F

Fowl

Audioholic
Hey Guys,

I am currently running a 7.3 home theater system, which will change to a 7.1 when my SVS PBS 12 arrives.

My question in, on the back wall I have two speaker for the rears. They are currently 5ft 5" from the ground. The dipoles which are my L&R surrounds are 3ft 8" off the ground. Should all of them be the same height? Should I love the rears to level with the surround or vise versa.:confused:

Let me know as I am currently working in my theatre room.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Generally, the rear surrounds should be above ear level and slightly behind the listener.
 
T

tcarcio

Audioholic General
In a perfect world they would be the same hieght but it doesn't matter much if they are not exact. My rears are about a foot lower then my side surrounds and it sounds perfect. Just keep them above your head and angled toward the LP if possible.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
always make sure the tweeters are angled towards your ears, several reason for this are as follows and this applies to all speakers (front center surrounds etc) 90% of all dome shaped tweeters that are not horn loaded are known for "beaming" this means they do not distribute sound as widely as cones do and so the frequency response suffers off axis which affect imaging (any place where the speaker is not directly facing your ears) the brain picks up directionality of sounds from higher frequecies so in order to be able to detect the sounds from behind you need to be sure the high frequencies arent impeded in any way also keep in mind that most of the sounds you hear are "phantom" images which don't work off axis as well as they do on axis. to get an idea of what i mean do this experiment: place a pair of speakers about 2 feet above ear level, now listen to a stereo recording, you will notice the center phantom image is simply not there.
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
Gotta love this forum.
Someone upchucks utter nonsense in their reply....and gets thanked
:D
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Gotta love this forum.
Someone upchucks utter nonsense in their reply....and gets thanked
:D
Funny that YOU of all people should comment on this, but unfortunately here, I have to agree.

Surrounds should NOT be pointed at the listener, whether side or rear.
 
T

tcarcio

Audioholic General
Gotta love this forum.
Someone upchucks utter nonsense in their reply....and gets thanked
:D
So show me where it is written in stone that you should never do this. Sound is subjective and you really need to try all options because just setting all the surround speakers in the world to your standards doesn't work for everybody. Talk about rubbish. When I set up my system they sounded better to me to be tilted towards the listening position. Now if you do that and do not calibrate them you could have problems with overpowering your mains but this hobby is about experimentation not hard fast rules that YOU apply. You can do your setup the way you like but don't upchuck your rules on me, or anyone else for that matter. OK, I am done continue on your journey.......
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
So show me where it is written in stone that you should never do this. Sound is subjective and you really need to try all options because just setting all the surround speakers in the world to your standards doesn't work for everybody. Talk about rubbish. When I set up my system they sounded better to me to be tilted towards the listening position. Now if you do that and do not calibrate them you could have problems with overpowering your mains but this hobby is about experimentation not hard fast rules that YOU apply. You can do your setup the way you like but don't upchuck your rules on me, or anyone else for that matter. OK, I am done continue on your journey.......
I agree with what you are saying completely, however it is pretty well documented that surrounds should not be pointed directly at the listener. As you said, and as I already argued with this twit, personal preference is a totally different story so enjoy :)
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
So show me where it is written in stone that you should never do this.
Do what?
Show me where I wrote not to do something in my post. You can't.

SSound is subjective and you really need to try all options because just setting all the surround speakers in the world to your standards doesn't work for everybody. Talk about rubbish. When I set up my system they sounded better to me to be tilted towards the listening position. Now if you do that and do not calibrate them you could have problems with overpowering your mains but this hobby is about experimentation not hard fast rules that YOU apply. You can do your setup the way you like but don't upchuck your rules on me, or anyone else for that matter. OK, I am done continue on your journey.......
It's seems you've just begun to upchuck. My post had nothing to do with subjectivity.
All transducers beam, it's simply a function of wavelength vs diaphragm size. Doesn't matter if its horn loaded or not.
The 2' above stereo pair experiment is also rubbish. You will still hear a solid phantom center, because imaging is a function of >1k frequencies, which will change little in this "experiment".
But of course, you're rambling post addressed only phantom issues in your subjective mind, not what I wrote.
 
T

tcarcio

Audioholic General
Let me see know, You saying "Upchuck utter nonsense" means you think it is a good idea????? You must be a lib because thier favorite saying is , but that's different.:eek::D
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I agree with what you are saying completely, however it is pretty well documented that surrounds should not be pointed directly at the listener. As you said, and as I already argued with this twit, personal preference is a totally different story so enjoy :)
really? would you mind explaining to me why? in my experience if i didnt point them at the listening position i never knew they were on.

All transducers beam, it's simply a function of wavelength vs diaphragm size. Doesn't matter if its horn loaded or not.
horns do not beam as much as unloaded tweeters, they have a much wider dispersion area.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
really? would you mind explaining to me why? in my experience if i didnt point them at the listening position i never knew they were on.
With any setup, some adjustment is needed. So you tweak, listen for a while, tweak, listen, etc... until you have what sounds good to you. Surrounds are supposed to be more diffused in general, so they should not be pointed directly at the listener. With bipoles, the listener is supposed to sit in the null area of the speaker so you hear the reflected sounds. With a monopole, they need to be aimed into the listening area, just not directly at your ears to achieve something similar, just with more directionality.

horns do not beam as much as unloaded tweeters, they have a much wider dispersion area.
The wavelengths of higher frequencies are much narrower so they tend to "beam" no matter what, meaning much more directionality than lower frequencies.

Now I understand what J Garcia meant when he answered your post and said,"You of all people" :p:D:D
Yep, he has a PDH in BS.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
this is what i have done and all speakers pointed towards me sounds the best, maybe it also depends on the speaker, some small bookshelfs have narrow dispersion areas as opposed to others, i have noticed this varying in different speakers. who knows, all i know is what sounds good to me is what i tend to recommend to others. and maybe someone else disagrees, thats fine too, i like to think sound isnt subjective but i guess it depends on individual situations.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
this is what i have done and all speakers pointed towards me sounds the best, maybe it also depends on the speaker, some small bookshelfs have narrow dispersion areas as opposed to others, i have noticed this varying in different speakers.
There's no arguing with what you like. If it sounds good to you, go with it :) I was moving things around this weekend and put the mains on my rack. It sounded like crap - congested and one note. When I put them back at 8ft apart they were happy again. My speakers have good off axis performance, but the "ideal" sweet spot is still pretty narrow.
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
really? would you mind explaining to me why? in my experience if i didnt point them at the listening position i never knew they were on.
We do use HF to localize, because the shorter wavelengths create larger phase differences between our ears due to our head (or HRTF to be exact).
But that does not mean we need to hear all the HF. Our highest sensitivity is midband, somewhere up to around 3k, where it begins to fall off (towards 20k upper limit, lower for some). By pointing your speaker away, you may reduce the very HF, but not the 1-3k range, so you can still localize it quite well. What you have done, it possibly create more short delay reflections, which will diffuse some of the localization.

horns do not beam as much as unloaded tweeters, they have a much wider dispersion area.
Incorrect. One of the functions of the horn is to increase directivity, to maintain pattern control where an non-horn would have none, i.e. wider dispersion. At 2-3k, the typical 1" dome on a baffle has 180 deg dispersion. In a (large enough) horn, that will be reduced by the horn angle. Where a horn can increase dispersion is at higher frequency, if it diffracts the wavefront produced by the dome/diaphragm. Otherwise, the beaming is simply dictated by the diameter of the transducer, just like without the horn.

With any setup, some adjustment is needed. So you tweak, listen for a while, tweak, listen, etc... until you have what sounds good to you.
For those who cannot understand theory or measure, that is the only option. Trial and error. Or at least error....until you have convinced yourself that things are "properly" set up :rolleyes:.
Hardly repeatable or consistent, that "trial and error".

Surrounds are supposed to be more diffused in general, so they should not be pointed directly at the listener.
That is in contradiction to your claimed requirements for MCH music, where one is supposed to clearly hear instruments, like synthesizers, horns and singing (Roxy music, etc.). Why would you want those to be diffuse when they were clearly not mixed to be heard that way?
Why would you use a monopole for diffusion/spaciousness when a multi-polar is superior? Oh wait...because j_garcia prefers it that way...sometimes...I guess :rolleyes:.

With bipoles, the listener is supposed to sit in the null area of the speaker so you hear the reflected sounds.
Wrong. There is no null with a bipole, only a dipole.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, so rather than continue...

Yep, he has a PDH in BS.
A PDH eh???
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
That is in contradiction to your claimed requirements for MCH music, where one is supposed to clearly hear instruments, like synthesizers, horns and singing (Roxy music, etc.). Why would you want those to be diffuse when they were clearly not mixed to be heard that way?
Why would you use a monopole for diffusion/spaciousness when a multi-polar is superior? Oh wait...because j_garcia prefers it that way...sometimes...I guess :rolleyes:.
No,it isn't. It is EXACTLY the same thing I said in the other post. The sound comes from a single position, however it isn't pointed directly at the listener. This gives the sound more directionality than a bi/di, but doesn't try to compete with the mains for center stage :rolleyes:

Wrong. There is no null with a bipole, only a dipole.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, so rather than continue...
Ummm...you really are a fool aren't you? There is no difference in the physical design of a bipole vs a dipole except for the firing phase. One is in phase and the other is out of phase, and in both cases, there is a null, since it is part of the DEFINITION of a bipolar surround speaker. Apparently your Ph.D wasn't in reality and your pay grade writing level just dropped a few brackets. There's no null in a TRI-pole.

A PDH eh???
LOL. You know what I meant you arrogant bastard :D
 
Last edited:
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
Ummm...you really are a fool aren't you? There is no difference in the physical design of a bipole vs a dipole except for the firing phase. One is in phase and the other is out of phase, and in both cases, there is a null. Apparently your Ph.D wasn't in reality and your pay grade writing level just dropped a few brackets.
Sheesh. The (difference in) phase is what creates the nulls.
Includes animation so that even the kids can be entertained while they (hopefully) learn something



"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
 

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