Best Power Conditioner?

[goonstopher]

This thread hurts my brain! Does this mean my apc15 is useless ha...?

 

[jneutron]

This thread hurts my brain! Does this mean my apc15 is useless ha...?

I've not found a part number APC 15. However, I've found APC consistent in their presentation of specifications, and consistent in quality for all the units we've used at work.

Other than making sure your electrical system meets code, and either one or two layers of protection with a whole house and/or an end of branch protector, the topic is a no-brainer.

On occasion, you will meet some goofball on the internet who copies and pastes in a disjoint and incoherent fashion..little tidbits culled from professionals who actually know the topic. By posting links to webpages which supposedly support the incoherent tidbits, some semblence of legitimacy is "shown". However, he relies on everybody sitting back and saying "golly gee, he must be right"...without taking the effort to actually read the links and see that the entire argument is bogus. A good example is his Florida radio tower link, where he claimed the earthing "met code"..Reading the article shows that the towers FAILED code by a factor of 22. He hopes that nobody reads the links so that his argument holds up.

Even rarer still are the engineers who can be bothered taking the time to correct all the garbage postings of some fruitcake on the internet.

For all the good things the internet provide, it also provides a soapbox for the nutcases to stand on as well. Sigh, freedom of speech and all that..

Cheers, John

""Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.""

 

[westom]

Does this mean my apc15 is useless ha...?

Only way anyone can answer your question and be honest - you must provide specification numbers. For example, many line conditioners are nothing more than a power strip protector inside an expensive box - once we view the spec numbers. They can lie - say anything they want - call it a line conditioner in sales brochures and advertising. Only place they must be honest are in numeric specs. Nobody can say what it is or what it does without those numbers.

Also helpful: what are you trying to solve? It could be the world's best surge protector. And you could still have bad power factor. Nobody could honestly answer your question without spec numbers.

 

[jneutron]

It could be the world's best surge protector. And you could still have bad power factor.

WHAT??

How does one have a "bad power factor"??

Power factor is the phase relationship between the voltage and current for pure reactance and resistance.

It is not a "deliverable" by the power company. It is a result of the current draw of a load.

Try another phrase taken out of context...

Cheers, John

 

[westom]

WHAT??
How does one have a "bad power factor"??

How do you make recommendations without any specification numbers? Oh. You have magic power. You know because you post insults.

The poster asked for a recommendation. Reality: no honest person can recommend without the numeric specs. In the real world, no 'magic box' solves all anomalies. A solution means the problem must first be identified. Without numeric specs is how the most electrically naive would make recommendations. Why did you post without facts and numbers? Oh. You are jneutron. You need no facts and numbers. The poster should believe you because you constantly post mockery and insults - and no conclusions based in spec numbers.

 

[sawzalot]

Some of these posts belong in the power company / utilities forums definitely not in an Audioholics haven for info and advice.

 

[highfigh]

Only way anyone can answer your question and be honest - you must provide specification numbers. For example, many line conditioners are nothing more than a power strip protector inside an expensive box - once we view the spec numbers. They can lie - say anything they want - call it a line conditioner in sales brochures and advertising. Only place they must be honest are in numeric specs. Nobody can say what it is or what it does without those numbers.

Also helpful: what are you trying to solve? It could be the world's best surge protector. And you could still have bad power factor. Nobody could honestly answer your question without spec numbers.

Have you never heard of a company being nailed for false advertising? The FTC does go after them when the offense is safety-related, you know.

From the S15 model technical info, "Regulatory Approvals CSA,FCC Part 15 Class B,UL 1778". It's at the bottom.

http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=S15

 

[sawzalot]

I like it Highfigh and it also includes "those numbers", that have been referenced multiple times in this and some other threads, numbers , numbers , numbers.

http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=S15

And this one comes complete with a two year warranty so let me calculate lightning strikes x the time spent googling Lindsay Lohans drinking x the power company x %&*%%#&+ = this thing will last forever, Battery Back up too, nice feature as well.I have the standard APC H15.

 

[jneutron]

How do you make recommendations without any specification numbers? Oh. You have magic power. You know because you post insults.

YOU MIS-APPLY LITTLE SNIPPETS IN AN INCOHERENT FASHION, ON A SUBJECT YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF.

You newest thing?? Power factor?? ""Yo, dudes...you gots a bad power factor.. ""

That indicates a cluelessness. You have no idea what you are talking about. Yet that doesn't stop you..it never has.

Why did you post without facts and numbers? Oh. You are jneutron. You need no facts and numbers.

Hey, how about the number 550...as in 550 ohms, the resistance to ground that the article you posted on the Florida towers stated was the earthing number. And how about the number 22, as in the earth connection was 22 times the level allowed by code...and yet YOU CLAIMED THEY MET CODE..

The poster should believe you because you constantly post mockery and insults - and no conclusions based in spec numbers.

You ignore ALL specifications everybody posts. ALL. And constantly claim that none were given.

Everybody knows your schtick dude. Everybody. You post snippets from the work of others, mis-understand all of it, and constantly denigrate all who disagree with you.

You know, it's bad enough that you have no clue on what you post, but you have to make it worse by posting incoherently on the topic as well.


Cheers, John

 

[highfigh]

Posted by Westom, on May 5, 2010, at 5:17PM on avsforum:

And I quote:

""No magnetic field exists with DC current. A magnetic field only exists with AC current. Magnetic field only exists when current going equally in both directions. With EE training, you should have also known that.""

Here's the link for everyone to reference...edit: it is post #44.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1247118&page=2

You're effin' kidding! No magnetic field from DC? What a load of crap! If that was true, a clamp-on ammeter wouldn't work and I know they do. That's usually how starter current is determined in the field when a benchtop ammeter isn't available. We made an electro-magnet in third grade using a D cell battery, a piece of wire and a nail but apparently, we were on drugs when we saw it pick up the paperclips. That Hawiian Tropic Fruit Punch kicked my butt back then. It was that, or the alcohol they used for mimeograph solvent. I'm not sure which it was anymore.

 

[jneutron]

You're effin' kidding! No magnetic field from DC? What a load of crap!

Yup. That's what many others said at the time.

He also presents a maxim IC chip datacheet with a 15 kv ESD capable I/O pinset as capable of surviving a 15 kilovolt line transient. Despite repeated explanations that this is a 15 kv charged 100 pf cap discharging through a 1.2 Kohm resistor, like it says in the datasheet he linked to.:edit here's the info:
Stated by westom on feb 4, 2010 at 6:38pm at avsforum, link, go to post #12
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1223089

Semiconductors that were once at risk even at 35 volts must now withstand 2000 and 15,000 volts without damage. One international standard that defines it: IEC 61000-4-2. Only a minority learn technology (ie international standards) before posting. Subjective posts are examples of junk science reasoning.

Numbers mean it comes from reality. For example, a data sheet for a semiconductor interface (that was not possible in 1960). Notice repeated reference to 15,000 volts:
http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds...7E-MAX491E.pdf

He believes Faraday's law of induction never applies to lightning discharges.

He has no clue what a two port device is..actually, he doesn't know what a port it.

He posts the Florida tower link claiming they met code but still had bolt induced failures, yet the article states the tower had a 550 ohm earth connection, 22 times NEC. When this is pointed out.....silence..
Heres that link and the relevant quote:it is post number 67:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1267855&page=3

Orange County FL thought their earth ground was excellent. It was according to code. Then 911 equipment suffered repeated damage. County fixed the only thing that provides surge protection. They upgraded (corrected) an excellent ground that was also inferior for surge protection:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

Note that in post number 68, I point out specifically what the article stated. We have three choices,, Either westom is choosing to lie about the article, he is clueless as to what the article says, or he never read the article..



He claims to be an engineer.

Scary, no?

Cheers, John

 

[highfigh]

Yup. That's what many others said at the time.

He also presents a maxim IC chip datacheet with a 15 kv ESD capable I/O pinset as capable of surviving a 15 kilovolt line transient. Despite repeated explanations that this is a 15 kv charged 100 pf cap discharging through a 1.2 Kohm resistor, like it says in the datasheet he linked to.:edit here's the info:
Stated by westom on feb 4, 2010 at 6:38pm at avsforum, link, go to post #12
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1223089



He believes Faraday's law of induction never applies to lightning discharges.

He has no clue what a two port device is..actually, he doesn't know what a port it.

He posts the Florida tower link claiming they met code but still had bolt induced failures, yet the article states the tower had a 550 ohm earth connection, 22 times NEC. When this is pointed out.....silence..
Heres that link and the relevant quote:it is post number 67:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1267855&page=3



Note that in post number 68, I point out specifically what the article stated. We have three choices,, Either westom is choosing to lie about the article, he is clueless as to what the article says, or he never read the article..



He claims to be an engineer.

Scary, no?

Cheers, John

If DC creates no magnetic field, how does lightning cause damage when it's not a direct strike? That's a polarized voltage event, right? It can start high or low, but it is polarized.

I can't believe a transmission tower would use only the bolts to carry the lightning to earth.

100 pF? That's not much energy.

Panamaxx has a sheet on their site regarding MOVs. It explains that *** long as they have been used, there have been good ones and bad ones, which causes many people to assume they don't work. They also go on to explain that they are an engineering company and that they have more engineers than any other group at the company. Furman is also an engineering company and I have been to live music shows where their generators and power management were used. They wouldn't be the "go to" company for this if they didn't pull it off without damage to the sound/lighting systems. I have seen video of concerts that showed so much lightning that everyone was removed from the area, not just the stage's metal structure.

 

[jneutron]

If DC creates no magnetic field, how does lightning cause damage when it's not a direct strike?

Well, aside from feelers and side runs, there is the rate of change of current of the primary channel. A 10 or 20 kiloamp current that rises in a couple of microseconds will produce horrific magnetic field rate of change. A meter from the bolt, that rate of change will be in the 4 kilovolt per square meter range (application of Faraday's law of induction). 10 meters away, it is 400 volts per square meter. (1/R distance law.) Because the bandied about "rule of thumb" says keep power and signal far away from each other (I do not agree with this btw), loops 2 meters tall by 2 or 3 meters wide are not uncommon on one floor of a residence.. Even at 400 volts per square meter, that can cause 1600 to 2400 volts to show up across a two port device such as a computer, cable box, or tv.

I can't believe a transmission tower would use only the bolts to carry the lightning to earth.

Nah, murphy's law..and, if you make something foolproof, then only a fool.....

westom hopes and prays that when he posts incoherent snippets like this, that nobody actually reads the links to see that what he refers to does not support his arguments.

100 pF? That's not much energy.

Nope, not at all. Static discharge failure on IC inputs typically happens because the discharge current rate of rise is sub nanosecond, and the voltage of an IC pad and interconnected elements will rise very quickly. If that speed exceeds the speed that the silicon diffusion tub bypass element can carry charge, then the surface passivation can flash and destroy the device, or if active, setup the latch mechanism.

Cheers, John

 

[westom]

Have you never heard of a company being nailed for false advertising? The FTC does go after them when the offense is safety-related, you know.

Explain all those 'over the counter' remedies that do absolutely nothing and that in some cases can be dangerous. How many colds have you cured with all those cold medicines? None.

Or those miracle weight loss solutions. Lies that are quite legal and are not prosecuted.

View specs for that APC. It claims no effective surge protection. And yet the ads make reference to protection - subjectively. Well yes. Near zero protection from a type of surge that typically causes no damage. Where is the spec number that claims protection? Does not exist.

So what is that APC? A UPS. It outputs dirty power in battery backup mode. Does it list THD? Of course not. Otherwise you might learn its output is so 'dirty' as to maybe be harmful to small electric motors. Does it solve harmonic, noise, or power factor problems? No. It provides temporary power during a blackout. Anything else it might do is already solved inside every electronic power supply.

What does it claim in sales brochures? Clean power? It doesn't. Eliminate destructive surges? It doesn't. Making subjective claims in sales brochures is legal, is never prosecuted, and gets the most naive among us to believe the sales lies. You are so easily deceived as to believe sales brochures are honest? You really need to look at yourself in a mirror. It can claim near zero anything as a 100% solution. Only the most naïve among us use sales propaganda as fact.

What the technically informed do: demand numbers for each claim? Read your own numeric specs. Its numbers claim no effective surge protection and no 'cleaner' electricity. It is only a UPS - temporary and dirty power during a blackout. Nothing more. Why does it all but claim to save the world in sales brochures? They are promoting myths to increase profits - not to be honest. Legal is to lie in sales brochures. Honestly need only exist in those numeric specs - that says it is temporary power during a blackout - nothing more.

 

[jneutron]

You really should know what you are talking about if you wish to pretend to be a big boy.

Explain all those 'over the counter' remedies that do absolutely nothing and that in some cases can be dangerous. How many colds have you cured with all those cold medicines? None.

Come up with facts dude. not hyperbole. Alleviation of symptoms is not a cure. Nor, are they regulated by the FDA.

View specs for that APC. It claims no effective surge protection. And yet the ads make reference to protection - subjectively. Well yes. Near zero protection from a type of surge that typically causes no damage. Where is the spec number that claims protection? Does not exist.

It's there. Saying it isn't is just an outright lie. You really can't be that doofy, can you??

So what is that APC? A UPS. It outputs dirty power in battery backup mode. Does it list THD? Of course not. Otherwise you might learn its output is so 'dirty' as to maybe be harmful to small electric motors. Does it solve harmonic, noise, or power factor problems? No.

Really?? Don't you know what a sine wave is??

Look, either you are not reading the specs, you don't have the knowledge to understand what you are reading, or you are lying...so which is it??

Cheers, John

ps...gotta love that red large font, eh??
pps..my money's on a combo between the second and the third, mostly the second. You are clueless.

 

[westom]

Really?? Don't you know what a sine wave is??

Even a square wave or stepped wave is a sum of sine waves. Why no numbers to define the sine wave? Because even spikes are sum of sine waves. But they know jneutron did not take high school math. Will post insults so avoid reality.

No perfect sine waves exist - no matter how many times you claim otherwise. Some 'cleanest' sine waves are on AC mains. Dirtiest power comes from a UPS in battery backup mode. Sometimes called a stepped sine wave. How is that a sine wave? They are not promoting to me. They are promoting to an electrically ignorant jneutron. Even a square wave is sums of sine waves. They don't lie. And love to keep you dumb by not providing what more resonsible manufacturer's provide - THD numbers. Even dirtiest power is sine waves. Why did you not know that? Oh. Your expertise comes from insults and lies. A perfect target for electronic scammer.

Even square waves are sums of sine waves. Square waves are sine waves when you - as you always do - forget to demend numbers such as THD.

 

[jneutron]

Even a square wave or stepped wave is a sum of sine waves. Why no numbers to define the sine wave? Because even spikes are sum of sine waves. But they know jneutron did not take high school math. Will post insults so avoid reality.

You've been caught in a lie..

Sometimes called a stepped sine wave. How is that a sine wave?

Who is using a stepped wave dude?

A normal person would be embarrassed to be caught looking like a fool..

You do not seem to suffer that.

Cheers, John

 

[westom]

Who is using a stepped wave dude?

A typical output from a UPS that describes its output as a sine wave:

 

[jneutron]

A typical output from a UPS that describes its output as a sine wave:

Wrong dude.

That's the output of a converter that describes its output as a stepped sine or a pseudo-sine.

Now show us the pure sine output of the UPS that is being DISCUSSED, the APC 15, instead of diverting the conversation.

STOP MAKING THINGS UP AS YOU GO ALONG. Nobody is buying your schtick here anymore.

And trust me, the big boys are learning only one thing from you. You do not let facts get in your way.

Cheers, John

ps..We have seen you cut and paste incorrectly applied, mis-directed and utterly incorrect snippets in your hilariously misguided attempts to prove you are correct. Now show us the pure sine output waveform of an APC S15. Not some waveform you googled. Anybody can cut and paste any waveform they wish and claim anything they want. You know, like you.

 

[westom]

Now show us the pure sine output waveform of an APC S15.

That is the sine wave output by a UPS that claims a sine wave output. A wave that contains sine waves summed together. And perfectly ideal power for any electronics.

Reality posted without insults. You should try it.