It's Been Said That "Speakers are What Matters," and so...

[Pyrrho]

Me too, but I doubt that many receivers can get much more than a few gurgles out of an Apogee before it went up in smoke. Magnepans are nice. The ones in the same price range of the Infinity’s would need a sub though. I ended up getting planner hybrids. They give me a taste of those sweet mids while still deliverying the lower punch that makes rock so enjoyable.

Apogee speakers differ considerably in their impedance. The very early ones are the ones with the incredibly low impedances, like the Full Range with a 0.3 ohm nominal impedance (though they had a transformer to run them at 4 ohms) and the Scintilla with a 1 ohm nominal impedance (early ones had a 4 ohm option as well).

The Duetta had a 4 ohm impedance. The Caliper had a 3 ohm impedance, as did the Caliper Signature. The Duetta II had a nominal impedance of 4 ohms (according to Stereophile, but a measured low of no less than 5 ohms). The Duetta Signature had a 4 ohm nominal impedance, with a low of 3.2 ohms. The Diva was 3 ohms, as was the Stage (which is what I own). The Studio Ribbon Array was 4 ohms nominally with a minimum impedance of 3.25 ohms.

Of course, these also tend to be inefficient, so higher power than usual at these relatively low impedances is needed, though they vary considerably on efficiency as well. But the impedances also tend to be mostly resistive, which makes them less bad than they could be for amplifiers.

You can read about them at:

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/


I ran my Stages for a time with a Pioneer SX-1250 receiver, which is supposed to be used with speakers rated 4 ohms or higher, but I did not run it that way for long, and bought a power amp that has no trouble with loads lower than 4 ohms, and is rated at an incredible 1250 watts per channel into 2 ohms (though I am not sure that I believe them, it does not need to put out anywhere near that much power). I suspect that I could have gotten away with just running them with that Pioneer, though it isn't just any receiver, so that does not disprove your point.

 

[TLS Guy]

I wasn't commenting on any one quote but in general. But know that you brought up horns, there are some absolute classic horn loaded speakers (single drive) like the Lowther that if many would get a chance to hear should. Albeit the concept that most akin horns to is klispch horn loaded tweeters, the term horn gets localized with klipsch

Lowther: - Now we are getting esoteric! The worlds oldest speaker company with direct routes to their founder, the great Paul Voight back in the thirties. I knew his associate Paul Chave very well, he guided the company though the fifties and sixties until his untimely death.

The latest Lowther offerings properly set up can be beguiling. The OP would not have room in his bedroom for them even though they have only one 6" speaker and no crossovers. The easiest speaker load around. The OP would probably use less than a watt of power from his receiver in a bedroom!

Seriously though the OP is now sensibly discussing how to get better sound on his two channel system. If he wants small footprint towers then I think if he can swing it the Salk towers would be his best bet.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Well fellas, as usual, the thread has gone into a different direction and spiraled into members discussing/quasi-arguing differences between certain audiophile-grade speakers and their impedance loads and if the speakers can brew a pot of coffee on their own, et. al.; for what it's worth and for my part, I can only say this right now...I have managed to straighten out the Sanus stands the R20's are sitting on and balanced the speakers on their plate spikes on the stands, so that the weight is distributed a bit better, thus the leaning issue is improved -- so at the moment, even though they're not high-end monitors, I suppose I will keep the R20's in the 2-channel system as they really do sound punchy and awake connected to the TX-8555 at least for awhile until I can scrape up some funds for good floorstanders.

Just one other thing...With everyone pretty much recommending the Infinity Primuses, are these really that "cheap" of a speaker? I mean, I wanted something affordable, but not super low-end...how "budget" are the Infinitys?

 

[Alex2507]

...how "budget" are the Infinitys?

http://completed.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=Infinity+P362&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_okw=Infinity+P362&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=Zip+code&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_rdc=1

 

[just listening]

Well fellas, as usual, the thread has gone into a different direction and spiraled into members discussing/quasi-arguing differences between certain audiophile-grade speakers and their impedance loads and if the speakers can brew a pot of coffee on their own, et. al.; for what it's worth and for my part, I can only say this right now...I have managed to straighten out the Sanus stands the R20's are sitting on and balanced the speakers on their plate spikes on the stands, so that the weight is distributed a bit better, thus the leaning issue is improved -- so at the moment, even though they're not high-end monitors, I suppose I will keep the R20's in the 2-channel system as they really do sound punchy and awake connected to the TX-8555 at least for awhile until I can scrape up some funds for good floorstanders.

Just one other thing...With everyone pretty much recommending the Infinity Primuses, are these really that "cheap" of a speaker? I mean, I wanted something affordable, but not super low-end...how "budget" are the Infinitys?

The Primus' are a budget speaker, therefore, like any budget speaker you will be hearing compromises. Will they be an improvement over your Polk 20's, yes, so you'll appreciate the change. But keep in mind this hobby can be addictive and you may find yourself constantly looking at the next step.

Personally, if you can find the funds move up to the Aperion 4T or 5T, for my money they are a better speaker on many levels. Plus you can try them for 30 days with free shipping both ways.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

http://completed.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=Infinity+P362&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_okw=Infinity+P362&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=Zip+code&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_rdc=1

Nothing to see on that page...

 

[PearlcorderS701]

The Primus' are a budget speaker, therefore, like any budget speaker you will be hearing compromises. Will they be an improvement over your Polk 20's, yes, so you'll appreciate the change. But keep in mind this hobby can be addictive and you may find yourself constantly looking at the next step.

Personally, if you can find the funds move up to the Aperion 4T or 5T, for my money they are a better speaker on many levels. Plus you can try them for 30 days with free shipping both ways.

Thank you for your honest assesment and opinion here; would it make sense, let me ask you, to look beyond the Infinitys? I mean, I don't have a loyalty to one speaker company, so it doesn't have to be Infinity; I was only referencing them because the first few replys in this thread suggested the Primuses...

 

[Alex2507]

Nothing to see on that page...

It doesn't ask you to log onto eBay or anything to view a completed listing search? Okay, do your own advanced search on eBay and check completed listings. My results showed ~ $125 each would get them to your door as a won auction item from the Harman Audio store but you kind of have to work that with waiting for them to be available and getting them for your price. Right now they have a 360 which I haven't seen up for auction but it's only for one and there is no telling when you'll see another if ever.

AH has them for $200 each. That's affordable and it's been said that they sound good. I'd personally like a pair of Songtowers but I'm not sure they make 'em with the black vinyl veneer that I insist on.

 

[bandphan]

Well fellas, as usual, the thread has gone into a different direction and spiraled

Nothing to see on that page...

 

[Pyrrho]

Well fellas, as usual, the thread has gone into a different direction and spiraled into members discussing/quasi-arguing differences between certain audiophile-grade speakers and their impedance loads and if the speakers can brew a pot of coffee on their own, et. al.; for what it's worth and for my part, I can only say this right now...I have managed to straighten out the Sanus stands the R20's are sitting on and balanced the speakers on their plate spikes on the stands, so that the weight is distributed a bit better, thus the leaning issue is improved -- so at the moment, even though they're not high-end monitors, I suppose I will keep the R20's in the 2-channel system as they really do sound punchy and awake connected to the TX-8555 at least for awhile until I can scrape up some funds for good floorstanders.

Just one other thing...With everyone pretty much recommending the Infinity Primuses, are these really that "cheap" of a speaker? I mean, I wanted something affordable, but not super low-end...how "budget" are the Infinitys?

What you need to do is go listen to as many different speakers, and as many types of speakers (e.g., domes, horns, ribbons, whatever) as you can stand, that are within your price range. With all speakers, even at the higher end of things, there are compromises and imperfections, and it is all a question of which imperfections are ones you can live with. And no one can tell you which things matter to you, so there is no real escape from this, even if, as you say, it is not convenient for you to go audition speakers.


If you can afford $600, and have the room for them, I would go with Magnepan MMG:

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG

Your receiver, I believe, can handle a 4 ohm load (consult your manual to double check before you buy), and as they are an honest 4 ohms (no nasty really low dips in the impedance curve), you should be fine with them.

But it really depends upon what matters to you in your speakers. For me, there is nothing that I would choose over them at that price point, and it will give you a glimpse of high end sound at a reasonable price. But they will not play super loud, and the bass is lean, though the bass that is there is very realistic sounding (if you listen to jazz with an acoustic bass, you will probably be amazed at the realism). You can read many reviews online of them. Unfortunately, you cannot listen to them in stores, though you could listen to one model up (if there is a Magnepan dealer in your area), and realize that the MMG is not quite as good as one model up (though, in my opinion, closer than its price would suggest, probably due to it being available factory direct).

At a price lower, you might want to consider the bottom of the LSi line from Polk, or the bottom of the RTi line from Polk, along with quality metal stands (I know, you said you want floorstanding speakers, but if your budget is below $600, I think bookshelf speakers are the way to go), both of which you can get a discount on for refurbished models sold direct from Polk on eBay, with warranty. (You can get quality steel stands from places like Parts Express for a decent price; make sure you get some with the right sized metal top for the speakers you get/have.) I have not heard the latest from Polk, but in the past, I have tended to think that the bottom of the line that has real wood veneer from Polk is a good value when purchased at real world prices, and I would be surprised if that is no longer the case, but I freely admit that I have not heard their latest models.

 

[just listening]

The Magnepan MMG's would be an excellent choice IF the OP had an amp that could truly drive the MMG's. Magnepan's are notoriously hard on amps as they start at 4 Ohm and drop from there. The same holds true for Polk's LSi series with the exception of the smallest LSi7 at 6 Ohms. The TX-8555 with all due respect, would be a very temporary solution at best.

 

[3db]

Per one of my earlier posts, I do not have access to any demo rooms save for a Best Buy and Frys -- the Best Buy location in particular I would absolutely buy nothing from, nor would I demo anything there.

Wow.. what do you have in your neighbouirhood that you can audition?

 

[Pyrrho]

The Magnepan MMG's would be an excellent choice IF the OP had an amp that could truly drive the MMG's. Magnepan's are notoriously hard on amps as they start at 4 Ohm and drop from there. The same holds true for Polk's LSi series with the exception of the smallest LSi7 at 6 Ohms. The TX-8555 with all due respect, would be a very temporary solution at best.

I believe if you measured the impedance you would find that you are mistaken about it. I am reasonably certain that the MMG has no nasty low impedance dips and is honestly a 4 ohm speaker, which acts as a mostly resistive load, which is relatively easy on amplifiers. (If anyone has a link to a graph of an impedance curve for the MMG, please post a response with it to verify this one way or another.) Still, they are inefficient, and they are 4 ohms, so there is going to be a limited maximum volume that one is going to get from them with that receiver (though as far as that goes, if one is wanting to recreate the loudest Who concert ever, they will not be able to with the MMG with any amplifier).

 

[gmichael]

I believe if you measured the impedance you would find that you are mistaken about it. I am reasonably certain that the MMG has no nasty low impedance dips and is honestly a 4 ohm speaker, which acts as a mostly resistive load, which is relatively easy on amplifiers. (If anyone has a link to a graph of an impedance curve for the MMG, please post a response with it to verify this one way or another.) Still, they are inefficient, and they are 4 ohms, so there is going to be a limited maximum volume that one is going to get from them with that receiver (though as far as that goes, if one is wanting to recreate the loudest Who concert ever, they will not be able to with the MMG with any amplifier).

I believe that you are right about the MMG. Not that hard to drive, but would still not be at their best mated with most receivers. And even at their best, they will need a sub.
I love the sound of Magnepans. They are part of the reason that I ended up with planner hybrids.

 

[gmichael]

Well fellas, as usual, the thread has gone into a different direction and spiraled into members discussing/quasi-arguing differences between certain audiophile-grade speakers and their impedance loads and if the speakers can brew a pot of coffee on their own, et. al.; for what it's worth and for my part, I can only say this right now...I have managed to straighten out the Sanus stands the R20's are sitting on and balanced the speakers on their plate spikes on the stands, so that the weight is distributed a bit better, thus the leaning issue is improved -- so at the moment, even though they're not high-end monitors, I suppose I will keep the R20's in the 2-channel system as they really do sound punchy and awake connected to the TX-8555 at least for awhile until I can scrape up some funds for good floorstanders.

Just one other thing...With everyone pretty much recommending the Infinity Primuses, are these really that "cheap" of a speaker? I mean, I wanted something affordable, but not super low-end...how "budget" are the Infinitys?

The Infinity Primus line gets recommended because they offer very good sound at a reasonable price. Better speakers can be had for sure, but they will cost you. How much are you looking to spend? What kind of music do you play? Do you like it loud or soft? How much room do you have?

 

[allargon]

What you need to do is go listen to as many different speakers, and as many types of speakers (e.g., domes, horns, ribbons, whatever) as you can stand, that are within your price range. With all speakers, even at the higher end of things, there are compromises and imperfections, and it is all a question of which imperfections are ones you can live with. And no one can tell you which things matter to you, so there is no real escape from this, even if, as you say, it is not convenient for you to go audition speakers.


If you can afford $600, and have the room for them, I would go with Magnepan MMG:

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG

Your receiver, I believe, can handle a 4 ohm load (consult your manual to double check before you buy), and as they are an honest 4 ohms (no nasty really low dips in the impedance curve), you should be fine with them.

But it really depends upon what matters to you in your speakers. For me, there is nothing that I would choose over them at that price point, and it will give you a glimpse of high end sound at a reasonable price. But they will not play super loud, and the bass is lean, though the bass that is there is very realistic sounding (if you listen to jazz with an acoustic bass, you will probably be amazed at the realism). You can read many reviews online of them. Unfortunately, you cannot listen to them in stores, though you could listen to one model up (if there is a Magnepan dealer in your area), and realize that the MMG is not quite as good as one model up (though, in my opinion, closer than its price would suggest, probably due to it being available factory direct).

At a price lower, you might want to consider the bottom of the LSi line from Polk, or the bottom of the RTi line from Polk, along with quality metal stands (I know, you said you want floorstanding speakers, but if your budget is below $600, I think bookshelf speakers are the way to go), both of which you can get a discount on for refurbished models sold direct from Polk on eBay, with warranty. (You can get quality steel stands from places like Parts Express for a decent price; make sure you get some with the right sized metal top for the speakers you get/have.) I have not heard the latest from Polk, but in the past, I have tended to think that the bottom of the line that has real wood veneer from Polk is a good value when purchased at real world prices, and I would be surprised if that is no longer the case, but I freely admit that I have not heard their latest models.

I had no idea Magnepan's were that inexpensive. I always thought BG Radia had the lowest priced planar ribbon (tweeters).

Fry's usually has Polks on sale. Admittedly, the higher lines like the RtiA9 only go on sale once a year (when the newer ones come out and the older models like the Rti12? get discontinued).

 

[just listening]

I believe if you measured the impedance you would find that you are mistaken about it. I am reasonably certain that the MMG has no nasty low impedance dips and is honestly a 4 ohm speaker, which acts as a mostly resistive load, which is relatively easy on amplifiers. (If anyone has a link to a graph of an impedance curve for the MMG, please post a response with it to verify this one way or another.) Still, they are inefficient, and they are 4 ohms, so there is going to be a limited maximum volume that one is going to get from them with that receiver (though as far as that goes, if one is wanting to recreate the loudest Who concert ever, they will not be able to with the MMG with any amplifier).

Pyrrho:
4 Ohm loads are NOT easy on budget receivers, just ask the LSi owners on the Polk forum. Plus, as you then correctly point out the inefficiency of Maggies, I would add makes for a difficult time in reproducing dynamic moments with proper impact, and it doesn't have to be concert volume.

I would like to see a graph as well, however, I doubt if there are any out there. Now if the OP wants to rebuild his system, around truly beefy amplification, hell yes, the MMG's would get my vote as a finalist.

 

[caper26]

Did you ever decide on a new pair?

 

[Pyrrho]

Pyrrho:
4 Ohm loads are NOT easy on budget receivers, just ask the LSi owners on the Polk forum. Plus, as you then correctly point out the inefficiency of Maggies, I would add makes for a difficult time in reproducing dynamic moments with proper impact, and it doesn't have to be concert volume.

I would like to see a graph as well, however, I doubt if there are any out there. Now if the OP wants to rebuild his system, around truly beefy amplification, hell yes, the MMG's would get my vote as a finalist.

It does not matter what problems people have with Polk LSi speakers when discussing Magnepan speakers. This is because, even though the manufacturers give them the same nominal impedance rating, they are not going to have the same impedance curve (i.e., they will be different impedances from each other at various frequencies). If, for example, the Polks dip down below 4 ohms significantly, that would make them a more difficult load than with a 4 ohm speaker that does not have such a dip. And, of course, it matters what frequency the dip occurs, as typically one needs to put out more power into lower frequencies than in high frequencies, so two different speakers having the same minimum impedance can also be quite different loads on amplifiers.

Judging the matter from the specifications in the manual for the Onkyo TX-8555, it would be okay with the Magnepan MMG speakers if one had a normal sized room (not too large) and one did not listen at rock concert sound levels (too loud). If one wanted maximum bass thump, or deafening sound levels, then these speakers would be a poor choice. So it really depends upon the listener whether or not the MMG would be a good choice or not.

 

[3db]

Pyrrho:
4 Ohm loads are NOT easy on budget receivers, just ask the LSi owners on the Polk forum. Plus, as you then correctly point out the inefficiency of Maggies, I would add makes for a difficult time in reproducing dynamic moments with proper impact, and it doesn't have to be concert volume.

I would like to see a graph as well, however, I doubt if there are any out there. Now if the OP wants to rebuild his system, around truly beefy amplification, hell yes, the MMG's would get my vote as a finalist.

What Pryo is stating that the Magenpans are mostly resisitive in their impedance compared to that of conventional loud speakers Convenetial speakers impedance has a large reactive component. That means that the power delivered to the Magenepans will have a greater pecentage applied to the actual resistive load than that of the Polks. That same power when delivered to the Polks will have a larger component waisted on the reactive part of the speaker impedance and less power delivered to the resistive part. Its the resistive component of the impedance that directly influences how loud the speaker will play.