Got My Monoprice RCAs But...

[highfigh]

I figured you'd be among the few that would catch that.

You sayin' I'm old? Huh? You punks are all alike! Why, I oughtta,.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Matlock's on!

My dad had an AM radio in the garage when I was a kid and whenever he was out there, it would be on. Mostly music but Paul Harvey was a regular. That was in the early -mid '60s. When Paul was young, dammit!

 

[highfigh]

I'm a bit confused guys...do these "arrows" which are labled on some brands (cough cough Monster) matter on the interconnects -- or are they there to indicate ground positioning only?

My Monoprice RCAs had like short "sleeve covers" which surrounded the ends of the cables on each end towards the terminating plugs, but they had printing on them that didn't have any relevance or significance to me; like codes and numbers or something along those lines. Do these symbols indicate correct signal flow?

The arrows should be pointing to the one piece of equipment that's common to all of the source equipment- the preamp, receiver or integrated amp. That's the one that should be the ground reference and that's important. Having many paths to ground causes ground loops, which show up as hum that magically disappears when the cables to the preamp/receiver/integrated amp are unplugged. Any print on the sleeves is probably for brand, part number/series or advertising. If it has any other significance, I would be surprised- the cables weren't very expensive, right?

I'm an audio guy and not as interested in video, although I definitely enjoy good video quality. I'm just a lot more interested in music and sound quality. That being the case, I have tried a lot of cables over the 30+ years I've been in the consumer audio business. Other than the cables I had been using to connect my VCR sounding like absolute crap when I tried them with my DVD player, I haven't heard Earth-shattering differences between most cables and I really, really, really like the way my system sounds. I have no intention of breaking the bank on cables, even though I have a high-end shop 4 blocks from my house and he recommends the silver wire jobs. I hear detail that would probably be better off as inaudible but when I play a great recording, it really shines. All that with Planet Waves cables. Hmmm.

FWIW, I have a Denon AVR-990 receiver that replaced an old Sony TA-F500ES integrated amp. I liked the Sony a lot and it has completely passive source switching, volume and tone controls. I found this out accidentally when I turned the power amp off and the music kept playing. Nice piece and IMO, Sony isn't what they were in the past. I also have a ReQuest music server connected to the Denon via the digital coax input and the receiver convert to analog- another reason I wanted a receiver like that, along with PC control. The ReQuest rips the CDs to the hard drive as .wav files for listening on the main system and also as 320K MP3 files so I can stream on a local computer by going to the IP address or from outside of my local network by logging into their DDNS server. I have a stereo in my basement and one in the garage- both receive audio from the main system and I have used the ReQuest's analog out as well as Zone 2 of the receiver. These two systems are connected to that receiver using Cat5e with RCA plugs soldered on at the basement/garage ends and one Keystone insert for a wall plate that takes bare wire and has a 3.5mm jack, that gets the signal via 3.5mm-RCA "Y" cord. The garage and basement sound great, too. No hum, no static, just good sound.

The wire isn't really what makes the sound good- it's the actual connections and wire configuration. Twin lead with no twist would be a problem but any kind of shielded cable will work fine as long as it has the low capacitance and inductance I mentioned previously.

 

[jamie2112]

There is no "signal flow" you can plug them in any way you want to and they will work.Period.No other explanation needed here,thats it all done plug it in and enjoy.........

 

[PearlcorderS701]

The arrows should be pointing to the one piece of equipment that's common to all of the source equipment- the preamp, receiver or integrated amp. That's the one that should be the ground reference and that's important. Having many paths to ground causes ground loops, which show up as hum that magically disappears when the cables to the preamp/receiver/integrated amp are unplugged. Any print on the sleeves is probably for brand, part number/series or advertising. If it has any other significance, I would be surprised- the cables weren't very expensive, right?

No, they weren't expensive of course -- they were $4.11, and that's not the issue; I just didn't see these directional arrows on the sleeves of these new cables when there were arrows previously there on the replaced Monsters.

I suppose I'll just e-mail Monoprice to put my mind at ease about it.

I'm an audio guy and not as interested in video, although I definitely enjoy good video quality. I'm just a lot more interested in music and sound quality. That being the case, I have tried a lot of cables over the 30+ years I've been in the consumer audio business. Other than the cables I had been using to connect my VCR sounding like absolute crap when I tried them with my DVD player, I haven't heard Earth-shattering differences between most cables and I really, really, really like the way my system sounds. I have no intention of breaking the bank on cables, even though I have a high-end shop 4 blocks from my house and he recommends the silver wire jobs. I hear detail that would probably be better off as inaudible but when I play a great recording, it really shines. All that with Planet Waves cables. Hmmm.

Okay. I wasn't really debating the differences between cables and the quality variants; I just wanted to know about the directionality possibilities.

FWIW, I have a Denon AVR-990 receiver that replaced an old Sony TA-F500ES integrated amp. I liked the Sony a lot and it has completely passive source switching, volume and tone controls. I found this out accidentally when I turned the power amp off and the music kept playing.

You had a power amp hooked up with an integrated or the Denon? Oh, were you running the Denon as the preamp with an amp? Is that Denon a stereo receiver?

Nice piece and IMO, Sony isn't what they were in the past.

Absolutely agreed -- at least in the audio department. A friend of mine had an ES three head cassette deck and that thing was amazing. It really did make recorded tapes sound like CDs.

Now, I wouldn't touch anything Sony, audio-wise...

 

[PearlcorderS701]

There is no "signal flow" you can plug them in any way you want to and they will work.Period.No other explanation needed here,thats it all done plug it in and enjoy.........

Thanks Jamie; as I said to highfigh, I will probably just shoot Monoprice an e-mail to confirm...

 

[jamie2112]

Thanks Jamie; as I said to highfigh, I will probably just shoot Monoprice an e-mail to confirm...

You dont even need to do that.I and many on this site have extensive experience with said cables and there is no wrong way to plug them in red to red and white to white thats it really.That other cable (that I cant mention) did not need to have arrows on them as it means nothing as well as they are an overpriced sham of a company IMO of course.That being said go ahead and get with monoprice if you feel we are not answering your questions to your satisfaction.Just know that what I am saying is correct and just plug in your setup and listen.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Thank you.

 

[highfigh]

No, they weren't expensive of course -- they were $4.11, and that's not the issue; I just didn't see these directional arrows on the sleeves of these new cables when there were arrows previously there on the replaced Monsters.

I suppose I'll just e-mail Monoprice to put my mind at ease about it.



Okay. I wasn't really debating the differences between cables and the quality variants; I just wanted to know about the directionality possibilities.



You had a power amp hooked up with an integrated or the Denon? Oh, were you running the Denon as the preamp with an amp? Is that Denon a stereo receiver?



Absolutely agreed -- at least in the audio department. A friend of mine had an ES three head cassette deck and that thing was amazing. It really did make recorded tapes sound like CDs.

Now, I wouldn't touch anything Sony, audio-wise...

I think Monster charges more than $4.11 just for the arrows.

Again, the arrows are there because they supposedly connected the outer shield to the sleeve only at the end being pointed to. IIRC, the monster rep told us that the sound would actually be different if they were reversed but that was a long time ago. Didn't sell many, at all. If someone couldn't be reasoned with, I would but they were the exception, for me.

My power amp was connected to the Sony. That integrated amp didn't originally have preamp outs but I had the tech modify it at the shop where we worked. The Denon is an AV receiver. I wanted a networked receiver for the reasons I posted before and because that Sony doesn't have as many inputs as I need, especially video. Plus, I can now control the Zone 2 and the ReQuest server when I'm outside more easily since I often have a laptop out there.

If that was the TC-K777ES cassette deck, it was definitely a good one. All of the TC-K models were designed by the same man and he definitely knows his stuff. Nice guy, too.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

I think Monster charges more than $4.11 just for the arrows.

LOL...

Again, the arrows are there because they supposedly connected the outer shield to the sleeve only at the end being pointed to. IIRC, the monster rep told us that the sound would actually be different if they were reversed but that was a long time ago. Didn't sell many, at all. If someone couldn't be reasoned with, I would but they were the exception, for me.

Indeed, the concensus even on other forums where I have asked this seems to be that these arrows are related to the shield/grounding aspect; as for the Monster rep, it's funny because the installer that assisted me with my previous system's setup saw the back of my rack and noticed that I didn't have these Monsters "going" in the "right direction" from the CD changer to receiver, and he mentioned that the arrows indicate "correct signal flow," thus I always thought this was the norm -- that's what has made me paranoid about these Monoprices.

My power amp was connected to the Sony. That integrated amp didn't originally have preamp outs but I had the tech modify it at the shop where we worked.

But why would you need a power amp with an integrated? Was the integrated not giving enough power?

The Denon is an AV receiver. I wanted a networked receiver for the reasons I posted before and because that Sony doesn't have as many inputs as I need, especially video. Plus, I can now control the Zone 2 and the ReQuest server when I'm outside more easily since I often have a laptop out there.

Oh okay; thought you were talking about one of their plethora of stereo receiver choices...

If that was the TC-K777ES cassette deck, it was definitely a good one. All of the TC-K models were designed by the same man and he definitely knows his stuff. Nice guy, too.

Really...that's interesting. I do not recall the exact model, but that sounds familiar -- all I know is that this deck was amazing...I never heard home-recorded tapes sound that good ever.

 

[jostenmeat]

Does anyone know how much they'll charge me for the arrow mod if I send my cables in?

EDIT: Oh, I see, $4.11. A bargain!

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Does anyone know how much they'll charge me for the arrow mod if I send my cables in?

EDIT: Oh, I see, $4.11. A bargain!

No, that's what my Monoprices cost me!!

 

[ParadigmDawg]

You are wrong on this one Jamie. My cables didn't come with 'direction arrows" and they didn't sound right until I drew some on with a Sharpie...

There is no "signal flow" you can plug them in any way you want to and they will work.Period.No other explanation needed here,thats it all done plug it in and enjoy.........

 

[highfigh]

But why would you need a power amp with an integrated? Was the integrated not giving enough power?

It's a nice, little Conrad Johnson tube amp. I don't like really bright sound or harsh upper frequencies and the way some music is recorded, it's more pleasant through that one.

 

[jinjuku]

No, they weren't expensive of course -- they were $4.11, and that's not the issue; I just didn't see these directional arrows on the sleeves of these new cables when there were arrows previously there on the replaced Monsters.

I suppose I'll just e-mail Monoprice to put my mind at ease about it.

For gods sake just plug the frikin' cables in would you?

Not all RCA cables are going to be wired the same. The Monster cables that you had could be of the ground float variant. These are only needed when you have some ground induced hum in the signal path. The floated shield side of things always goes to the component being fed. But you are most likely not experiencing this situation.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

For gods sake just plug the frikin' cables in would you?

They're plugged in!

Not all RCA cables are going to be wired the same. The Monster cables that you had could be of the ground float variant. These are only needed when you have some ground induced hum in the signal path. The floated shield side of things always goes to the component being fed. But you are most likely not experiencing this situation.

Thank you; apparently this is what was going on (that is, the Monster RCAs had the ground float elements). No, I'm not experiencing hum.

 

[KurtBJC]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume it's a floated shield. I have seen a lot of different rationales offered for "directionality," none of which make a lot of sense, and without an explanation from the vendor as to what the arrows are purported to mean, or how the cable is internally wired, it's anybody's guess.

Telescoping a shield like this, incidentally, does not really work in unbalanced circuits. When it's done, the two RCA grounds are ordinarily connected by an inner conductor (that is, "balanced" type cable has been used to connect unbalanced gear), because if the cable doesn't contain a signal return path, the return can wind up being quite indirect, which often will result in a lot of noise as well as attenuation of the signal. It does work in balanced gear sometimes (not to reduce induced noise, but to eliminate ground loops), but that's because in balanced circuits there are two signal conductors and both are isolated from ground and have equal impedance to ground but opposite polarity. Anyhow: because there is a conductor in the cable joining the RCA grounds, noise on the shield CANNOT be isolated from either side--it just has a slightly more indirect, but still highly conductive, path to the one side than the other.

Telescoping a shield to reduce induced noise would be an unusual solution and will, in most circumstances, be ineffective. Shield effectiveness is dependent, among other things, on the shield being well-grounded, and removing the ground at one end of the shield will compromise shield effectiveness. In an unbalanced circuit you WANT the noise to shunt to ground, and anything which reduces shield effectiveness will result in more noise reaching the signal side of the circuit.

I have seen a lot of strange rationales given for directional arrows on various cable products. Some people think that copper "sounds" different when hooked up in the direction the wire was drawn, for example (which of course ignores the fact that the signal is alternating current and flows as much in one direction as the other). Some manufacturers put little RC networks into one end of the cable. The floated shield is one possibility, but certainly not the only one, and absent an explanation from Monster I wouldn't assume that that's what's been done here.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable

 

[jinjuku]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume it's a floated shield. I have seen a lot of different rationales offered for "directionality," none of which make a lot of sense, and without an explanation from the vendor as to what the arrows are purported to mean, or how the cable is internally wired, it's anybody's guess.

Telescoping a shield like this, incidentally, does not really work in unbalanced circuits. When it's done, the two RCA grounds are ordinarily connected by an inner conductor (that is, "balanced" type cable has been used to connect unbalanced gear), because if the cable doesn't contain a signal return path, the return can wind up being quite indirect, which often will result in a lot of noise as well as attenuation of the signal. It does work in balanced gear sometimes (not to reduce induced noise, but to eliminate ground loops), but that's because in balanced circuits there are two signal conductors and both are isolated from ground and have equal impedance to ground but opposite polarity. Anyhow: because there is a conductor in the cable joining the RCA grounds, noise on the shield CANNOT be isolated from either side--it just has a slightly more indirect, but still highly conductive, path to the one side than the other.

Telescoping a shield to reduce induced noise would be an unusual solution and will, in most circumstances, be ineffective. Shield effectiveness is dependent, among other things, on the shield being well-grounded, and removing the ground at one end of the shield will compromise shield effectiveness. In an unbalanced circuit you WANT the noise to shunt to ground, and anything which reduces shield effectiveness will result in more noise reaching the signal side of the circuit.

I have seen a lot of strange rationales given for directional arrows on various cable products. Some people think that copper "sounds" different when hooked up in the direction the wire was drawn, for example (which of course ignores the fact that the signal is alternating current and flows as much in one direction as the other). Some manufacturers put little RC networks into one end of the cable. The floated shield is one possibility, but certainly not the only one, and absent an explanation from Monster I wouldn't assume that that's what's been done here.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable

Hi Kurt, been awhile since I've seen you around. How things going?

Thanks for the insight. I've seen stranger stuff that makes zero sense. I just saw some AQ's that had arrows at each end for some reason (and the arrows were different colors).

Agreed, who knows w/o ripping the cable apart. BTW have you played with any of the cabling from Liberty? Any thoughts? They seem to go up directly against Belden in a lot of their offerings.

I don't know if I can call a cable a cable with and RC/Zobel/LCR box on them. I think they cease being cables at that point.

 

[highfigh]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume it's a floated shield. I have seen a lot of different rationales offered for "directionality," none of which make a lot of sense, and without an explanation from the vendor as to what the arrows are purported to mean, or how the cable is internally wired, it's anybody's guess.

Telescoping a shield like this, incidentally, does not really work in unbalanced circuits. When it's done, the two RCA grounds are ordinarily connected by an inner conductor (that is, "balanced" type cable has been used to connect unbalanced gear), because if the cable doesn't contain a signal return path, the return can wind up being quite indirect, which often will result in a lot of noise as well as attenuation of the signal. It does work in balanced gear sometimes (not to reduce induced noise, but to eliminate ground loops), but that's because in balanced circuits there are two signal conductors and both are isolated from ground and have equal impedance to ground but opposite polarity. Anyhow: because there is a conductor in the cable joining the RCA grounds, noise on the shield CANNOT be isolated from either side--it just has a slightly more indirect, but still highly conductive, path to the one side than the other.

Telescoping a shield to reduce induced noise would be an unusual solution and will, in most circumstances, be ineffective. Shield effectiveness is dependent, among other things, on the shield being well-grounded, and removing the ground at one end of the shield will compromise shield effectiveness. In an unbalanced circuit you WANT the noise to shunt to ground, and anything which reduces shield effectiveness will result in more noise reaching the signal side of the circuit.

I have seen a lot of strange rationales given for directional arrows on various cable products. Some people think that copper "sounds" different when hooked up in the direction the wire was drawn, for example (which of course ignores the fact that the signal is alternating current and flows as much in one direction as the other). Some manufacturers put little RC networks into one end of the cable. The floated shield is one possibility, but certainly not the only one, and absent an explanation from Monster I wouldn't assume that that's what's been done here.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable

In my case, I didn't mean the shield was disconnected at the source end, I meant they use a second shield that's isolated from the other and only connected at the amp/receiver, or whatever. That way, the signal loses no level and the braided cable used for the negative is shielded.

I'm not sure MC doesn't have a little network at one end but I fail to see how that would leave the signal unmolested. Far from being a "purist" technique, eh?

In my experience, RF isn't much of a problem when the cable and plugs are of good quality and terminated properly. Induced hum is another story. Distance and/or orientation are the best cure for induced noise like that. When I worked in 12V audio, some radiated noise issues responded fairly well to installing a Mu-metal plate but that wasn't for wires, only tape heads and internally vulnerable parts, like badly shielded volume or tone controls.

 

[highfigh]

Hi Kurt, been awhile since I've seen you around. How things going?

Thanks for the insight. I've seen stranger stuff that makes zero sense. I just saw some AQ's that had arrows at each end for some reason (and the arrows were different colors).

Agreed, who knows w/o ripping the cable apart. BTW have you played with any of the cabling from Liberty? Any thoughts? They seem to go up directly against Belden in a lot of their offerings.

I don't know if I can call a cable a cable with and RC/Zobel/LCR box on them. I think they cease being cables at that point.

FWIW, I've used a lot of Liberty cables and plugs- I like them, although a few of their in-wall cables tend to be pretty stiff. For lacing a rack, their non-CL2 rated cable with the clear PVC jacket works well because it's very easy to manipulate.