Using a Receiver Without Preouts for Connection to an Amp?

P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
Also Guys,

With everything that's been suggested here, the opinions got a bit clouded after awhile; which model center is being recommended as an exact timbre match for my RTi12s -- is it the CSi5, the CSi40, or something else?
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
If you feel the 1007 is to much then look at the 700 or 800 series and get an external amp if needed. As far as going with another manufacture on a receiver. Any of the other major names would work fine.

I like Onkyo HT receivers because their easy to use, come with Audyssey, and tend to offer more bang for the buck. If I upgrade again it will probably be Onkyo or Marantz. Marantz are easy to use as well and refurbs are cheap. As far as which Marantz might work for you. You might want to look at the 6004.

As far as your current receiver goes and the Polk forums go. I also restated my thoughts and came to the conclusion that your current receiver would do the job fine as long as your not stupid with the volume. Crossing over at 60hz helps the receiver even more. 60 is probably what I would use with your mains as well. But again it comes down to what you prefer and sounds best to you.

As far as the center goes. I have been telling you from the beginning. To go with the matching center. Timbre matching and using a properly matched center channel to your mains is important in maintaining a cohesive front stage. 70% of the movie comes from the center. So do not skimp in this department. Especially when the matching center is so cheap. Yes I understand Polk said your current center would work ok, and they are correct. But it is not the ideal match. Do you want just ok. Or a properly matched center.

You already know your sub needs replacing. So we don't need to go down this road. Something from HSU, SVS, or ED in the 600 range would be all you need for a killer sub.

The key IMO to creating a high quality HT is balance.

On the video side your good.

On the audio side is where your out of balance.

Since speakers are the most important part of the equation. I would get this dealt with first since its the cheapest thing to do and your receiver is fine for the time being.

So in order of priority to get a better balanced system. Do the following.

1. Get the matching center. It's cheap and will make a big difference.
2. Subwoofer. This will make an even bigger difference. More than you can imagine. You won't believe the visceral effect low 20hz bass brings to your HT.
3. Receiver
4. Maybe upgrade the surrounds to in-wall Polks. Not a priority but something to do down the road when everything else is dealt with.

This should have answered all of your questions.
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
Also Guys,

With everything that's been suggested here, the opinions got a bit clouded after awhile; which model center is being recommended as an exact timbre match for my RTi12s -- is it the CSi5, the CSi40, or something else?
CSi5

Just check it out at the Polk site.:)
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
Thanks Anamorphic,

Appreciate the time to respond like this; I will start by replying to your statement of "this should have answered all of your questions" first, as I would like to continue the discussion with you based on what you say below:

If you feel the 1007 is to much then look at the 700 or 800 series and get an external amp if needed. As far as going with another manufacture on a receiver. Any of the other major names would work fine.
Okay -- so in Onkyo's lineup, you would recommend the 1007 first, and then if I had to drop down because of price, you'd suggest the 700 or 800? But I'd be looking for a clear, distinct, definite upgrade from my 605 -- I think I would need to go beyond the 700-series. Let's take getting an external amp out of the mix for a moment -- for raw current to feed my RTi12s, would you recommend starting at least in the 800-series Onkyos?

I like Onkyo HT receivers because their easy to use, come with Audyssey, and tend to offer more bang for the buck. If I upgrade again it will probably be Onkyo or Marantz.
I agree with these factors, although I go one step beyond this and happen to love the "seriousness of purpose" their gear exhibits in terms of looks; the tactile feel of the buttons and knobs...the all-aluminum faceplates...their stuff, to me, just radiates quality.

I used to feel that way about Marantz as well -- and got into that brand through CD changers and CD recorders -- but I never heard their receivers or amps.

Marantz are easy to use as well and refurbs are cheap. As far as which Marantz might work for you. You might want to look at the 6004.
I have put the 6004 on my possible upgrade list -- thanks.

As far as your current receiver goes and the Polk forums go. I also restated my thoughts and came to the conclusion that your current receiver would do the job fine as long as your not stupid with the volume. Crossing over at 60hz helps the receiver even more. 60 is probably what I would use with your mains as well. But again it comes down to what you prefer and sounds best to you.
Well, what do you mean by "what I prefer"...I want to go for accuracy and the best crossover for these towers -- "Menasor" from the Polk Forum recommended I use 60Hz for the RTi12s so that way they can "flex some of their bass muscle" while allowing the sub to get a good workout with everything 60Hz and below. Do you agree with this? I see you say you agree, but...would you go lower than 60 for the 12s? And what do you mean exactly by "as long as you're not stupid with the volume"...you mean driving the amp into distortion?

Also, what do you mean by that setting the AVR to a 60Hz crossover, the receiver would be helped "even more"?

As far as the center goes. I have been telling you from the beginning. To go with the matching center. Timbre matching and using a properly matched center channel to your mains is important in maintaining a cohesive front stage. 70% of the movie comes from the center. So do not skimp in this department. Especially when the matching center is so cheap. Yes I understand Polk said your current center would work ok, and they are correct. But it is not the ideal match. Do you want just ok. Or a properly matched center.
I understand this; I am reconsidering getting the properly matched center.

You already know your sub needs replacing. So we don't need to go down this road. Something from HSU, SVS, or ED in the 600 range would be all you need for a killer sub.
When did I say I needed more guidance regarding a sub? Yes, we've been down this road -- and I have admitted, ridiculous amounts of times already quite frankly, that I needed a new sub and the one I have is a piece of dog ****.

But now that you've brought it up, what model from either SVS or HSU would you suggest? It doesn't have to be one of SVS' huge cylinder subs to do the job, does it? Which model SVS would you recommend that would shake a HT room real good?

Since speakers are the most important part of the equation. I would get this dealt with first since its the cheapest thing to do and your receiver is fine for the time being.
Okay...

So in order of priority to get a better balanced system. Do the following.

1. Get the matching center. It's cheap and will make a big difference.
2. Subwoofer. This will make an even bigger difference. More than you can imagine. You won't believe the visceral effect low 20hz bass brings to your HT.
3. Receiver
4. Maybe upgrade the surrounds to in-wall Polks. Not a priority but something to do down the road when everything else is dealt with.
Well, starting with #3, I don't think I really want to remove and replace the SpeakerCraft in-ceiling surrounds that came with the new house I bought as I understand they're pretty good speakers -- I understand we're going for cohesion here, but I don't believe the surrounds are as important as the front stage is in this regard. Now, with #s 1 and 2, you are most likely correct, and I will look into these upgrades, then look at #3.

So, for the center, the exact match is a CSi5, correct? And if you can suggest some good subs at the $600 range, that would be great.
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
Thanks Anamorphic,

Appreciate the time to respond like this; I will start by replying to your statement of "this should have answered all of your questions" first, as I would like to continue the discussion with you based on what you say below:



Okay -- so in Onkyo's lineup, you would recommend the 1007 first, and then if I had to drop down because of price, you'd suggest the 700 or 800? But I'd be looking for a clear, distinct, definite upgrade from my 605 -- I think I would need to go beyond the 700-series. Let's take getting an external amp out of the mix for a moment -- for raw current to feed my RTi12s, would you recommend starting at least in the 800-series Onkyos?



I agree with these factors, although I go one step beyond this and happen to love the "seriousness of purpose" their gear exhibits in terms of looks; the tactile feel of the buttons and knobs...the all-aluminum faceplates...their stuff, to me, just radiates quality.

I used to feel that way about Marantz as well -- and got into that brand through CD changers and CD recorders -- but I never heard their receivers or amps.



I have put the 6004 on my possible upgrade list -- thanks.



Well, what do you mean by "what I prefer"...I want to go for accuracy and the best crossover for these towers -- "Menasor" from the Polk Forum recommended I use 60Hz for the RTi12s so that way they can "flex some of their bass muscle" while allowing the sub to get a good workout with everything 60Hz and below. Do you agree with this? I see you say you agree, but...would you go lower than 60 for the 12s? And what do you mean exactly by "as long as you're not stupid with the volume"...you mean driving the amp into distortion?

Also, what do you mean by that setting the AVR to a 60Hz crossover, the receiver would be helped "even more"?



I understand this; I am reconsidering getting the properly matched center.



When did I say I needed more guidance regarding a sub? Yes, we've been down this road -- and I have admitted, ridiculous amounts of times already quite frankly, that I needed a new sub and the one I have is a piece of dog ****.

But now that you've brought it up, what model from either SVS or HSU would you suggest? It doesn't have to be one of SVS' huge cylinder subs to do the job, does it? Which model SVS would you recommend that would shake a HT room real good?



Okay...



Well, starting with #3, I don't think I really want to remove and replace the SpeakerCraft in-ceiling surrounds that came with the new house I bought as I understand they're pretty good speakers -- I understand we're going for cohesion here, but I don't believe the surrounds are as important as the front stage is in this regard. Now, with #s 1 and 2, you are most likely correct, and I will look into these upgrades, then look at #3.

So, for the center, the exact match is a CSi5, correct? And if you can suggest some good subs at the $600 range, that would be great.
Let's take getting an external amp out of the mix for a moment -- for raw current to feed my RTi12s, would you recommend starting at least in the 800-series Onkyos? For raw power I would go with the 1007 or above. However you stated the 1007 was probably more than you needed feature wise. So I suggested the 807 or 707. My gut tells me the 807 would be fine with your speakers. Especially when using a sub. If it's not you could send it back or add an external amp.

Well, what do you mean by "what I prefer"...I want to go for accuracy and the best crossover for these towers -- "Menasor" from the Polk Forum recommended I use 60Hz for the RTi12s so that way they can "flex some of their bass muscle" while allowing the sub to get a good workout with everything 60Hz and below. Do you agree with this? I see you say you agree, but...would you go lower than 60 for the 12s? And what do you mean exactly by "as long as you're not stupid with the volume"...you mean driving the amp into distortion? I would tend to agree with Menasor. 60hz is a good crossover point. It's probably what I would go with as well.

Also, what do you mean by that setting the AVR to a 60Hz crossover, the receiver would be helped "even more"? Low bass tends to suck up power. When you crossover the mains at 60hz on the receiver it does not have to produce those lower frequencies which suck up the power. The subwoofer picks up this duty. The amp then becomes more efficient and is more stable at higher volumes.

When did I say I needed more guidance regarding a sub? I never said you did. I mentioned it to complete the picture of priorities. ;)

As far as sub suggestions go. I would look at the SVS PB12NSD, or the HSU VTF-2mk3. I have never heard SVS. I'm suggesting them based on reputation. I'm a HSU Research man. I use the STF-2 and it's a great sub for the price. My next sub will be the VTF-2.

Now, with #s 1 and 2, you are most likely correct. This will also help with the dynamics you feel your lacking.
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
On another note you should really get some pictures taken of your system and post them. This will really help with suggestions. :)
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
For raw power I would go with the 1007 or above. However you stated the 1007 was probably more than you needed feature wise. So I suggested the 807 or 707. My gut tells me the 807 would be fine with your speakers. Especially when using a sub. If it's not you could send it back or add an external amp.
Okay -- so I shall narrow it down to the 1007 or the 807. Like you said -- if it's not enough for my speakers, I can always tack on the power amp because it will have preamp outs...

I would tend to agree with Menasor. 60hz is a good crossover point. It's probably what I would go with as well.
...but nothing lower? Is the 60Hz point allowing the 12's to hit a bit deeper, as to get a bit of their bass as well?

Low bass tends to suck up power. When you crossover the mains at 60hz on the receiver it does not have to produce those lower frequencies which suck up the power. The subwoofer picks up this duty. The amp then becomes more efficient and is more stable at higher volumes.
Oh, right, this I know -- but this has always been the theory of the 80Hz setting on AVRs, so I didn't know what you meant by "60Hz would be even better" because it seemed as though dropping the crossover to 60Hz would somehow make the AVR even more efficient than any other setting (outside of full range)...

I never said you did. I mentioned it to complete the picture of priorities. ;)
But what I am saying is, I have been admitting to this issue from the beginning -- that I know the sub is a problem and a very weak link. So it seemed as though you were implying that I didn't recognize it as "truth."

As far as sub suggestions go. I would look at the SVS PB12NSD, or the HSU VTF-2mk3. I have never heard SVS. I'm suggesting them based on reputation. I'm a HSU Research man. I use the STF-2 and it's a great sub for the price. My next sub will be the VTF-2.
Thank you.

This will also help with the dynamics you feel your lacking.
Even before upgrading the power supply?
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
On another note you should really get some pictures taken of your system and post them. This will really help with suggestions. :)
What would that have to do with the dynamics I feel are lacking, or the theory of the 605 not being able to drive the RTi12s?
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
What would that have to do with the dynamics I feel are lacking, or the theory of the 605 not being able to drive the RTi12s?
It had nothing to do with dynamics. It's just nice to see peoples systems. It helps with suggestions on equipment and placement.
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
...but nothing lower? Is the 60Hz point allowing the 12's to hit a bit deeper, as to get a bit of their bass as well?
There is no set standard except for the 80hz THX suggestion. Some prefer crossing lower when they have big full range towers because the bass becomes less localized. 80hz tends to be the upper end cut off to not knowing where the bass is coming from. Going higher and one can hear the bass coming from the sub. Ideally this is not wanted. One should not hear where the bass is coming from. It should just integrate seamlessly with the system.

You can be have an accurate setup either way. It all comes down to preference. 60hz is a good compromise in keeping the receiver from being over burdened and letting the mains open up a bit.

Even before upgrading the power supply?
A bigger center channel and subwoofer will help with dynamics due to the fact they are capable higher power handling and less distortion. You don't necessarily need a ton of power to achieve this though. Just an efficient speaker. Which the Polks are.
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
There is no set standard except for the 80hz THX suggestion. Some prefer crossing lower when they have big full range towers because the bass becomes less localized. 80hz tends to be the upper end cut off to not knowing where the bass is coming from. Going higher and one can hear the bass coming from the sub. Ideally this is not wanted. One should not hear where the bass is coming from. It should just integrate seamlessly with the system.
Right...

You can be have an accurate setup either way. It all comes down to preference. 60hz is a good compromise in keeping the receiver from being over burdened and letting the mains open up a bit.
Understood. Probably why it was suggested to me by Menasor; but what about dropping the 12's to something lower than 60Hz -- is this not recommended?

A bigger center channel and subwoofer will help with dynamics due to the fact they are capable higher power handling and less distortion. You don't necessarily need a ton of power to achieve this though. Just an efficient speaker. Which the Polks are.
Which Polks -- the 12s or the CSi5. or all of them?
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
When I Google "CSi5," the Polk site link doesn't give any info about which speaker it mates best with...

Where exactly are you looking?
The CSi5 was the largest center from the RTi line. The 12's are the largest speaker from that line. I just put 2 and 2 together. :) If you don't believe me ask Polk. :);)
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
Right...



Understood. Probably why it was suggested to me by Menasor; but what about dropping the 12's to something lower than 60Hz -- is this not recommended?



Which Polks -- the 12s or the CSi5. or all of them?
All of them. The bigger center will help with midrange dynamics and help fill in the center image better. The sub will extend the bass response which helps with visceral impact.

Well 40hz is typically the lowest setting a receiver has. Your 12's go to the low 30's. So yes you could try it. However to maintain good efficiency right now I would stick with 60hz with the 605 until you you get a bigger receiver.
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
The CSi5 was the largest center from the RTi line. The 12's are the largest speaker from that line. I just put 2 and 2 together. :) If you don't believe me ask Polk. :);)
Oh, well I didn't know you were doing that -- and I didn't know the CSi5 was from the "RTi" line of speakers; either way, it doesn't matter...I saw the recommendation when you go to the RTi12's page. At the bottom, it's suggested that the CSi5 be coupled with these...
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
All of them. The bigger center will help with midrange dynamics and help fill in the center image better. The sub will extend the bass response which helps with visceral impact.
I meant which Polks are you saying are efficient?

Well 40hz is typically the lowest setting a receiver has. Your 12's go to the low 30's. So yes you could try it. However to maintain good efficiency right now I would stick with 60hz with the 605 until you you get a bigger receiver.
Do the 12's really go to the low 30s? This is lower than the PSW350 sub is capable of, no? That's pretty embarassing...

I will stick to 60Hz right now. Thanks.
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
I meant which Polks are you saying are efficient?



Do the 12's really go to the low 30s? This is lower than the PSW350 sub is capable of, no? That's pretty embarassing...

I will stick to 60Hz right now. Thanks.
All Polk speakers are pretty efficient until you get to the LSi line. Which are a 4 ohm load.

Yes they go to the low 30's. That's why I suggested in one of your other threads to run them full range. I still think you should try it. You won't hurt anything. You just might no have the dynamic headroom you get with the 60hz crossover. But none the less I think you might be surprised at what your 605 is capable of.
 

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