading so many offensive slurs from the technically naive, return to facts and reality. The naïve must deny this picture to believe hearsay and myths (using insults). A typical 'stepped sine wave' or 'sine wave' output from a plug-in UPS is:

You're calling that 'stepped sine wave'? That looks like square wave with overshoot.

Why not go to the APC or Panamax site and even contact their engineers, so you can get the info directly from them?

 

[westom]

"Let-Through Voltage is actually the difference between the effective clamping voltage and the peak AC voltage. For example, a UL 330V rating indicates that the let-through voltage to the protected equipment is < or = 330V minus 169 Volts peak (for a standard 120 VAC power)." So a let-through voltage of 330 volts minus 169 volts is a positive 61 volts. But the let-through voltage is 330 volts; not 61. Now explain 40V minus 169 Volts peak? A negative 129 volts of protection? A less than zero difference is protection? Obvious nonsense you will avoid with more insults.

Somehow a 40 volt let-through voltage did not short out AC mains 120 times every second? Only when technical ignorance exists.

I am very surprised by the 40 volt let-through specification, as I know how difficult it is to balance that act.

Not difficult. It is impossible. Obviously when one knows what 40 volts mean. It was even explained a hundred some posts ago. Apparently he ignores what he cannot understand. Exceeding 400 volts is when a protector circuit stops being inert. Less than 400 volts is when that protector circuit does virtually nothing. It is that simple.


sawzalot - you have no reason to fear extension cords. Extension cords do as their specs require. UPS also does what its specifications state. That means it does not do what urban myths and advertising would have you believe. A UPS provides temporary and dirty power during a blackout. And does near zero surge protection - as its specs state.

Fear when a nasty poster with virtually no electrical knowledge hypes himself as the expert. He recommends a UPS as a surge protector. And proves it by posting insults rather than technical numbers. Even the manufacturer does not claim protection from a typically destructive surge. But he posts mockery. So it must be true.


He did not even know what let-through voltage measures. He did not know the meaning of a number printed on every protector box. He did not even know that 40 volts is impossible - obviously a typographical error. Fear those who recommend from disparagement – without technical knowledge. Fear recommendations from anyone who routinely insults and who does not learn the most basic facts and numbers.

Extension cord does what standards and its specs say it will do. Do not believe myths promoted by hearsay, junk science, and advertising – and without numbers.

 

[westom]

You're calling that 'stepped sine wave'? That looks like square wave with overshoot.

Companies such as APC called that wave a 'stepped sine wave', a 'modified sine wave', or just a 'sine wave'. They know the most naive among us will then claim a UPS 'cleans electricity'. Do you think that UPS output is cleaner? It is a sine wave as the spec says. And unfortunately with excessive THD which the spec forgets to mention. Why would APC always forget to include a critical spec number?

Then you might learn why APC recommends no small electric motors on their UPS outputs.

Dirtiest power seen by appliances can be from a UPS in battery backup mode. Specs did not lie. They just let the most naive remain ignorant by not providing numbers - ie THD. That 'stepped sine wave' is many sine waves. Those who learned that high school math concept would understand.

 

[jneutron]

"Let-Through Voltage is actually the difference between the effective clamping voltage and the peak AC voltage. For example, a UL 330V rating indicates that the let-through voltage to the protected equipment is < or = 330V minus 169 Volts peak (for a standard 120 VAC power)." So a let-through voltage of 330 volts minus 169 volts is a positive 61 volts. But the let-through voltage is 330 volts; not 61. Now explain 40V minus 169 Volts peak? A negative 129 volts of protection? A less than zero difference is protection? Obvious nonsense you will avoid with more insults.

I was confident that math was not your strong subject. You have made that perfectly clear.

169 plus 40 = 209


If you need more math help, let me know.

Man, you are really squirming her, aren't you. No way out of this box. You might as well continue to resort to your normal condescention...
Oh wait...here it comes...

Fear when a nasty poster with virtually no electrical knowledge hypes himself as the expert. He recommends a UPS as a surge protector. And proves it by posting insults rather than technical numbers. Even the manufacturer does not claim protection from a typically destructive surge. But he posts mockery. So it must be true.

He did not even know what let-through voltage measures. He did not know the meaning of a number printed on every protector box. He did not even know that 40 volts is impossible - obviously a typographical error. Fear those who recommend from disparagement – without technical knowledge. Fear recommendations from anyone who routinely insults and who does not learn the most basic facts and numbers.

Now that's the westom we all know and love. (and laugh at)

Learn the topic dude. We are adults, we can see the gyrations of a child.

(that be you, wes..)

Even when I provide you the actual definition of an entity, you do not understand..

I do not want you banned...this just too easy..and too much fun..

Like fish in a barrel you are..

Cheers, John

ps..westom...please...do not ever stop...this is so much fun..but, I must confess to being embarrassed at the ease with which you can be trashed. It's like debating a 3rd grader...

pps..my apologies to all third graders..

 

[highfigh]

Companies such as APC called that wave a 'stepped sine wave', a 'modified sine wave', or just a 'sine wave'. They know the most naive among us will then claim a UPS 'cleans electricity'. Do you think that UPS output is cleaner? It is a sine wave as the spec says. And unfortunately with excessive THD which the spec forgets to mention. Why would APC always forget to include a critical spec number?

Then you might learn why APC recommends no small electric motors on their UPS outputs.

Dirtiest power seen by appliances can be from a UPS in battery backup mode. Specs did not lie. They just let the most naive remain ignorant by not providing numbers - ie THD. That 'stepped sine wave' is many sine waves. Those who learned that high school math concept would understand.

Aside from the fact that a motor presents a difficult load at start up, why would anyone want to connect one to a device like the ones we use for AV equipment? It's not designed for medium/large motors and many motors don't have a problem with a bit of voltage fluctuation since they're synchronous.

Are you referring to Gibbs Phenomenon?

So, they're now calling a square wave with oscillations 'stepped sine wave'? Care to show this?

 

[jneutron]

Aside from the fact that a motor presents a difficult load at start up, why would anyone want to connect one to a device like the ones we use for AV equipment? It's not designed for medium/large motors and many motors don't have a problem with a bit of voltage fluctuation since they're synchronous.

Yup. And in addition to the laminations basically ignoring the spikes, smaller impedance protected devices care not a whit..also.

Are you referring to Gibbs Phenomenon?

Yes, he is.

However, examination of the waveform clearly shows leading edge spikes only, there are none as the waveform drops to zero. If Gibbs were involved, there's be spikes at the end of all 4 transitions, not just the two powerup edges. That is a result of the load reactance in one direction only, I suspect an interesting load.

So, they're now calling a square wave with oscillations 'stepped sine wave'? Care to show this?

Actually, the inverters have progressed from a full square wave to one where there is an off time. It is supposed to imitate a sine a bit closer. Sometimes called width modulated square, sometimes called square haversine..

Cheers, John

 

[dapack69]

Westom,

What is your background in Electrical Engneering? You have your bachlers or masters?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I'm afraid to buy an extension cord now

I'm not going to...