To UPS or not to UPS (combine a UPS with an APC H15 power conditioner)

M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
Hi folks,

I'm new here and I just retired the 1980 cathode television and need some help regarding power conditioning and battery backup.

I replaced the TV with a Panasonic TC-P50VT25 plasma and Panasonic DMP-BDT300 BluRay player. In addition to those components, I have an older Pioneer receiver/stereo driving two floor standing Klipsch speakers and a 10 in subwoofer. There is a Wii, Cisco HD DVR cable box, a cable modem, Cisco router, and D-link wireless router. On the same circuit (15A), I have tower PC with dual monitors.

Here's my question...

I own an APC H15 power conditioner and that covers the AV equipment. I also have an APC 1500 VA UPS powering the networking equipment and computer. Would there be any advantage (added protection for my equipment) if I put an APC 1500 VA UPS inline just before the power conditioner?

Here's the diagram now:
Code:
                        > APC UPS > computer, networking
wall > APC surge arrest |
                        > APC H15 > TV, BluRay, Wii, DVR, Receiver, Sub
Is there benefit to the following diagram:

Code:
                        > APC UPS > computer, networking
wall > APC surge arrest |
                        > APC UPS > ACP H15 > TV, BluRay, Wii, DVR, ...
The first APC surge arrest just lets me split the single wall outlet as the bottom outlet is wired to a switch and the nearest additional outlet is poorly placed. (I cannot change this as I do not own the townhouse and am only renting.) There is the possibility that I might be able to rearrange things so the computer is on a separate outlet (same circuit) and I can then remove that APC surge arrest to have the following:

Code:
wall > APC UPS > computer, networking
wall > ACP H15 > TV, BluRay, Wii, DVR, ...
or

Code:
wall > APC UPS > computer, networking
wall > APC UPS > ACP H15 > TV, BluRay, Wii, DVR, ...
All suggestions are welcome and feel free to tell me if I am out in left field...

Thanks,
Mike
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Hi folks,

I'm new here and I just retired the 1980 cathode television and need some help regarding power conditioning and battery backup.

I replaced the TV with a Panasonic TC-P50VT25 plasma and Panasonic DMP-BDT300 BluRay player. In addition to those components, I have an older Pioneer receiver/stereo driving two floor standing Klipsch speakers and a 10 in subwoofer. There is a Wii, Cisco HD DVR cable box, a cable modem, Cisco router, and D-link wireless router. On the same circuit (15A), I have tower PC with dual monitors.

Here's my question...

I own an APC H15 power conditioner and that covers the AV equipment. I also have an APC 1500 VA UPS powering the networking equipment and computer. Would there be any advantage (added protection for my equipment) if I put an APC 1500 VA UPS inline just before the power conditioner?

Here's the diagram now:
Code:
                        > APC UPS > computer, networking
wall > APC surge arrest |
                        > APC H15 > TV, BluRay, Wii, DVR, Receiver, Sub
Is there benefit to the following diagram:

Code:
                        > APC UPS > computer, networking
wall > APC surge arrest |
                        > APC UPS > ACP H15 > TV, BluRay, Wii, DVR, ...
The first APC surge arrest just lets me split the single wall outlet as the bottom outlet is wired to a switch and the nearest additional outlet is poorly placed. (I cannot change this as I do not own the townhouse and am only renting.) There is the possibility that I might be able to rearrange things so the computer is on a separate outlet (same circuit) and I can then remove that APC surge arrest to have the following:

Code:
wall > APC UPS > computer, networking
wall > ACP H15 > TV, BluRay, Wii, DVR, ...
or

Code:
wall > APC UPS > computer, networking
wall > APC UPS > ACP H15 > TV, BluRay, Wii, DVR, ...
All suggestions are welcome and feel free to tell me if I am out in left field...

Thanks,
Mike
You don't generally stack surge suppression devices. You kill the surges where they enter the building and if you need a UPS, you use that where it's necessary. Buy a whole-house surge protector and have it installed at the breaker panel. If you think you'll have a lightning strike near your place, these may not be enough, anyway. For normal surges, one suppressor will be fine as long as it's adequate for the worst surge that's probable.
 
L

LazyBubba

Audiophyte
Hi folks,

I'm new here and I just retired the 1980 cathode television and need some help regarding power conditioning and battery backup.

Here's my question...

I own an APC H15 power conditioner and that covers the AV equipment. I also have an APC 1500 VA UPS powering the networking equipment and computer. Would there be any advantage (added protection for my equipment) if I put an APC 1500 VA UPS inline just before the power conditioner?

All suggestions are welcome and feel free to tell me if I am out in left field...

Thanks,
Mike

Hey Mike,


There's absolutely no benefit in stacking power protection equipment. I had this idea a few years back when my work gave me a few UPSs to take home. I spoke to a few engineers and told me it was pointless.

As a matter of fact, the APC 1500VA is a solid machine that is as good if not better than APC's audio protection product. The unit is a great backup. I get almost 25-30 minutes of run time when the power goes out. Plus, I have surge protection, avr boost/drop and power filtering. If I shut down some hardware I can get even more run time. I spent thousands on all the equipment, why wouldn't I protect it?
 
M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
Thanks Highfigh and LazyBubba!

Highfigh,
The whole house surge protector would be but since I am renting the house I don't have that luxury.

--------------------------------

My concerns are both for surge protection and clean up of dirty power. The one thing I'm not sure about is that the APC UPS outputs a stepped approx. sine wave whereas the APC power conditioner outputs a true sine wave. Since I didn't have the money to spend on a power conditioner with battery backup in a single unit, I purchased the APC H15 power conditioner. The only piece of AV equipment I might want to keep running in the DVR (soon to be replaced by a DVR PC). The other devices don't need to operate during a power outage.

So I guess, since I have the APC H15 power conditioner, that should protect my equipment and I don't need the APC UPS.

I end up with the following questions: Which is better for the protection of the equipment, a UPS or power conditioner? If I wanted battery backup, could I just replace the power conditioner with a UPS and still have the same level of protection?

Just don't want to lose the $2k TV and other equipment. The APC 1500 VA has done a good job over the years protecting the computer. Just trying to figure out what to do with the H15. I've never had a good TV or DVR before.
 
M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
Do most people use a UPS to protect their equipment or a power conditioner?
 
L

LazyBubba

Audiophyte
Thanks Highfigh and LazyBubba!

Highfigh,
The whole house surge protector would be but since I am renting the house I don't have that luxury.

--------------------------------

My concerns are both for surge protection and clean up of dirty power. The one thing I'm not sure about is that the APC UPS outputs a stepped approx. sine wave whereas the APC power conditioner outputs a true sine wave. Since I didn't have the money to spend on a power conditioner with battery backup in a single unit, I purchased the APC H15 power conditioner. The only piece of AV equipment I might want to keep running in the DVR (soon to be replaced by a DVR PC). The other devices don't need to operate during a power outage.

So I guess, since I have the APC H15 power conditioner, that should protect my equipment and I don't need the APC UPS.

I end up with the following questions: Which is better for the protection of the equipment, a UPS or power conditioner? If I wanted battery backup, could I just replace the power conditioner with a UPS and still have the same level of protection?

Just don't want to lose the $2k TV and other equipment. The APC 1500 VA has done a good job over the years protecting the computer. Just trying to figure out what to do with the H15. I've never had a good TV or DVR before.

Hey,


I thought you were talking about a line interactive 1500 which outputs a sine wave. Which model of the 1500VA do you have?
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
I end up with the following questions: Which is better for the protection of the equipment, a UPS or power conditioner? If I wanted battery backup, could I just replace the power conditioner with a UPS and still have the same level of protection?
A UPS and a power conditioner share only one thing in common - surge suppresion.

A power conditioner is supposed to clean up 'dirty' power but most places have fairly reliable and clean power and the power conditioner just isn't necessary. I used to have an APC H10 but sold it, mainly because the stupid blue LEDs are too annoying for my eyes and not so much because it doesn't do anything. My opinion is that a power conditioner is nice as a surge suppressor and convenient place to plug everything into. Beyond that, it will not make music sound better or video look better.

A UPS is for surge suppression and battery backup in the event of a power outage and is also a convenient place to plug everything into. Many have AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulation) which keeps the voltage within a defined range around 120 volts . The power conditioner does that too but adds the additional 'filtering' that is supposed to clean up the power while the UPS does not do any filtering.

I wouldn't worry about the step approximation sine wave. The purpose of the UPS is really just to allow you to shut everything off in an orderly manner if a power outage occurs and not necessarily to keep watching TV or listen to music while the power is out. It may be true that some AV equipment won't like anything other than a true sine wave but if it can deal with a stepped approximation sine wave, I doubt you'll be able to tell any difference in picture or audio quality while it is running on battery backup. The computers, DVR, modem, router, etc have no problem whatsoever with a stepped approximation sine wave from a UPS (all of mine are connected to a single APC UPS).

One thing about 'stacking' surge suppression devices. Others have pointed out that it adds no protection, but I recall reading on the APC site that it is not advisable to connect the UPS to a surge suppressor. The reason is that the surge suppressor is far slower than the UPS in reacting to a surge and will get in the way of the UPS. Connecting a surge suppressor to the UPS is apparently OK.

I'd ditch the power conditioner and keep the UPS.
 
M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
Hey,


I thought you were talking about a line interactive 1500 which outputs a sine wave. Which model of the 1500VA do you have?
Well now...It appears I cannot submit links...until I have 5 posts...fine 4.
 
Last edited:
M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
A UPS and a power conditioner share only one thing in common - surge suppresion.

A power conditioner is supposed to clean up 'dirty' power but most places have fairly reliable and clean power and the power conditioner just isn't necessary. I used to have an APC H10 but sold it, mainly because the stupid blue LEDs are too annoying for my eyes and not so much because it doesn't do anything. My opinion is that a power conditioner is nice as a surge suppressor and convenient place to plug everything into. Beyond that, it will not make music sound better or video look better.

A UPS is for surge suppression and battery backup in the event of a power outage and is also a convenient place to plug everything into. Many have AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulation) which keeps the voltage within a defined range around 120 volts . The power conditioner does that too but adds the additional 'filtering' that is supposed to clean up the power while the UPS does not do any filtering.

I wouldn't worry about the step approximation sine wave. The purpose of the UPS is really just to allow you to shut everything off in an orderly manner if a power outage occurs and not necessarily to keep watching TV or listen to music while the power is out. It may be true that some AV equipment won't like anything other than a true sine wave but if it can deal with a stepped approximation sine wave, I doubt you'll be able to tell any difference in picture or audio quality while it is running on battery backup. The computers, DVR, modem, router, etc have no problem whatsoever with a stepped approximation sine wave from a UPS (all of mine are connected to a single APC UPS).

One thing about 'stacking' surge suppression devices. Others have pointed out that it adds no protection, but I recall reading on the APC site that it is not advisable to connect the UPS to a surge suppressor. The reason is that the surge suppressor is far slower than the UPS in reacting to a surge and will get in the way of the UPS. Connecting a surge suppressor to the UPS is apparently OK.

I'd ditch the power conditioner and keep the UPS.
Thanks for all the helpful information.

Is there a way to tell if one has "dirty" power and if the power conditioner would be useful?

I guess I'll have to see if the H15 is sellable. Otherwise, I guess I'll put it in line between the UPS and equipment as in final diagram.

My aim is best protection at the best price. Obviously, if I could afford a $600 - $800 solution I would. But, on a young professional, student loan paying budge, I do what I can!
 
M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
They aren't the same thing, so what is needed depends on the system and the conditions.
Do you have any advice on determining the conditions?

(Thanks for the help so far!)
 
M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
Last edited:
W

westom

Audioholic
Do most people use a UPS to protect their equipment or a power conditioner?
Many do only because a sales brochure says it does what manufacturer specs says it does not. Those who read the manufacturer's numeric specifications learn why sales brochures routinely spin and lie.

Did you ignore the number? How many joules in that UPS? Hundreds? Then it has near-zero protection. Just enough above zero so that a sales brochure can claim 100% protection.

All electronics contains line conditioning equal or superior to what you have purchased. For example, this 120 volt UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Power so 'dirty' as to threaten power strip protectors and small electric motors. And perfectly ideal and perfect power for all electronics. Why? Electronics even 40 years ago contained robust protection that makes dirty UPS power irrelevant. Today's electronics are even more robust.

It is called a strawman. First they invent a threat that does not exist. Then they sell solutions for that mythical threat at obscene profits.

Worry about an electrical anomaly that can overwhelm protection inside appliances. That threat cannot be averted by anything inside the house. That threat must be solved when wires enter the building. A solution that always requires a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth.

Do you want uninterrupted power? Harmonic protection? Noise elimination? Voltage regulation? Power factor correction? What is this anomaly you are trying to solve? Most are solved either inside every electronic appliance or by one 'whole house' protector at the service entrance. The only anomaly solved by a UPS is blackouts - uninterrupted power.

Locate that UPS on any wall receptacle on the same branch circuit. The protection circuit remains completely unchanged. That's right. The surge protection circuit is unchanged no matter where in the branch circuit an appliance is powered. But if they told you how the protector really connects, then you would not buy a second or fourth UPS.

What anomaly are you trying to solve? Clean power is the strawman that increases sales. That even sells some power strip protector circuits (ten cent protector parts) as line conditioners ... for $hundreds. Every question you have is answered only in manufacturer spec numbers. Routine is to spin and lie in sales brochures - because lying there is legal. What do spec numbers say?

Read specs on that APC power conditioner. It is nothing more than a power strip protector inside a more expensive chassis. Read the manufacturer specifications - not subjective sales claims. It is a power strip protector relabeled as a power conditioner.
 
M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
What anomaly are you trying to solve? Clean power is the strawman that increases sales. That even sells some power strip protector circuits (ten cent protector parts) as line conditioners ... for $hundreds. Every question you have is answered only in manufacturer spec numbers. Routine is to spin and lie in sales brochures - because lying there is legal. What do spec numbers say?

Read specs on that APC power conditioner. It is nothing more than a power strip protector inside a more expensive chassis. Read the manufacturer specifications - not subjective sales claims. It is a power strip protector relabeled as a power conditioner.
Hi westom,

I 100% agree that the right product should be purchased to solve the right problem. Given the fact that today's electronics are capable of handling relatively dirty power, I would there are two issues I am interested in mitigating (notice I did not say solve or resolve).

  • Protection to mitigate average power spikes (surges) and dips (brownouts). This protection on AC line, cable, data, and phone.
  • Protection to mitigate blackouts allowing enough time to shut equipment down properly in and without data loss.

Lets look at #2 as it is easier. The obvious product to support mitigating a blackout is an uninterrupted power supply (UPS). If we purchase a UPS for that purpose then the purchase is warranted as it mitigates the intended problem (to some degree).

Lets look at #1A, power surges. I've read and have to agree that there are two important components that are needed for mitigation of the most extreme surges. First, you proper and adequate grounds. Second, a whole-house solution. I agree with these recommendations and products to aid mitigation of surges. However, installing these products is not under my control as I am renting.

Lets look at #1B, brownouts. From my understanding, one way to mitigate brownouts (that is at least affordable to the consumer - read "me") is a UPS to supplement the in coming power through the use of a battery.

Now that we have looked at each problem we see that a UPS would probably best suit mitigating (to some degree) two of my problems (#1B and #2). Because I cannot change the infrastructure of the building (that is, install a whole house product) to mitigate #1A, I need to employ "local" mitigation techniques. That is, the use of "surge protectors" (power strips as we know them), power conditioners (power strips on steroids), or a UPS with limited surge protection (another power strip).

Since I have the APC H15, and I don't know if I could sell it or not, lets work with what I have.

But first, the numbers.

Code:
[B]UPS #1 (owned for many years): Back-UPS XS 1500VA RETAIL [/B]

Surge energy rating: 
420 Joules

Filtering: 
Full time multi-pole noise filtering : 5% IEEE surge let-through : zero clamping response time : meets UL 1449

Data Line Protection:
RJ-11 Modem/Fax/DSL protection (two wire single line)

Output Power Capacity:
865 Watts / 1500 V

[B]Power conditioner #1 (owned for short time): [/B]

Surge energy rating:
5270 Joules

EMI/RFI Noise rejection (100 kHz to 10 MHz):
50 dB

Peak Current Normal Mode:
80 (/PH) kAmps

Peak Current Common Mode:
160 kAmps

Data Line Protection:
RJ-11 2-Way Modem/Fax/DSL splitter with protection (four wire dual lines),Co-axial Video / Cable protection,Coaxial 2-Way splitter with protection

Let Through Voltage Rating:
< 40

[B]Power strip #1 ("surge protector"): APC Network SurgeArrest, 8 outlet, network line protection 
[/B]
Surge energy rating:
480 Joules

eP Joule Rating:
3420

EMI/RFI Noise rejection (100 kHz to 10 MHz):
70 dB

Peak Current Normal Mode:
13 kAmps

Peak Current Common Mode:
26 kAmps

Data Line Protection:
RJ45 10/100 Base-T Token Ring

Let Through Voltage Rating:
< 40
Looking at the numbers, the "best" surge protection in joules is the power conditioner at 5270 Joules. The others are only a couple of hundred and would protect minor surges through typical power distribution.

The UPS #1 mitigates blackouts. Power strip #1 offers very limited protection but does offer network cable protection. That said, if your network lines don't go "through" the building, what protection are you getting when the cable line and power lines have "some" protection.

The numbers tell me that if I want the best local surge protection, I should keep the power conditioner. To mitigate blackouts, I should add a UPS before the power conditioner. That gives us the following desirable design within the limitations of the project:

Code:
wall > APC UPS > computer, networking
wall > APC UPS > ACP H15 > TV, BluRay, Wii, DVR, ..
.

Comments?
 
W

westom

Audioholic
Looking at the numbers, the "best" surge protection in joules is the power conditioner at 5270 Joules. The others are only a couple of hundred and would protect minor surges through typical power distribution.
So which number claims protection from each type of surge? No number is posted. It says what is inside. And makes no protection claims. Most of what is inside is already done better inside electronics.

First destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. So each protector will absorb that energy or magically make that energy disappear? Nonsense. That a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $7 in a grocery store. Or $25 or $150 as a hyped protector. Or the equivalent protector circuit is in the power conditioner for how much? Maybe 50% of the price is total profit.

Surges seek earth ground. No protector - not even the 'whole house' protector - does protection. A protector must have an always short connection to the only thing that does protection. From Dr Kenneth Schneider:
>Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to ground. Once a threatening surge
> is detected, a lightning protection device grounds the incoming signal connection point
> of the equipment being protected. Thus, redirecting the threatening surge on a path-of-least
> resistance (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.
>Any lightning protection device must be composed of two "subsystems," a switch which is
> essentially some type of switching circuitry and a good ground connection-to allow
> dissipation of the surge energy. The switch, of course, dominates the design and the
> cost. Yet, the need for a good ground connection can not be emphasized enough.
> Computer equipment has been damaged by lightning, not because of the absence of a
> protection device, but because inadequate attention was paid to grounding the device
> properly.

Where is a 'less than 10 foot' connection to single point earth ground? Since it does not exist, then where does all that energy dissipate?

BTW, some numbers make no sense. For example a let-through voltage of 40 is obviously wrong. Let-through voltages are 330 or 400 volts. A protector does nothing - remains inert - until 120 volts exceed 330 volts.

Nothing in those specs lists each type of surge and protection from those surges. So learn what all protectors do.

A surge seeks earth ground. Either a surge is earthed before it enters the building. Then hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside the building. Any facility that can never have damage only uses this solution.

Or that surge is inside a building hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Nothing inside the building - ie APC products - can stop the hunt. Or even claim to. A surge increases its voltage as necessary to blow through anything that might stop it. Surges inside a building select and damage an appliance. Nothing inside a building averts a hunt destructively via an appliance. Nothing.

So your specs imply protection exists. And will not even discuss the surge that typically does damage. You know it does not do protection. It does not have the always required short (less than 10 foot) and dedicated wire to earth ground. Where does energy dissiapte? Your every post must discuss that answer.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Reliable facilities only earth 'whole house' protectors. Reliable facilities divert that money, instead, into the only thing that does surge protection - single point earth ground. Your every question must be based in this reality. Protection is always about where energy dissipates.

Dr Martzloff says plug-in (point of connection) protector can even contribute to appliance damage. In his IEEE paper is this first conclusion:
> Conclusion:
> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference
> in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are
> present at the point of connection of appliances.

Nothing adjacent to the appliance will stop the hunt. Nothing. But that myth is so profitable that a majority will just blindly believe the myth.

You know the manufacturer does not provide protection. 1) The protector does not have an 'always' required short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. 2) The manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing. Where does energy dissipate? Why is earthing so critical? The NIST (US government research agency) says what those protectors without earthing do:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting
> the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding
> is not done properly.

APCs were defined ineffective. The NIST is blunter. NIST says money spent on plug-in protection is "useless". Protection is ... always ... about where energy dissipates. A solution that costs you tens or 100 times less money. I do not exaggerate. The effective solution does not have massive profit margins to pay for advertising and other myths.

No earth ground means no effective protection. No protector does protection. Protector circuits connect energy to the only thing that absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules - single point earth ground. How do 1755 and never more 3510 joules absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. And so those specifications list no protection from each type of surge.

One claims to divert 160 kamps. Where? Traditionally to earth destructively via adjacent appliances. They forgot to claim protection in the only place they cannot lie. Where does that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? No hard facts because it does not provide effective protection. That power conditioner is a power strip protector with a higher price. So do you believe hearsay and advertising? Or do industry professionals - IEEE papers, NIST, Dr Schneider, etc – dominate your knowledge? Those APC specs do not claim protection from any type of surge. What they forget to mention – it protects from a type of surge that does not typically cause damage.

Buy a UPS only for temporary and 'dirty' power. Surge protection must be located elsewhere.
 
M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
Then a UPS will fulfill my two requirements:

1. Protection to mitigate average power spikes (surges) and dips (brownouts). This protection on AC line, cable, data, and phone.
2. Protection to mitigate blackouts allowing enough time to shut equipment down properly in and without data loss.

It sounds like you advocate nothing more than just plug it in and go in my situation. Ok, that's fine, then a UPS will give me some backup during blackouts and extra outlets. Good enough.

Unless you can provide me another viable solution for my situation. Keep it simple.
 
L

LazyBubba

Audiophyte
They aren't the same thing, so what is needed depends on the system and the conditions.
It's always better to have a good UPS as they already have a power condition built in to them,
 
L

LazyBubba

Audiophyte
Thanks for all the helpful information.

Is there a way to tell if one has "dirty" power and if the power conditioner would be useful?

I guess I'll have to see if the H15 is sellable. Otherwise, I guess I'll put it in line between the UPS and equipment as in final diagram.

My aim is best protection at the best price. Obviously, if I could afford a $600 - $800 solution I would. But, on a young professional, student loan paying budge, I do what I can!

By far your best solution is to get a good high quality line interactive UPS. They filter power, they offer surge protection, output a sine wave and will provide run time.


Forget the power conditioners and surge suppressors.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
By far your best solution is to get a good high quality line interactive UPS. They filter power, they offer surge protection, output a sine wave and will provide run time.
They are also quite expensive and often have fans too.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
Westom certainly earns points for consistency... :rolleyes:

Funny how none of his sources reference a 10' (or less) connection to earth ground even though that's a central tenant of his claims. He also doesn't seem to understand that the electrical neutral and ground are both connected to earth ground at the electrical panel.

That said a UPS isn't typically the best surge protector. They don't have high joule ratings.
 

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