All amps sound the same??? (Read Inside)

[bandphan]

Hello

They are identical in spec but not in sonics. The new square series amps were built and entirely influenced by the their top amp....28B. The build philosphy was to incorporate their "first to last watt" philosphy in playback.
This has changed the tone of the new 4B's considerably compared to the sst series.

It won't let me link but this all can be found on the Bryston website.

Some people prefer the sst series over the new amps. Its just their taste between to amps that basically spec the same but have different internals.

Again dollars to donuts, in a dbt you can't tell the difference 4 out of 10 times.

 

[werd]

Again dollars to donuts, in a dbt you can't tell the difference 4 out of 10 times.

In my own system at home.... of course easy 10 out of 10 np.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... And if your amp stinks it will sound terrible.

And it will also smell bad

 

[bandphan]

In my own system at home.... of course easy 10 out of 10 np.

Before I visit the worms, I'd be willing to risk any amount you want on 10 out of 10, anything and I've got nothing to lose believe me. I know I'm not going to change your mind but I can certainly prove it, golden ears and all.

Edit: we need the cash, so please let me know.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Add to those names Marantz and Primare - never could tell the difference while NOT abusing the amp....

You mean a hammer blow sounds different on their chassis?

 

[ski2xblack]

Making Jimi Hendrix sound like Mozart is about as far from "convincingly real" as one can get. Now, if that is what you like, that is fine, but let us not fool ourselves into thinking that it is more real that way.

Who said anything about making Jimi sound like Mozart, aside from you? I certainly made no such claim, just sharing some observations regarding some of the amps I've heard, which seemed germane to the discussion in this thread.

The Pass amp rates ~1THD at rated output, primarily low order, mostly 2nd. Is that outside your standards of technical/moral purity? Maybe so, but they do sound qualitatively different, in my opinion better, than your average class AB amp. The guy with the belle upthread (adwilk?) would probably agree, as he described it as outstanding from the pack of amps he tried. I'm not trying to fool you or anyone else, just opinionating as the OP requested, so relax with the Jimi/Mozart hyperbole.

Ooo, I see somebody dead-horsed this thread.

 

[PENG]

In my own system at home.... of course easy 10 out of 10 np.

I talked to Bryston before and was not told they sound different. I can't remember exactly what he said but basically should sound the same. Is it just you perception that they sound different or you know for a fact Bryston made them sound different. If it is the latter then I would have to talk to Bryston again about it.

 

[PENG]

Before I visit the worms, I'd be willing to risk any amount you want on 10 out of 10, anything and I've got nothing to lose believe me. I know I'm not going to change your mind but I can certainly prove it, golden ears and all.

Edit: we need the cash, so please let me know.

I also need money for my dream B&W speakers, so let me know too..

 

[costanza]

I recently compared a Panasonic SA-XR57 to a Denon AVR2803 with a pair of Def Tech BP6B's. Both were set for 2 channel full-range stereo, with tone controls set flat. Both were receiving the same signal via optical input using an optical Y adapter/splitter. I used a spl meter to get their volume controls as close to the same loudness as practical. I would pull the banana plugs from the back of one reciever and plug them into the other as fast as possible while different pieces of music were playing. The XR57 had a more prominent treble. My daughter and I both heard it. She heard it first. She knows nothing about stereo gear. It wasn't night and day, but it was there. Denon's are said to be "warm" and the XR57 is supposed to be "bright". This unscientific "sighted" test bore that out. Perhaps these differences are measureable. Perhaps one of the receivers is "flat" while the other has either a boosted or reduced high frequency output. I just know we heard a difference.

By the way, I was happy with the BP6B's ($200/used/Craigslist) until I bought a pair of used Infinity Primus 250's on a whim this weekend ($100/used/Craigslist). Maybe it's the bi-polar radiation, but the lower midrange of the BP6B's just sounds wrong when compared directly with the 250's. Not terribly so, or else I wouldn't have been enjoying them up until now. I'd say it's a little too "forward" with a slight "hollow/boxy" sound. The 250's aren't perfect in this regard either. They are a tiny bit too laid back in their lower midrange. Sort of like the singer is further away from you. But I don't hear the hollow/boxy coloration, so they win this head-to-head. This comparison was with the XR57 driving the speakers. If the deal works out, the next sound-off will be the Infinity's versus a used pair of Monitor Audio B4's

 

[bandphan]

That's not dbt.

 

[Seth=L]

Hello

They are identical in spec but not in sonics. The new square series amps were built and entirely influenced by the their top amp....28B. The build philosphy was to incorporate their "first to last watt" philosphy in playback.
This has changed the tone of the new 4B's considerably compared to the sst series.

It won't let me link but this all can be found on the Bryston website.

Some people prefer the sst series over the new amps. Its just their taste between to amps that basically spec the same but have different internals.

In the event you didn't happen to read the tale end of my post.

The mind is very powerful, it can make people that aren't sick believe so strongly they are sick they will exhibit horrible symptoms of an ailment they don't have. It is by no means a stretch your mind can convince you that two sonically identical amplifiers sound entirely different.

 

[Seth=L]

I recently compared a Panasonic SA-XR57 to a Denon AVR2803 with a pair of Def Tech BP6B's. Both were set for 2 channel full-range stereo, with tone controls set flat. Both were receiving the same signal via optical input using an optical Y adapter/splitter. I used a spl meter to get their volume controls as close to the same loudness as practical. I would pull the banana plugs from the back of one reciever and plug them into the other as fast as possible while different pieces of music were playing. The XR57 had a more prominent treble. My daughter and I both heard it. She heard it first. She knows nothing about stereo gear. It wasn't night and day, but it was there. Denon's are said to be "warm" and the XR57 is supposed to be "bright". This unscientific "sighted" test bore that out. Perhaps these differences are measureable. Perhaps one of the receivers is "flat" while the other has either a boosted or reduced high frequency output. I just know we heard a difference.

As bandphan pointed out, that's not a double blind test.

The more important thing is that you're comparing unlike amplification topologies. The Panasonic receiver utilizes a switching amplifier designed by Panasonic as more of a PR stunt, Harman Kardon did this as well and quickly dropped it after receiving negative reactions. You'll notice that Panasonic no longer manufactures receivers and their only home theater products are home theater in a box systems. If the Panasonic design and implentation of the product had been in line with the market and appealing to a larger demographic I would say there could be merit to your claim especially if their home theater audio products were reviewed and scrutinized to the same level and grade as competing manufacturers.

Now if you want to compare more modern and refined switching amplification to class a/b amplification such as Pioneer Elite's offerings that utilize ICE technology or Tripath, and you have some credibility to your claims I'll be interested to know your findings.

 

[bandphan]

I'd fathom to say level matched with no massive transient peaks it would still be difficult to pick them out.

 

[wire]

Hello

I owned a 4bsst and replaced it with a Bryston 4bsst/2. Exact amp but new model. These amps specd exact same but sounded very different. The sst was more bright and seemed to play its best at louder volumes. While the new sst/2 lost its treble glare and played very nice at all volumes. It could be made to sound much more laid back than its predecessor. The only difference between the 2 very different sounding amps was a cap change.

I would love to compare my 20 + year old Bryston to your new one werd )) hehe. My Polk 2b's love my Bryston 4b , i have hooked up many amps to the 2bs over the years and they dont seem to like to many Amps , like the bryston . The Bryston can move alot of air and never clip out the polks @ very high volumes ( hehe ) . I listin to 2 channel only .
I do find , with the Carver tfm 35 vs the Bryston 4b . both sound great @ lower levels . The carver has a more up front soundstage . But @ high levels , the Bryston runs away .

 

[costanza]

As bandphan pointed out, that's not a double blind test.

The more important thing is that you're comparing unlike amplification topologies. The Panasonic receiver utilizes a switching amplifier designed by Panasonic as more of a PR stunt, Harman Kardon did this as well and quickly dropped it after receiving negative reactions. You'll notice that Panasonic no longer manufactures receivers and their only home theater products are home theater in a box systems. If the Panasonic design and implentation of the product had been in line with the market and appealing to a larger demographic I would say there could be merit to your claim especially if their home theater audio products were reviewed and scrutinized to the same level and grade as competing manufacturers.

I don't know why Panasonic stopped making the all-digital receivers. Could've been marketing. Could've been "political". Could've been a lot of things. Companies do things that "we" consumers don't understand all the time.
Off the top of my head... Mirage, one of my favorite speaker brands, changed its beautiful logo that audiophiles had been used to seeing for years into some cheap, generic looking logo. Why!? It might seem silly to care, but why screw with your brand recognition, unless you WANT people to forget who you really are? For example, BP should change their logo!

Back to the topic, I was surprised to have heard a difference. It might as well have been "blind" for my daughter (13 years old) since she didn't know that the Panasonic was said to have been "bright", but I wasn't trying to be scientific. It was just a spur of the moment test. I just swapped cables and asked if she heard a difference. She really wasn't "into" the whole thing anyway (she may have even rolled her eyes), but she did hear it.

By the way, did you not care for the "sound" of Panasonic's all-digital receiver's? Do you think the Panasonic engineers who designed the XR receivers, wanted them to sound bright? I imagine they have a group of "ears" that listen to the product and give a feedback, yes? I would think they could have, and perhaps thought they were making a "neutral" sounding component. I really have no idea. I'll shut up now

 

[chris357]

I have a disproportionate amount spent on amp to speakers.. which is not intended the mortgage industry fell apart before I could buy better speakers.. BUT

from my Denon AVR 3200 which was pretty low WPC to my B&K which was alot better, to my krell which is better.. I have heard improvements. I already own the krell, so i I believe in my heart it sounds ALOT better than anything else

although I do have a question.

why is it that some amps double their power say 250wpc at 8 ohms 500wpc at 4 ohms and some amps dont do this... is it build quality or padded numbers?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

why is it that some amps double their power say 250wpc at 8 ohms 500wpc at 4 ohms and some amps dont do this... is it build quality or padded numbers?

Most likely the 250 in that case is very conservative rating perhaps to make it look good at 4 Ohms.

As to your amp sounds, questions come to mind like how did you compare them, levels matched how accurately and if bias was controlled for.
No real reason for them to sound different when operated withing their design limits.

 

[chris357]

Most likely the 250 in that case is very conservative rating perhaps to make it look good at 4 Ohms.

As to your amp sounds, questions come to mind like how did you compare them, levels matched how accurately and if bias was controlled for.
No real reason for them to sound different when operated withing their design limits.

i'm guessing the 80 wpc from an AVR to the 200 WPC separate amp is pretty significant and then to a 250 wpc? maybe less difference from the B&K 200 wpc to the krell but huge from the denon avr to the separate amp.. as someone mentioned before .. dedicated power supply and such..

i'm not scientific, and i mentioned in my post its more emotional than anything and i'm not trying to say my krell is better based on fact.. I spent more there for I need to think its better

but if there truely was no difference then everyone woudl have the ep2500 right?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yeah, I hear you, but given my own weakness for 2nd harmonic trickery, I am not convinced that 'accurate reproduction' equals the most 'convincingly real' reproduction. Once you get used to that prominent 2nd harmonic sweetness, amps that lack it can sound boring, lifeless.

One only has to examine the original recording spectra or the live spectra to see if there are those 2nd harmonics there to begin with that the amp is reproducing. If not, then it is obvious that you cannot like the live performance lacking that 2nd harmonic and prefer your own alteration of reality. Such 2nd harmonics with sufficient magnitude to be audible would be part of the THD specs. If the total is below JND, the 2nd has to be as well.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

but if there truely was no difference then everyone woudl have the ep2500 right?

Not necessarily and no reason to. There are other factors in picking amps and just as legitimate. Looks, name, flexibility, etc. Yes, emotional reason is a good reason too. Yes, Krell has a great name and recognition as a high end amp. Nothing wrong with that at all. I might take one for free.