Is Adding Amp to AV Recvr Worth the $$

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...I added an amp and they sounded wonderful all the way to "0" [volume level]...

Are you serious?

You listened to music with the Denon volume set to "0" with the external amp?

On my Denon AVR-2308 (no external amps) driving the Infinity Primus P362 in a 25' x 25' x 12' open family room and with the Denon volume set to -10, I get a sound level of 90dB on the SPL meter at 15 ft away.

I cannot imagine how loud it would be @ a volume of "0".

And how big is your room? 30' x 30' x 15'?

 

[sjm820]

Again, thanks for all the feedback. I am leaning towards adding an XPA-3 to see how much improvement I get in performance. The price of the Emotiva is very attractive. But I note that you are big ATI fan, AcuDefTechGuy. Your thoughts on an XPA-3 versus an ATI 3 channnel with 200 or even 300 wps?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Again, thanks for all the feedback. I am leaning towards adding an XPA-3 to see how much improvement I get in performance. The price of the Emotiva is very attractive. But I note that you are big ATI fan, AcuDefTechGuy. Your thoughts on an XPA-3 versus an ATI 3 channnel with 200 or even 300 wps?

I've own an Emotiva MPS-2 in the past. It weighed like 110lbs. After installing all the amp modules, one of them didn't want to work, so I had to reopen the amp and reinsert the amp module, and then it worked. I could not figure out why. Overall the built quality was good IMO.

I alwasy place my ears over the speaker drivers and listen for hissing sounds when no music is playing. When I do hear ANY hissing sounds, it bothers me. It gets inside my head.

The MPS-2 had hissing sounds on the speakers. Maybe the SNR was not that great in real life. Hissing sounds are usually due to low SNR. Not- hum noise, but hissing sound.

Another thing was the personal aesthetic issue. I could not get over the aesthetics of the Emotiva. IMO it just didn't have that "high-end-expensive" look to it. Pure personal preference, nothing more.

The fact that Emotiva is made in China also got inside my head. Also personal preference. I prefer things made in the USA or Japan, not China or Mexico.

In conclusion, besides the hissing sound and the initial amp moude-not working, I thought the MPS-2 did a great job; it worked. It amplified the sound just fine. It did it's job.

I think the reliablity of ATI amps will be better than Emotiva. I think the built-quality of ATI amps will be better than Emotiva.

The ATI AT3003 will produce (measured by HTM) 330 WPC into 8 ohms, and 660 WPC into 4 ohms.

I don't think the Emotiva XPA-3 will come close, especially not at 4 ohms.

It's like, if you have the $$, get the ATI. If not, get the Emotiva and you will be probably be just fine.

 

[Mike Ronesia]

Are you serious?

You listened to music with the Denon volume set to "0" with the external amp?

On my Denon AVR-2308 (no external amps) driving the Infinity Primus P362 in a 25' x 25' x 12' open family room and with the Denon volume set to -10, I get a sound level of 90dB on the SPL meter at 15 ft away.

I cannot imagine how loud it would be @ a volume of "0".

And how big is your room? 30' x 30' x 15'?

How is this relevant to my comment on your comment and the general discussion? My point was your statement was not correct in my experience. I can see by the number of your posts and the comments you make that you know a fair bit about this stuff and have a lot to offer. I also see a lot of personal bias that might not be truly helpful.

 

[gmichael]

According to Stereophile, the minimum impedance of the 802D is 3 ohms.

According to HTM, the minimum impedance of the DT BP7000 is 2.9 ohms.

Yet, I've never heard anyone say, "Oh, yeah, these DefTechs require a lot of high amps!"

I don't know much about DefTechs or if they sound better or not with external amps. I do know that B&W's often do.

 

[PENG]

How is this relevant to my comment on your comment and the general discussion? My point was your statement was not correct in my experience. I can see by the number of your posts and the comments you make that you know a fair bit about this stuff and have a lot to offer. I also see a lot of personal bias that might not be truly helpful.

We shouldn't generalized things either. Of course it is possible your speakers could clip an entry level AVR. It depends on the characteristics of the speakers and the rated output of the AVR. Amplifiers are designed by engineers and scientists based on proven scientific/engineering theory. Many mid range AVRs can drive some speakers without the help of external amps in certain listening environment. On the other hand I am sure there are low cost speakers that could cause mid range AVRs to clip.

Those who choose to not believe in the specs and go with the ears can do so but just keep in mind that people who design and build amps to specifications. It would be hard for them to design and build something that may sound good to some people but not others. Those who choose to put more faith in specs are not necessarily bias.

 

[ichigo]

I have an SC-25 too. I'm in the process of selling it, the front channels give off an annoying "ringing" sound. If I set it into bi-amp mode and drive the fronts with the secondary bi-amp channels it also rings. The only way to avoid this is to drive one speaker with a front channel binding post and the other with a rear surround (bi-amp mode) binding post. I went through 3 sets of SC-25s so it's not defective amp, rather it's a design defect.

 

[Mike Ronesia]

Those who choose to not believe in the specs and go with the ears can do so but just keep in mind that people who design and build amps to specifications. It would be hard for them to design and build something that may sound good to some people but not others. Those who choose to put more faith in specs are not necessarily bias.

I didn't mean to offend anyone. It was just he stated something as fact when it was not the case for me at all. I found this to be misleading to the op's question which is not helpful. You can list all the specs you want but clipping is clipping no matter what the specs say and I'm not talking SQ which I agree is subjective. My Denon 2808 can not adequately drive my JBL L820's and needs an amp to reach higher volume cleanly. This is not a spec, it is a fact. It is a real world example of how an amp was worth the $$'s as the op put it. I am not generalizing, I am stating this one example as fact. If you don't believe then come for a listen.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I've own an Emotiva MPS-2 in the past. It weighed like 110lbs. After installing all the amp modules, one of them didn't want to work, so I had to reopen the amp and reinsert the amp module, and then it worked. I could not figure out why. Overall the built quality was good IMO.

I alwasy place my ears over the speaker drivers and listen for hissing sounds when no music is playing. When I do hear ANY hissing sounds, it bothers me. It gets inside my head.

The MPS-2 had hissing sounds on the speakers. Maybe the SNR was not that great in real life. Hissing sounds are usually due to low SNR. Not- hum noise, but hissing sound.

Another thing was the personal aesthetic issue. I could not get over the aesthetics of the Emotiva. IMO it just didn't have that "high-end-expensive" look to it. Pure personal preference, nothing more.

The fact that Emotiva is made in China also got inside my head. Also personal preference. I prefer things made in the USA or Japan, not China or Mexico.

In conclusion, besides the hissing sound and the initial amp moude-not working, I thought the MPS-2 did a great job; it worked. It amplified the sound just fine. It did it's job.

I think the reliablity of ATI amps will be better than Emotiva. I think the built-quality of ATI amps will be better than Emotiva.

The ATI AT3003 will produce (measured by HTM) 330 WPC into 8 ohms, and 660 WPC into 4 ohms.

I don't think the Emotiva XPA-3 will come close, especially not at 4 ohms.

It's like, if you have the $$, get the ATI. If not, get the Emotiva and you will be probably be just fine.

Ha Ha...you got in trouble....

 

[sjm820]

Thanks for the feedback. I have not experienced the ringing issue with my SC-25. But now i am thinking of adding either the ATI 3003 - 3 channels at 300w, SS Class AB or the D-Sonic Magnum 1500 - 3 Channels at 525w, ICE-Class D. Any experience with these?

 

[ichigo]

Thanks for the feedback. I have not experienced the ringing issue with my SC-25. But now i am thinking of adding either the ATI 3003 - 3 channels at 300w, SS Class AB or the D-Sonic Magnum 1500 - 3 Channels at 525w, ICE-Class D. Any experience with these?

The ICEPower amp is not 525 Wrms, it's capable of transients at 525 W. The continuous power rating is 150 W @1KHz and 80 W @ 20 Hz - 20 KHz (these are listed on the 1000ASP spec sheet).

 

[krzywica]

Maybe I'm just too new to all this but, it seems like you're using these hard numbers like all AV equipment is the same. I have some inexpensive speakers ($400pr) that clipped with my Denon once you started upping the volume to -20 (with 0 being reference I think??) I added an amp and they sounded wonderful all the way to "0". These were speakers rated at 125WPC and an amp rated at 200+WPC.

I completely agree....and I also listen with the dial at "0" when I'm jamming out, and thats in a relatively small space (25x10x8). No distortion after adding a power amp, where I had clipping and a general collapsing of the soundstage with brittle shrill highs before adding the amp.