I think Wmax (Chris) may have ripped me off.

[krzywica]

I'd personally look into seeing if Detectives, law enforcement, and prosecutors are able to get involved. The amounts of money that Randy is talking about easily rise to felony charges. He'd still get his money (restitution) and Chris would face as an incentive not being a convicted felon or having to undergo periodic drug screenings and submitting DNA. If they say they can't do anything, then I'd opt for either a civil suit or Small Claims. Chris has elevated this and I'm all for playing hardball. He can take his excuses and shove them up his ***.

As to his speakers sounding amazing that's pure conjecture. There's no body of existing work out there that supports his ability to make speakers that sound better than comparably priced ones.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the OP's mentality and course of action on this. I would have called the local law enforcement office a long time ago. We pay taxes for a reason.......small claims court is for roomates that bail without paying their rent, or lovers that break up and cannot settle on who keeps what. Its certainly not for criminal offenders and scammers.

 

[randyb]

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the OP's mentality and course of action on this. I would have called the local law enforcement office a long time ago. We pay taxes for a reason.......small claims court is for roomates that bail without paying their rent, or lovers that break up and cannot settle on who keeps what. Its certainly not for criminal offenders and scammers.

Actually I didn't open this thread and the person that did got what he paid for. That is part of the reason I have held off is that little by little there was some progress, but at this point, I think my 2 year window to sue will be closing in November so I have to bring it to a head. I am not sure it rises to the level of fraud for the speakers since there was a contract and if everyone was convicted of fraud for breach of contract then there would be alot more fraud convictions. He has done some work on the cabinets. I am not an attorney but I agree with Chu, it is worth trying to go to the authorities first to see if they will treat it as a crime. I sincerely doubt he has a business license but then again, I don't know what the rules are in that area. I am aware of where I am at on this and I doubt that Chris has any money. I had a small business before and suing usually did not necessarily get you much in return other than satisfaction. That said, I am not going to just let this go. Today, I did get a referral for an attorney in the area if it comes to that.

 

[krzywica]

Actually I didn't open this thread and the person that did got what he paid for. That is part of the reason I have held off is that little by little there was some progress, but at this point, I think my 2 year window to sue will be closing in November so I have to bring it to a head. I am not sure it rises to the level of fraud for the speakers since there was a contract and if everyone was convicted of fraud for breach of contract then there would be alot more fraud convictions. He has done some work on the cabinets. I am not an attorney but I agree with Chu, it is worth trying to go to the authorities first to see if they will treat it as a crime. I sincerely doubt he has a business license but then again, I don't know what the rules are in that area. I am aware of where I am at on this and I doubt that Chris has any money. I had a small business before and suing usually did not necessarily get you much in return other than satisfaction. That said, I am not going to just let this go. Today, I did get a referral for an attorney in the area if it comes to that.

I think the hemming and hawing should come to an end. Just get on the horn and talk to the local law enforcement, what could it hurt? At the very least they will be able to direct you to someone that can help, at best they will show up at his door and ask some questions. It will only take half an hour, I've dealt with this type of thing before and the police are the best to contact. If you contact a lawyer they are going to look at it as how much money can they make, not how to make, they always do. And the process will likely take much longer.

 

[chessman]

If you contact a lawyer they are going to look at it as how much money can they make, not how to make, they always do. And the process will likely take much longer.

Best pray you never really need one, and while you are at it, best pray he has a really thick skin so silly uninformed over-generalizations like the above do not deter him from accepting your case.

In 25 years of law practice I have found the majority of attorneys to be hard working honest people. Are there some bad ones? Sure. Got any bad guys in your profession?

 

[AJinFLA]

Actually I didn't open this thread and the person that did got what he paid for. That is part of the reason I have held off is that little by little there was some progress, but at this point, I think my 2 year window to sue will be closing in November so I have to bring it to a head.

Btw, as a speaker builder, it doesn't take 2 years. Just FYI.
More like 2 days to 2 weeks (to actually build/finish) if you have the slightest competence and experience. If the speaker is partially built, that presents a bit of a pickle. But you could still ask for all the parts..with invoices and remaining money. See if a local builder can't do something with them.

cheers,

AJ

 

[krzywica]

Best pray you never really need one, and while you are at it, best pray he has a really thick skin so silly uninformed over-generalizations like the above do not deter him from accepting your case.

In 25 years of law practice I have found the majority of attorneys to be hard working honest people. Are there some bad ones? Sure. Got any bad guys in your profession?

Well a lawyer is running a business to make a profit, while a law officer is a public servant. Its not a difficult deduction to make or even a stretch. I'm not saying that lawyers are bad, I'm saying that a lawyer gets a "cut" while a police officer will not. It makes sense in my head....maybe I'm just crazy....

 

[Alex2507]

It makes sense in my head....maybe I'm just crazy....

Just do what the voices say, you'll be fine.

Welcome back AJ. I thought you were down for the count.

 

[chessman]

Well a lawyer is running a business to make a profit, while a law officer is a public servant. Its not a difficult deduction to make or even a stretch. I'm not saying that lawyers are bad, I'm saying that a lawyer gets a "cut" while a police officer will not. It makes sense in my head....maybe I'm just crazy....

There are civil cases and criminal cases. The police only investigate criminal cases and prosecuting attorneys only prosecute criminal cases. Neither the police, nor the prosecuting attorney will do anything about (nor should they) civil cases. In the vast majority of cases, a breach of contract is a civil matter.

Only if a very narrow exception is applicable (theft by deception), would a contract matter become a criminal matter. The exception is extremely narrow. Even a willful breach of a contract does not rise to theft by deception if at the time the promises were made the promissor had the intention to comply. The burden of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt," which in the instance of promises of performance to occur in the future is extremely difficult to meet. It takes a pretty egregious set of facts to get there. A guy living in his mom's basement who fails to complete a product delivery when promised is very unlikely to arouse the interest of the police.

 

[Alex2507]

There are civil cases and criminal cases. The police only investigate criminal cases and prosecuting attorneys only prosecute criminal cases. Neither the police, nor the prosecuting attorney will do anything about (nor should they) civil cases. In the vast majority of cases, a breach of contract is a civil matter.

Only if a very narrow exception is applicable (theft by deception), would a contract matter become a criminal matter. The exception is extremely narrow. Even a willful breach of a contract does not rise to theft by deception if at the time the promises were made the promissor had the intention to comply. The burden of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt," which in the instance of promises of performance to occur in the future is extremely difficult to meet. It takes a pretty egregious set of facts to get there. A guy living in his mom's basement who fails to complete a product delivery when promised is very unlikely to arouse the interest of the police.

What if he lives on the top floor?

 

[krzywica]

There are civil cases and criminal cases. The police only investigate criminal cases and prosecuting attorneys only prosecute criminal cases. Neither the police, nor the prosecuting attorney will do anything about (nor should they) civil cases. In the vast majority of cases, a breach of contract is a civil matter.

Only if a very narrow exception is applicable (theft by deception), would a contract matter become a criminal matter. The exception is extremely narrow. Even a willful breach of a contract does not rise to theft by deception if at the time the promises were made the promissor had the intention to comply. The burden of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt," which in the instance of promises of performance to occur in the future is extremely difficult to meet. It takes a pretty egregious set of facts to get there. A guy living in his mom's basement who fails to complete a product delivery when promised is very unlikely to arouse the interest of the police.

Yes but as the transaction and all arrangements were fulfilled on the internet this would also fall into the cybercrime bin no? I would imagine it would be much the same as someone who tries to stiff you on Ebay or any other internet site. It was a digital transaction and all evidence has been captured and can be reviewed easily by any authority. Its not as though the facts are convoluted by word of mouth. I have had to get the police involved for failure to ship items before via ebay and other similar sites (I do a LOT of online shopping for used stuff) and there was a detective that hopped on the case right away and I got my product within a few weeks after getting the police involved. How would this be any different other than the contract being less specific? An agreement was reached on what was to be created, an estimated production and deliver time was set, money changed hands, and after several delivery date promises that have been broken he still does not have his product. Am I missing something here? This seems to fit right into your "Theft by deception" exception.

 

[JerryLove]

The testosterone spraying around is a bit scary Though, it's neat to watch everyone speculate on everything from grand larceny to capital murder.

I suppose what they are attempting to get to is "fraud".

If you are on a vengeance kick, feel free to call law enforcement. Mind you: there are areas of the country where an actual burglary isn't enough to get their attention, but you can have fun.

Of course you are the complaining witness, so prepared to fly out to wherever the trial is held (the local police you are calling are in the county jurisdiction), likely repeatedly. It's going to cost you a lot of time and money and, in the end, net you nothing but the satisfaction of a conviction... if you get one, which seems unlikely since you need to prove it was his *intent* to defraud. The fact that Chris eventually finishes some contracts will likely kill your fraud case.

Also: criminal courts don't give people money. You'll be just as poor (well, likely far more so)

If you want your money back, or your contract fulfilled, and you'd like to use the courts to try to accomplish that (and it's not nearly as fun or easy as it sounds), you are really discussing civil court. Small claims if the amount is low enough (which is also nice because, if you loose, the amount you'll have to pay in his legal bills will be capped).

At this point, I'm not sure who I'm talking to (whomever everyone else is) nor what product we are discussing. I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV... cause if I did I wouldn't tell you these things without billing you.

 

[chessman]

What if he lives on the top floor?

Well, obviously, that would be a federal offense.

 

[Chu Gai]

He lives in a small town of less than 1,500 people and the PD happens to be on the same street not too far away. What he owes Randy from what I gather is a pro Yamaha amp and whatever monies (several thousand) that he paid Chris to do the work. It's been a couple of years or so and still nothing. So, what has Chris accomplished? He finally made the OP's crossover after he'd been sent $150 plus the parts and in order for that to happen, mention had to be made at the PartsExpress website where Chris has been posting.

He's already spent the money. If you read his posts he buys drivers, tests this and that, and writes about his results. In another forum (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=65386 Post #7) he says he recently bought a turntable for around $2K. Gee, I wonder where that money came from?

Myself, I don't give a sh!t if he's sick with respect to all this. I would look at the most agressive approaches that are likely to yield a result. If the police opt to do nothing and wash their hands, there are other areas to explore. If they do, then let his parents worry about whether they should hire a lawyer or whether they should come up with the money that Randy is owed. Chris can pay them back and keep it in the family.

 

[krzywica]

Yeah I still don't get it.....I don't understand the civility offered after all the shady and fraudulent behavior.....its as if some of you are making it out to be not his fault.....lots of speculation and zero action....maybe he is just in a MUCH better financial situation than most of us that he can give someone thousands of dollars for a product that is never delivered....

Hey Randy I will build the speakers for you. I promise I will have them finished by tomorrow. Please wire be $20,000 to my offshore account. PM me and I will give you the account and routing numbers.

 

[JerryLove]

Yeah I still don't get it.....I don't understand the civility offered after all the shady and fraudulent behavior.....its as if some of you are making it out to be not his fault.....lots of speculation and zero action....

So you feel that one should only be civil to people who are in the right? That will make some interesting discussions I'm sure.

maybe he is just in a MUCH better financial situation than most of us that he can give someone thousands of dollars for a product that is never delivered....

Yes, that is an excellent example of non-action speculation.

All I'm saying is that many of the suggestions don't seem geared toward recovery of funds or equipment.

That and I'm sure I'll never see my speaker stands.

 

[Chu Gai]

He's on the hook for speaker stands, Jerry? How long has that been?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

There are civil cases and criminal cases. The police only investigate criminal cases and prosecuting attorneys only prosecute criminal cases. Neither the police, nor the prosecuting attorney will do anything about (nor should they) civil cases. In the vast majority of cases, a breach of contract is a civil matter.

Only if a very narrow exception is applicable (theft by deception), would a contract matter become a criminal matter. The exception is extremely narrow. Even a willful breach of a contract does not rise to theft by deception if at the time the promises were made the promissor had the intention to comply. The burden of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt," which in the instance of promises of performance to occur in the future is extremely difficult to meet. It takes a pretty egregious set of facts to get there. A guy living in his mom's basement who fails to complete a product delivery when promised is very unlikely to arouse the interest of the police.

I have to admit...I am disappointed....

If I was a lawyer, I would have better subs...

 

[JerryLove]

He's on the hook for speaker stands, Jerry? How long has that been?

That depends on if you start with me or with Matt. Remember that my WmAx speakers went through three owners before they were completed (well, except for stands).

I'm not holding my breath... and I'm considering I should put them in my will in case they are completed during the lifetime of my unborn children

 

[highfigh]

The testosterone spraying around is a bit scary Though, it's neat to watch everyone speculate on everything from grand larceny to capital murder.

I suppose what they are attempting to get to is "fraud".

If you are on a vengeance kick, feel free to call law enforcement. Mind you: there are areas of the country where an actual burglary isn't enough to get their attention, but you can have fun.

Of course you are the complaining witness, so prepared to fly out to wherever the trial is held (the local police you are calling are in the county jurisdiction), likely repeatedly. It's going to cost you a lot of time and money and, in the end, net you nothing but the satisfaction of a conviction... if you get one, which seems unlikely since you need to prove it was his *intent* to defraud. The fact that Chris eventually finishes some contracts will likely kill your fraud case.

Also: criminal courts don't give people money. You'll be just as poor (well, likely far more so)

If you want your money back, or your contract fulfilled, and you'd like to use the courts to try to accomplish that (and it's not nearly as fun or easy as it sounds), you are really discussing civil court. Small claims if the amount is low enough (which is also nice because, if you loose, the amount you'll have to pay in his legal bills will be capped).

At this point, I'm not sure who I'm talking to (whomever everyone else is) nor what product we are discussing. I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV... cause if I did I wouldn't tell you these things without billing you.

Criminal courts may impose restitution, if so inclined. The turd that stole my car was ordered to pay my deductible, although they didn't specify a time frame, which meant that I got $15, $25 or nothing every month for well over a year. I finally called his PO and told him that since I had to pay it in a lump sum and it was a major inconvenience to go through the whole thing, the guy who stole it should be inconvenienced a little. It was stolen on Christmas Eve.

Depending on the state, the court may assess treble damages to the complainant, plus expenses (Wisconsin does this in some situations). Sometimes, they just tell the defendant to return any money paid and goods supplied to the defendant.

 

[krzywica]

So you feel that one should only be civil to people who are in the right? That will make some interesting discussions I'm sure.

Don't twist it around....you know what I meant. He shouldn't be treated as a trustworthy individual that has just had "a bad break". The old adage "actions speak louder than words" I think applies here.

Yes, that is an excellent example of non-action speculation.

I only offer that explanation as I am bereft of any conceivable reason for in-action in my own mind.

All I'm saying is that many of the suggestions don't seem geared toward recovery of funds or equipment.

Then maybe someone should attempt to, I don't know, end the string of fraudulent and shady dealings by reporting his actions to the authorities (see I can be sarcastic too ).