Could 4 yo HK (AVR240) be louder than new Onkyo (SR608)?

[iumma]

That is my somewhat upsetting question. I really love the Onkyo, but have been dissappointed at the volume level. My old HK blew me out of the room, but the Onkyo, even at max volume, is really not that lound. Did I maybe do something wrong on setup with the Audessey calibration? I beleive the HK was rated 50watts per channel, and the Onkyo is 100, so this is not making sense to me. Can any of the pros out there explain this to me. Thanks.

 

[bandphan]

Max volume?? You must want to damage something. Are the speakers the same? All things given in 2 channels driven one shouldn't blow the other away. Have you measured levels with an spl meter?

 

[Rickster71]

It won't sound twice as loud, if the power is doubled.

If one is rated for 50 watts and the other 100 watts. By looking at the watts you would think that the 100 watt amp would be twice as loud because it has twice the power right? Wrong.
The loudness difference between the 50 watt amp and the 100 watt amp is only 3 decibels (dB) which is not really a drastic difference. It would take 10 times the power of the 50 watt amp to be twice as loud as the 100 watt amp which is 500 watts.

 

[3db]

That is my somewhat upsetting question. I really love the Onkyo, but have been dissappointed at the volume level. My old HK blew me out of the room, but the Onkyo, even at max volume, is really not that lound. Did I maybe do something wrong on setup with the Audessey calibration? I beleive the HK was rated 50watts per channel, and the Onkyo is 100, so this is not making sense to me. Can any of the pros out there explain this to me. Thanks.

Well it might make sense depending on your answers to these 2 question.

a.) Are they the same speakers?
b.) Is it the same room?

 

[iumma]

Well it might make sense depending on your answers to these 2 question.

a.) Are they the same speakers?
b.) Is it the same room?

Yes, same speakers in the same room. I see what Rickster is saying, but that said it should be AT LEAST just as loud as the old HK. I also noticed that my max volume stops at 91, not the max 99 that it is supposed to. I am assuming that is Audessey setup that sets that max. Even still, based on the volume at 91, even if it went to 99, I doubt it would make much of a difference the way it stands now.

 

[adwilk]

I think it clearly has something to do with Audessey. The simple solution would be to set up without Audessey engaged and try to make your ears bleed.

What speakers are you using, its very possible that if you have a lacking sub, center, or surrounds that your mains could be crippled by Audessey.

 

[3db]

Try running the Onkyo without Audessy engaged and see what happens.

 

[sholling]

I would look to see if Audyssey Dynamic Volume is engaged. If it is then it might be your problem. I had that problem with my 707.

 

[iumma]

I think it clearly has something to do with Audessey. The simple solution would be to set up without Audessey engaged and try to make your ears bleed.

What speakers are you using, its very possible that if you have a lacking sub, center, or surrounds that your mains could be crippled by Audessey.

I have crappy Sony's that are about 5yo. I dont expect them to do anything but provide the same levels I had using the old receiver. If I had a little blood coming out of the ears, I would be happy at this point....

I too think it might be the Audessey. I have a very small room, so it probably tweeked the sound so you DONT get blown out of the room. However, I dont listen to things at low volume, as you can probably tell.

 

[Ron Temple]

Before Audyssey, I compared an Onk 6 series vs an HK 2 series. IMO, there was no comparison. The Onk sounded compressed vs. the impact, bass response and dynamics of the HK 50 watter. Also, you really needed to crank the Onk MV gain to hear appreciable volume, while the HK sounded decently loud at -30 and as you got toward -15, very loud. I chose to go with HK. I used one for 5 years as an AVR, then pre-pro as my speakers got to be a much bigger load. So I'm subjectively agreeing with the OP. I have no idea whether Audyssey is in play or not, but I felt that old Onk 602 was under-powered.

To be fair, I've got to admit, that I recently had a problem in my analog section of the HK. What did I replace it with? An Onk NR1007...should be here tomorrow. I'm taking a gamble based on all recent reports, the latest Audyssey (which sold me), the fact that I doubt a 50lb AVR is underpowered and I recently changed my HT setup to a much easier to drive setup (though I'll still drive my fronts with an amp).

 

[PENG]

HK fan boys may tell you about the so called HK watts being real watts blablabla...............

http://hcc.techradar.com/taxonomy/term/3590

This reviews show the 608 can in fact put out >130W into 8 ohms. The HK240 cannot do that for sure. The 608 did 60W/ch in their fire wall figure, still more than the real/clean 50 HK watts.

I have great respect for HK's specified power, but to say their 50W is better (even so called no comparison...) than the Onkyo's 100W is probably unrealistic.

Assuming your 608 is functioning normally, I would recommend you do a reset to factory default condition and then do your volume comparison again with the Hk AVR240.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Here's my take on this, based on years of experience with only Onkyo HT products...

First, I own the 605, which is the spiritual model grandfather of the new 608. Aside from the 90 to 100 watts per channel power jump and THX certification and other improvements, the guts are similar as are features I am going to get to...

If the OP's max volume is topping off at "91" instead of "99," then somewhere in the calibration chain, some channels (or the "IntelliVolume" input trim control) are being set into the "+dB" range -- let me explain. When any channel calibration setting in the AVR is set to a "+dB" number, the AVR compensates by lowering the overall master volume by that amount. The same thing goes for "IntelliVolume"...so, you won't have "99" as the max volume number any longer based on those settings.

In my system, all my channels are in the "+dB" range because I prefer the channels "hot" like that, and I am running Onkyo's IntelliVolume input gain trim for my "DVD" input (where my Blu-ray player is connected) at "+10dB"...this is yielding a greatly reduced maximum volume value, but I am getting very loud audio at a lower number on the display readout -- and hence what I think the OP is looking for.

Under the SOURCE SETUP of the 608's SETUP MENU, look for "IntelliVolume" for whatever input you have connected which you feel is "low in output;" if you bring this number up above "0dB" the audio will sound much more forceful and powerful without needing to get to that "Max" readout on the 608's display. This is something I was actually going to begin a thread about, and probably will after this issue of the OP's is resolved; that is, using Onkyo's IntelliVolume system as kind of a power amp's "input level gain" control.

At any rate, the point here is that if any speaker level is brought into the "+dB" range on Onkyo AVRs in addition to IntelliVolume being run in the "+dB" range, the overall maximum volume number will be reduced according to the summed number from all those adjustments -- this is why I think the OP's max volume dropped to "91". That said, I cannot imagine getting to max output with my 605 with standard action films or music; perhaps MAYBE if I am playing a REALLY quiet source like the audio tracks on the original Star Trek Blu-rays (which are recorded RIDICULOUSLY low) but something is definitely off if he can get it to full output without distortion or blowing his ears out -- setting IntelliVolume to a higher number will allow the amp to seem "more powerful" without needing to crank it to max...

 

[Ron Temple]

HK fan boys may tell you about the so called HK watts being real watts blablabla...............

http://hcc.techradar.com/taxonomy/term/3590

This reviews show the 608 can in fact put out >130W into 8 ohms. The HK240 cannot do that for sure. The 608 did 60W/ch in their fire wall figure, still more than the real/clean 50 HK watts.

I have great respect for HK's specified power, but to say their 50W is better (even so called no comparison...) than the Onkyo's 100W is probably unrealistic.

Assuming your 608 is functioning normally, I would recommend you do a reset to factory default condition and then do your volume comparison again with the Hk AVR240.

I wouldn't call myself an HK fanboy. I've heard many receivers that have more bells and whistles and more balls. The HK 2xx series is basically entry level, does a good job and has/had a nice analog section. What I wrote was based on what I heard. I called it subjective for a reason. That said, I tried to replace that HK model a couple of times with a Pio 1017 and a Denon 2307. Both were more powerful and both were decent. They just didn't sound as good, in my rig, at that time.

If you thought I was trying to sway someone off their product toward another one, you're way off base. My comments were to inform the OP, that I heard similar things with similar equipment circa 2005-6, so maybe his ears weren't lying. That was before Audyssey, maybe things are different now.

 

[PENG]

I wouldn't call myself an HK fanboy.

That is none of my business, but I read enough of your posts to know you are not "an HK fanboy" and now I know I am right.

If you thought I was trying to sway someone off their product toward another one, you're way off base.

Thanks for starting your statement with "If". FYI, I am absolutely not off base on this one.

My comments were to inform the OP, that I heard similar things with similar equipment circa 2005-6, so maybe his ears weren't lying. That was before Audyssey, maybe things are different now.

Now whether you care or not, I agree with you on this one.

What I did take exception was the following in your post:

I compared an Onk 6 series vs an HK 2 series. IMO, there was no comparison. The Onk sounded compressed vs. the impact, bass response and dynamics of the HK 50 watter.

I believe if the units are comparable, but hey, we don't have to agree on everything. You shared your experience with the OP, and I wanted to share what I know with him. I sure hope he does not mind hearing different view points and experiences of others. In the end he has to find out for himself.

 

[Ron Temple]

That is none of my business, but I read enough of your posts to know you are not "an HK fanboy" and now I know I am right.



Thanks for starting your statement with "If". FYI, I am absolutely not off base on this one.



Now whether you care or not, I agree with you on this one.

What I did take exception was the following in your post:



I believe if the units are comparable, but hey, we don't have to agree on everything. You shared your experience with the OP, and I wanted to share what I know with him. I sure hope he does not mind hearing different view points and experiences of others. In the end he has to find out for himself.

No biggie...I re-read my post and in retrospect it did come off a tad biased...which wasn't my intention. I should have just said, I had a comparable experience years ago and left it at that.

 

[lietuvis91]

hmmm.... I'm glad I saw this post.

yesterday I received in the mail and hooked up the onkyo hd radio unit to my 608 and noticed the same thing as the OP. The radio now got somehow "quieter", the sound is just not as filling as the built in am/fm tuner. i wonder if i have to go play with the source dbs and intellivolume settings.
Thanks for your contribution: PearlcorderS701
that was VERY helpful and a good description!

 

[PearlcorderS701]

hmmm.... I'm glad I saw this post.

yesterday I received in the mail and hooked up the onkyo hd radio unit to my 608 and noticed the same thing as the OP. The radio now got somehow "quieter", the sound is just not as filling as the built in am/fm tuner. i wonder if i have to go play with the source dbs and intellivolume settings.
Thanks for your contribution: PearlcorderS701
that was VERY helpful and a good description!

You are most welcome, lietu! Most people that own Onkyo products don't even know about the IntelliVolume settings; as I said, it's really not what the system was designed to do -- that is, raise each input component's "gain" like you would a power amp's gain controls -- but rather it was designed to "level out" the volume between components so one is not louder than the other...but a lot of folks I know use it to simply "jack up" the volume output of their systems, even though this is essentially just lowering the maximum volume...

Don't be mistaken, though: You're really not, as it's been explained to me and from what I've gathered from "IntelliVolume" research, getting any "additional" power from the receiver's amps or driving the speakers any "harder"...the power that's available is the power that's available (90 watts, 100 watts, etc.) but like a power amplifier, the "gain" of the receiver's output can be adjusted via IntelliVolume to make it seem like it's more powerful at a lower volume number...

And, you can look at it from the perspective of like a power amp's gain control, you're kind of "regulating" the max output of power from the receiver's amps; no, you're not getting MORE than 90 watts or 100 watts per channel, whatever the AVR is rated at, but rather a high IntelliVolume setting can make you feel as though you're getting the amp inside the AVR to deliver that power "honestly" via IntelliVolume "controlling" its output...