Best & Biggest Screen for 17x11' Theater?

[CrazyCanuck75]

Ok it's a toss up for me, I love great sounding movies and I also want them to look their best.

I have a small 17'x11' room and I want to put an acoustically transparent screen about two feet off the front wall (need room for my 3 B&W CT-7.3 behind it), making my room more like 15'x11'. I am planning on installing two rows of seats. The rear row of four seats will be approx 13 1/2' from the screen and the front row of three seats will be about 9' from the screen.

My questions are:
1) Perforated or weaved screen? Leaning towards weaved smx.
-Which is going to look better up close (not too worried about sound).

2) Aspect 1.78:1 or 2.35:1? Leaning towards 2.35:1 (I only watch movies).
-Am I wrong to assume that I can go bigger with a 2.35:1 screen than I can with a 1.78:1? I was thinking like an 80" 1.78:1 or a 90" 2.35:1.

3) Curved or flat? Leaning towards curved.
-Curved looks pretty cool and I hear it focuses light back at the audience better.

So anyways, it looks like I want a 90" SMX 2.35:1 curved screen. What do you guys think? Will it work or am I just dreaming of the impossible? Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. I am just not very confident and 3-4000 bucks for a screen is a huge investment for me, my screen has to be correct as I only get to do this once!
-

 

[jostenmeat]

1. Go weave.

2. More than anything, room dimensions/setup and budget are the primary factors. For instance, if your wall is much wider than it is tall, then a 2.35 can work well. Vice versa.

3. Curved exists to reduce pincushioning distortion with anamorphic glass. The more you skimp on the glass, the more likely you need a curved screen.

There are some overstock SMX sales going on at AVS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1247268

However, I'm also thinking of going AT, and it will be much cheaper for me to go Seymour DIY. The Seymour, even as AT, is known to be top notch for color accuracy. I know less about SMX, but I have run across the posts of only one user who has used both, and he prefers the Seymour. There are several AHers that use Seymour. I know of none that use SMX.

For final size, you really need to throw it up for yourself. Get the PJ first, and fire it at the wall. Depending on final AR, you will then have that can of worms to deal with: the compromises in both audio and video when having two rows. You can make everything perfect for front/center, or you can try to compromise for more seating. Personally, I prefer a larger than 36 deg viewing angle for 16:9. That was found after a lot of experimentation, with a final compromise between the varying ARs found on my BDs.

Do you have any idea how much good glass costs? You will need vertical stretch processing somewhere, and a sled as well.

 

[CrazyCanuck75]

Do you have any idea how much good glass costs? You will need vertical stretch processing somewhere, and a sled as well.

Ummmm glass.....vertical stretch processing and a sled.....no, not really? Guess I have a bit more research to do. Also have you had any experience with elite screens?

 

[jostenmeat]

Ummmm glass.....vertical stretch processing and a sled.....no, not really? Guess I have a bit more research to do. Also have you had any experience with elite screens?

Oh. I don't have any direct experience with Elite, but I can pretty much guarantee you that I would never buy one. Some of their models may be adequate, but some others are said to be pretty terrible. So, why wouldn't I go for a different brand that is almost unanimously praised, while still affordable. Like Carada for example? The BW is said to be not so accurate with colors as some other brands, but even Chris Seymour gives Carada a lot of praise.

Ok, there is another method to use 2.35, and that is the zoom method. Which AR will you calibrate for? Both would be best, but twice the inconvenience. Then, you would be well advised to add dark velvet borders above and below your screen, for your PJ will have to overshoot with the zoom method. The Pana will be most convenient with the zoom memory presets. Some insane videophiles will say that the gradations with different adjustments like zoom and focus, particularly with electronics versions, can never be quite perfect. I honestly wouldn't worry about that though.

The best method, glass: Your PJ thinks* that it's shooting at the 16:9 in the middle of your 2.35 screen. So, without glass, you have black bars on ALL four sides, right, make sense? The vertical stretch pulls it, well, vertically both up and down so that it looks like a funky 16:9 in the middle of the 2.35. Then finally the glass will stretch it horizontally to finally fill the 2.35.

Therefore to use glass means twice distorting the image. Not too unlike the vinyl TTs of the audio world, glass is the one place that you would ideally blow a lot of money on if you want the best pic. We are talking thousands of dollars for good glass. I don't know how much a sled costs (the mechanism that holds the glass, and puts it in front or to the side of the PJ).

 

[BMXTRIX]

1) Perforated or weaved screen? Leaning towards weaved smx.
-Which is going to look better up close (not too worried about sound).

Weave screens seem to be getting all the props for quality and performance, so I would go that route.

2) Aspect 1.78:1 or 2.35:1? Leaning towards 2.35:1 (I only watch movies).
-Am I wrong to assume that I can go bigger with a 2.35:1 screen than I can with a 1.78:1? I was thinking like an 80" 1.78:1 or a 90" 2.35:1.

1.78

With a 11' wide room, your maximum size will come with a 1.78 screen and will match up with ANY projector you end up with. Unless you are willing to drop $5,000+ on a proper anamorphic setup and LOSE the height of 1.78 (no reason) then stick with 1.78 screen ratio and pick a screen size.

SCREEN SIZE:
9' = 72" wide (small!)
13.5' = 107" wide (big!)
Somewhere between is where I would shoot for to give a cinematic feel to your viewing. Keep in mind not ALL movies are shot at 2.35:1 and ALL Blu-ray Discs and HDTV programming is shot at 1.78:1. I think 2.35:1 is a marketing gimmick and horrendously overpriced at this point for all but those few who are willing to spend thousands of dollars (literally) for the 2.35 CIH experience.

3) Curved or flat? Leaning towards curved.
-Curved looks pretty cool and I hear it focuses light back at the audience better.

Flat
The optics of the lens is designed for a flat screen, not a curved screen. You would need to commit to a 2.35 setup and the right anamorphic lens to go this route. Once again, a lot of money spent for minimal gain.

So anyways, it looks like I want a 90" SMX 2.35:1 curved screen. What do you guys think? Will it work or am I just dreaming of the impossible? Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. I am just not very confident and 3-4000 bucks for a screen is a huge investment for me, my screen has to be correct as I only get to do this once!

I think the screen is to small, there is no reason to go curved, or 2.35 with it and you will end up wasting money for a smaller screen instead of just using a 1.78 setup to begin with. 2.35 from 13' is typically a good deal larger than the 1.78 equivalent. If you have the height, then there is no reason not to go 1.78 since it will not impact the width of your 2.35 viewing. Depending on speaker position, it may be worth adding a masking system.

 

[CrazyCanuck75]

Well 1.78:1 is looking better all of a sudden. Do I need any special lenses or equipment to use the curved screens in a 16:9 aspect ratio? Also do you have any sites that give prices for Seymour screens?

 

[CrazyCanuck75]

Ahhh forget the curved screen. I just thought it would look good in my theater. however, what do you guys think of 3d capable projectors, are they worth it or would it be a better investment in a few years if at all?

 

[jostenmeat]

Seymour pricing:
http://www.seymourav.com/store.asp

Two example framing instructions for DIY here, among other tips:
http://www.seymourav.com/screensDIY.asp

All the prebuilt fixed frames come with "tilt", meaning the weave pattern is no longer horizontal, but instead at something like 20 deg. It depends on the screen size and AR for the amount of tilt possible. Some people only get 7, some people get 35, and of course some DIYers might not have any tilt. The reason is to avoid moire when using a 3LCD projector. I will build mine with tilt even thought I'm using DILA because I can.

You can read some of my own queries regarding false walls here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68352

You can also probably pick up a couple of tips in the general scheme of things here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68395

Of course BMX and I are usually around too.

EDIT: Oh I forgot about the 3D question. There isn't any content yet. But one day there will be. TBH, I was pretty disappointed with 3D IMAX version of Avatar, and that's using the superior 3D tech. For the HT consumer, it will surely be active shutter, which means you instantly sacrifice half of your brightness. It's really a personal decision. I wouldn't be surprised for instance if BMX would wait on 3D before buying any new projector, but he can chime in for himself of course.

I OTOH have recently re-remembered the advent of LED projectors. If I am patient enough to keep my PJ for a full 6 years (half way there), then maybe they will be around for reasonable pricing on high PQ units.

Good luck in deciding.

EDIT #2: I just looked up your posting history. So you're the guy with the 5K budget just for audio processor. Hm. What's your budget for the PJ?

 

[BMXTRIX]

You will have to wait at least one week before we know if there will be any reasonable 3D offerrings right now. Currently none of the tech is designed for 3D Blu-ray and those few that may be, are designed for use with a silver screen.

CEDIA is this week, and after the CEDIA show we will have a better idea what projector manufacturers are doing with 3D this year. I have high hopes, but pretty low expectations. I think a 3D home theater projector needs to be in the 2,000+ lumen rated range to deliver the brightness necessary with active shutter glasses.

The Digital Projection release ($19,000) is great and at 5500 lumens, delivers, but it's a bit pricey for most. I think in 2-3 years it will be common to see 3D projection around $2,000ish, so unless we get lucky this year, I would wait a few years.

 

[CrazyCanuck75]

I just looked up your posting history. So you're the guy with the 5K budget just for audio processor. Hm. What's your budget for the PJ?

LOL, if I was to find a must have processor that cost up to $5000.00 I would definitely consider it, but chances are I am going to spend quite a bit less. Also seeing as how fast technology changes such as HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3a&b & 1.4a, the processor will be my last purchase for my theater.

I see people spend 30-60 grand on sports cars, or 20-40 grand on a Harley, so I don't see a problem for me (an average guy) spending 15-25 grand on a theater. Best of all my wife thinks I have earned it, so I better get it done before she changes her mind.

Anyways getting back on topic, I went to the Seymour AV site and was very impressed by what I saw there. $1100 for a 90" 16:9 Center Stage XD is a lot better than other screen companies prices. I sent them an email and asked if they ship to Canada, hope they do. Saved a few bucks there, I was willing to spend up to 3-4 grand on a screen and now might only be spending 25-30% of that! Thanks jostenmeat.

And as for the projector, I don't have a clue what I am going to spend. I want one that is going to compliment the size of my room and honestly, I haven't even looked into them much. I just know the big money is always spent on speakers, processor and projector.

 

[jostenmeat]

You're welcome. I am not 100% sure that it applies internationally, though I imagine it still does, but the prebuilt fixed frames offer a 100% money back guarantee, perhaps outside of the shipping costs (and perhaps additional taxes for you). Mr. Seymour has stated that during these numerous years, not a single screen has ever been returned, so I guess it's pretty easy to make this kind of guarantee. The DIY fabric OTOH is non-refundable.

If you are willing to frame it yourself, you can save over an additional $1000. Just need a bit of wood, spline, staple gun, velvet. Perhaps easier said than done, but the option is there, and even if you hired someone out would you save money. I would definitely reconsider before going small as 90". Get PJ first. Fire at blank wall, everyday, for minimum of 3 days, using both 1.78 and 2.35 from both rows. Then I will give you the official jostenmeat stamp of approval in ordering the screen.

 

[CrazyCanuck75]

Projector first.....hhhmmm need to do a bit more research. Like I said I know very little about them. Need to figure out how many lumens I need, I definitely want full HD, which ones have noise issues, type LCD, DLP etc., picture clarity. This is the one component of this whole project I know the least about.

So you think 90" wide is a small screen for a 9-13 ft. viewing range?

 

[jostenmeat]

Projector first.....hhhmmm need to do a bit more research. Like I said I know very little about them. Need to figure out how many lumens I need, I definitely want full HD, which ones have noise issues, type LCD, DLP etc., picture clarity. This is the one component of this whole project I know the least about.

So you think 90" wide is a small screen for a 9-13 ft. viewing range?

No, I take that back, I actually like 90" quite a bit for these distances. You should still test it out yourself, IMO. Trust me, you will be SO IMPATIENT when you have the PJ without screen, but even a whole week without the screen is worth it IMO for true peace of mind.

Any PJ worth having has 1080p, no worries there. The thing about noise is this: the brighter it is, the noisier it is (maybe outside of LED, because I've no clue there).

Therefore 3LCD is the quietest, but least bright. It also gives you the lowest fill ratio (and is a big reason why there can be moire issues with weaves), while 3LCOS gives you the highest fill ratio. 3LCD has another issue in that it's the only one without a sealed light path, meaning it is much more susceptible to dust blobs. Not that the others are truly immune, but there is a wide gap in the frequency of this issue.

DLP is the brighest, but the loudest (with the additional compromise of very limited physical adjustments). Single chip DLP is the sharpest, which some videophiles demand. 3DLP is the big bucks, very expensive. Why is single chip DLP the sharpest out of 3LCD, 3LCOS, and even 3DLP for that matter? There is no convergence issue that occurs with three panels/chips.

LCOS has been a hot ticket the last several years, with JVC leading the way. It is by far the most popular brand with those with a decent budget who want class leading blacks and PQ. It won't touch $20K PJs on a number of things, but the blacks are yet still comparable believe it or not.

Since 90" is pretty modest actually for screen size, I would not worry at all about brightness.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I think 90" is small if you have a dedicated home theater room, will be doing movie watching primarily and are trying to recreate the cinematic experience.

This is the go to gold standard for recommended screen sizes:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

At 9' the THX recommended screen diagonal is 80.5"
At 13' the THX recommended screen diagonal is 116.3"
Picking the middle - about 11' - you have a recommended 98.4" diagonal.

I would recommend at least a 100" screen. No larger than 110".

I do agree, that if you have the ability to get a projector first and test it for a week or so on a white wall, with chairs/couches at your seating distances, then ordering the right screen will be that much easier for you.

The #1 complaint people have is that they end up buying a HDTV that is to small. (FACT!)

I have consistently talked people into buying a screen that is abotu 10%-20% larger than they wanted and not a single one has ever complained that it was to large and in fact every single one of them thanked me for talking them up a size.

I'm not saying it so you spend more money... It's just that you are trying to recreate the immersive 'theater' experience, and it is truly astounding how accurate the THX specifications are for comfortable viewing. You will get used to 90", 100", or 110" very quickly and wonder if you could have even gone larger.

I had a client who I tried to talk OUT of a 160" screen from 15' viewing. But, after viewing it, he insisted on it and was very happy. So, this is where viewing on a wall, before you buy a screen can be very helpful.

Also: A 100" diagonal 16:9 screen is a 95" diagonal 2.35 screen.

For projectors, the JVC RS Series is pretty much the $5,000 range gold standard.

But, since construction has not begun yet, we will want to wait this week out and see what we get. Epson has a new series of reflective LCD models coming which are claiming unprecidented contrast. Frankly I thought reflective LCD was what LCoS was anyway, so it may be their take on it. Let's see!

 

[AVRat]

+1 on what these guys are telling you! The 90” wide Seymour (103.3 dia.) is probably your best bet. That’ll provide a whopping 45° viewing angle for the front row! And the recommended JVC PJs will provide excellent video quality.

Slightly OT here is regarding your speaker placement. Assuming a 90” wide screen and your rather wide speakers (14.2” setup vertically), placing the L/R behind the screen will provide a rather small soundstage so locating them just beyond the screen’s border is advised and just fits your room’s width.

 

[majorloser]

My theater is close to these dimensions and I have a 100" diag. screen.

I also like the Seymour screen if you plan on placing the speakers behind. They make a really nice screen from the examples I've seen.

 

[jostenmeat]

At 9' the THX recommended screen diagonal is 80.5"
At 13' the THX recommended screen diagonal is 116.3"
Picking the middle - about 11' - you have a recommended 98.4" diagonal.

I would recommend at least a 100" screen. No larger than 110".

CC, the above represents the philosophy of compromising for all seating. Some people go this route, and some people go for the perfect Captain's seat, all else be damned. This won't be the first time you have to make such a decision, think about speaker placements for instance.

I thought I liked it big, but something like 105" really is a big viewing angle from front row. At 110", that's like a 1.1 to 1 width/distance ratio and that's something more commonly seen for scope screens so far as I know. Hmm.

Well, IF* you went slightly too small, you can always scoot the seating up a bit, or move the screen forward a bit. If you go too big, you better have some space to back up to. Of course, best is just to nail it perfectly as you can the first time, hence PJ first.

 

[just-some-guy]

19'x12' room here. 119", 13' viewing distance. i would not want any smaller.

this is the best pic i have of the 1.78 (its an older pic).
it is impressive with good media.

this is the best pic i have of my setup in 2.35 masked.
this would fit in a 11' wide room. but the speakers would be very close to the wall.

if i was going a/t i would get at least a 125", probably a 130". in that room.

 

[CrazyCanuck75]

Thanks guys.

I received an email from Chris Seymour, kinda surprised that he answered my e-mail and not one of their office staff. Anyways, he said they are willing to ship to Canada for a fairly reasonable amount. But I am trying to take Jostenmeats advise and get the projector first......as much as I do want to just order the 90" wide screen!

I have been looking at projectors, seems like the best one to get (keeping budget in mind) would be the JVC RS25. However I am not sure if this projector is for me. Its price is a little high around $8000 bucks, it is so big and I also plan on upgrading to a 3D projector in a couple years when the technology is more mainstream. So the JVC is a little expensive for me since I could be going to 3D. Is there anything around $3000 that gives a decent pic?

I also plan to buy this week, but it will probably be an online order since there are very few projector dealers in my area. So advise and reviews of projectors will be much appreciated.

 

[majorloser]

Chris Seymour is a great guy. Met him a couple times at AH events. Go ahead and ask him to send you a sample of the material used to make the screens. You will be surprised how rugged and well made they are and yet be a weeve design.

If you don't plan on spending large money for a projector, I'd stay away from a 2.35:1 screen.