:: ELITE calibration/Bass setback::

R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
Guys,

Maybe someone can help me. I acquired ELITE VSX-21TXH receiver with Energy 5.1 micro speaker system, placing this setup in a bedroom. ELITE uses MCACCA calibration (which I ran), but I am not satisfied with bass response, sound seems to be washed out (treble seems really good) When calibratibrating my woofer volume was set to mid way, and low-pass filter at 150hz (recommended by speaker makers). Are there any forums on ELITE receivers? My receiver is able to be plugged in to PC to upload graphs of the settings. I got myself in a pickle, and have a midrange knowledge of av. I know the potential is there to satisfy my love for sound perfection. Are there any software, or devices that can guide me in the right direction to make my sound satisfying?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Guys,

Maybe someone can help me. I acquired ELITE VSX-21TXH receiver with Energy 5.1 micro speaker system, placing this setup in a bedroom. ELITE uses MCACCA calibration (which I ran), but I am not satisfied with bass response, sound seems to be washed out (treble seems really good) When calibratibrating my woofer volume was set to mid way, and low-pass filter at 150hz (recommended by speaker makers). Are there any forums on ELITE receivers? My receiver is able to be plugged in to PC to upload graphs of the settings. I got myself in a pickle, and have a midrange knowledge of av. I know the potential is there to satisfy my love for sound perfection. Are there any software, or devices that can guide me in the right direction to make my sound satisfying?
Your problem is unrealistic expectations. Micro system = Micro bass.

Those satellites have an F3 of 150 Hz. It is not really possible to splice a sub that high and get realistic results. So most of the range 80 to 150 Hz that most perceive as bass is going to be poorly reproduced. Their is no way round the physics of it, no matter how glowing the manufacturer's literature might be.

If you don't like it get speakers with an F3 some where near 60 Hz anyway.
 
R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
TLS Guy,

Thank you for advise, but on this one I will disagree.. I am not looking for miracle with my setup, but definitely expect better performance. Did my research before purchasing these components, and although this is a small speaker set, reviews showed that the sound response is very impressive. I heard even smaller subwoofers that delivered very satisfying response. In conclusion my setup has plenty of overhead for improvement, that is why I am asking this question here. I dont think its my components, but my lack of understanding more complex settings deep within the receiver, which I need to learn. Better understanding the way signal is split, processed and delivered to each speaker. Small example would be EQ, if someone does not understand what it is, and does not utilize it then he is missing out, and is unaware that the sound can be much better.


PS. You have a really nice setup, I am sure nothing is as good as what you have, it is a spoil of hi end...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
TLS Guy,

Thank you for advise, but on this one I will disagree.. I am not looking for miracle with my setup, but definitely expect better performance. Did my research before purchasing these components, and although this is a small speaker set, reviews showed that the sound response is very impressive. I heard even smaller subwoofers that delivered very satisfying response. In conclusion my setup has plenty of overhead for improvement, that is why I am asking this question here. I dont think its my components, but my lack of understanding more complex settings deep within the receiver, which I need to learn. Better understanding the way signal is split, processed and delivered to each speaker. Small example would be EQ, if someone does not understand what it is, and does not utilize it then he is missing out, and is unaware that the sound can be much better.

PS. You have a really nice setup, I am sure nothing is as good as what you have, it is a spoil of hi end...
You are up against physics. Your satellites cut out too high up to make a good blend. An F3 is high up and well into the range where sound is directional.

So the only way to get that system to work is to turn it into a full three way. That means putting a sub under each satellite with a crossover at 150 Hz at the lowest.

I know you read rosy reviews, but they are bogus. I have been dealing with speakers for over 50 years, and know what works and what does not. A satellite cutting off at 150 Hz to a sub remote from the satellites is in the won't work category. It will give you sound, but accuracy and high fidelity absolutely not.

I should expand my remarks so you know what the problem is.

A sub system can only work effectively if the satellite speakers can get to around 80 Hz, may be 100Hz at a push, but even the latter is less than ideal.

Your speakers are only reproducing to 150 Hz. A sub on the floor even if it could reproduce to 150 HZ, would suffer severe loss of frequencies above 80 Hz by masking and adsorption etc. So in essence you have a gap of about an octave, and that octave is really important. Without it, it will sound like you describe.

Your satellites only reach 150 Hz by the manufacturers specifications, so you could have figured this out before hand. Receivers do not generally allow for a crossover to be set at 150 Hz, I know my Marantz pre/pro does not. So the best you can do is set the crossover in your receiver as high as it will allow, but I bet you will still have a significant frequency gap in a vital area.
 
Last edited:
R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
You are up against physics. Your satellites cut out too high up to make a good blend. An F3 is high up and well into the range where sound is directional.

So the only way to get that system to work is to turn it into a full three way. That means putting a sub under each satellite with a crossover at 150 Hz at the lowest.

I know you read rosy reviews, but they are bogus. I have been dealing with speakers for over 50 years, and know what works and what does not. A satellite cutting off at 150 Hz to a sub remote from the satellites is in the won't work category. It will give you sound, but accuracy and high fidelity absolutely not.

I should expand my remarks so you know what the problem is.

A sub system can only work effectively if the satellite speakers can get to around 80 Hz, may be 100Hz at a push, but even the latter is less than ideal.

Your speakers are only reproducing to 150 Hz. A sub on the floor even if it could reproduce to 150 HZ, would suffer severe loss of frequencies above 80 Hz by masking and adsorption etc. So in essence you have a gap of about an octave, and that octave is really important. Without it, it will sound like you describe.

Your satellites only reach 150 Hz by the manufacturers specifications, so you could have figured this out before hand. Receivers do not generally allow for a crossover to be set at 150 Hz, I know my Marantz pre/pro does not. So the best you can do is set the crossover in your receiver as high as it will allow, but I bet you will still have a significant frequency gap in a vital area.
TLS,
Maybe the blend isnt perfect, but in non hi-end it does the job, I think this is picky. I am not aiming for sound perfection, but sound that makes me happy

On reviews of this speaker setup I checked different sources (pro reviews, consumer, and respected review websites (odds are against you =), but seriously, I did my homework, and was confident that these will do the trick what I am looking for.
I really respect your knowledge and knowhow science behind audio reproduction, and I am sure your 50 years of experience showed you how to choose amazing hi-end setup (amazing speakers you have!). Some people will never experience sound perfection that you prabobly have. Having said that in the real world, where people cannot afford $30,000 (you can then be picky about sound reproduction, only settle for perfection you expect to be anal about every detail of the speaker small details like the Hz ranges, etc..)
I am a average joe that wants to make the best of what hes got, and need to settle for something less than hi end sound. All I know is that there is room for improvement, and this is why I am here asking questions. It is impossible for you to judge my sound by putting some numbers together and judging quality by few numbers.
All I know is this: These speakers can do much better but my lack of know-how are restricting a good sound coming from them. I heard cheap setups that had a better sound than mine, and the brands I chose are respected, and proven to work really well for us average joes. There is always room for improvement to maximize what you got, it can sound better!
I dont know if this might help me, but my receiver is able to graph these measurments/readings from the receiver. If I send it to you, or receiver support would you be able to help and advise what I need to tweak?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
VSX-21 is very good AVR and should serve you long time, but TLS is right, micro speakers=micro sound.
I'd suggest you to change your LCRs for bigger speakers and keep 2 micro's for surrounds and sub (for now)
possible contenders: 3x of speakers below:
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/548149688/polk-csr-black

Another possible issue is room size, Micro system might really work well in small spaces. Please provide your bedroom measurements and if it's open to any other spaces...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
TLS,
Maybe the blend isnt perfect, but in non hi-end it does the job, I think this is picky. I am not aiming for sound perfection, but sound that makes me happy

On reviews of this speaker setup I checked different sources (pro reviews, consumer, and respected review websites (odds are against you =), but seriously, I did my homework, and was confident that these will do the trick what I am looking for.
I really respect your knowledge and knowhow science behind audio reproduction, and I am sure your 50 years of experience showed you how to choose amazing hi-end setup (amazing speakers you have!). Some people will never experience sound perfection that you prabobly have. Having said that in the real world, where people cannot afford $30,000 (you can then be picky about sound reproduction, only settle for perfection you expect to be anal about every detail of the speaker small details like the Hz ranges, etc..)
I am a average joe that wants to make the best of what hes got, and need to settle for something less than hi end sound. All I know is that there is room for improvement, and this is why I am here asking questions. It is impossible for you to judge my sound by putting some numbers together and judging quality by few numbers.
All I know is this: These speakers can do much better but my lack of know-how are restricting a good sound coming from them. I heard cheap setups that had a better sound than mine, and the brands I chose are respected, and proven to work really well for us average joes. There is always room for improvement to maximize what you got, it can sound better!
I dont know if this might help me, but my receiver is able to graph these measurments/readings from the receiver. If I send it to you, or receiver support would you be able to help and advise what I need to tweak?
I did download your receiver manual, but it did not tell me the upper crossover limit. However if it can't be crossed over at 150 Hz, then there is no tweaking that will help you. You are up against a brick wall at that point.

You can PM me any material you want.
 
R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
When hearing these speakers on a well calibrated receiver I was more than pleased on bass/mid/heights, so i know what they deliver.. My issue is not satellite speakers (They are crisp in heights), but the bass needs tweaking. The setup is tiny, but a 8" woofer is plenty for my small room. I am confident Energy, the manufacturer knows what they are doing, afterall that is all that they do.

Let me clerify again why I am here:

1. I have a amazing receiver with tons of features, ability to fine tune to my situation, utulize tools in the receiver to close in the gap that the speakers lack
2. Auto Calibration does a good job, but now I need to open the hood and find ways I can fine tune the sound

3. One tool that I know of is eq settings, it is there to help you achieve sound you are looking for. Again, what other settings can I dig into to improve this? More volume into the sub? use eq?

Cannot believe that there arent any solutions. Betcha if I hired a audio professional to calibrate what I got, use ELITE tools it would sound million times better, and go beyond my expectations. Crossover might not cover full range, but I am sure there are ways to fill in the gap. There are many variables that can help me achieve what I am looking for
I appriciate your advice, but still looking for constructive criticism of what I got and make it the best it can be. Again I heard these speakers in action with the right calibration, here and now I am not getting this from my speakers. Droppin 1 octave, and missing a small range wont matter if I apply the right amount of tweaks
 
R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
TLS,

Thank you for the time, and great advice. I am not too concent what is missing from the equasion, just want to hear what I heard with well calibrated receiver, it is satisfying. I dont know if they bumped up the bass eq settings 1000% or what, but eq is 1 example that improves the sound, I need to find all the settings. Maybe you dont know all the factors that limit the bass, maybe I used coat hanger for speaker wire, maybe I set wrong ohms.. Whatever it is I know what they need to sound like. Maybe a pro calibration isnt a bad idea, I will post a followup


Thank you again
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Guys,

Maybe someone can help me. I acquired ELITE VSX-21TXH receiver with Energy 5.1 micro speaker system, placing this setup in a bedroom. ELITE uses MCACCA calibration (which I ran), but I am not satisfied with bass response, sound seems to be washed out (treble seems really good) When calibratibrating my woofer volume was set to mid way, and low-pass filter at 150hz (recommended by speaker makers). Are there any forums on ELITE receivers? My receiver is able to be plugged in to PC to upload graphs of the settings. I got myself in a pickle, and have a midrange knowledge of av. I know the potential is there to satisfy my love for sound perfection. Are there any software, or devices that can guide me in the right direction to make my sound satisfying?
If I remember correctly*, MCAAC does absolutely nothing for LFE. I assume it will do something for redirected bass from satellites, HOWEVER, it stops correction as soon as 63hz or so.

Ok, I double checked. MCAAC does nothing at all, for the subwoofer, period.

It will only correct for mains down to 63hz. In fact, it corrects at the very particular freq's of 63 and 125hz. Nothing in between. Don't expect too much here*.

For the sub, MCAAC does choose output, xover, and distance.
 
R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
What are my options? Something that is not so expencive... Do I buy better crossover for the speakers, buy a new speaker driver?
 
R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
I have some other connections on the woofer (speaker level in), would this be solution to my setback?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
What are my options? Something that is not so expencive... Do I buy better crossover for the speakers, buy a new speaker driver?
I fear you don't really have many. Now, I think experimenting with speaker placements, sub placement, and listener placement, are maybe the hugest factors there are, outside of speakers of choice . . . but TLS is one of the true speaker experts here, and what he is saying is true:

You just can't really have high expectations with bass or even the mid-bass here.

Xover? The ones inside the speaker are specifically designed for that speaker. Forget the speaker driver upgrade; look towards new speakers altogether if this really bothers you. Hey, the package is known as a good value on the mega cheap, for something that is small as possible, usually for WAF reasons. You have to understand the design limitations/constraints.

I have some other connections on the woofer (speaker level in), would this be solution to my setback?
No, because of the speaker situation. The xover on the sub is unable to retrieve the LFE signal as well, ok your receiver might redirect LFE to mains (because that's the signal the sub would see here), but it will be extremely attenuated. I've read 20x might be normal. To protect both receiver and/or speakers.

Don't feel too bad though. Hey, I started this madness with an Onkyo HTIB. Yeah, I may have wasted $400 or so, but I really enjoyed it for about half a year, which also gave me time to learn a lot, and go listen to a boat load of speakers.
 
R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
I really appriciate your expertice. The sound is pretty good, just trying to dish out every whisper I can from this.
Oh, one more thing... My 5.1 speakers are almost brand new, and one option is to sell it.

Quick pointer; What should I be looking for when buying surround sound speakers. I do not want to run to the same problem again. I am on a budget of course, but I am sure there are good speaker sets that will eliminate my small setback...?

Thanks again!
 
R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
Two more questions, sorry..
You have suggested I buy 2 front speakers to divert my setback, and use current speakers for rear surround. Will this truly solve my issue by placing 2 new front speakers with the right frequency?

My receiver is able to show various graphs when calibrating and measuring different aspect of sound. I need to find best spot for my subwoofer to be efficient and sound good. I can store several different presets...

Thank you again!
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Two more questions, sorry..
You have suggested I buy 2 front speakers to divert my setback, and use current speakers for rear surround. Will this truly solve my issue by placing 2 new front speakers with the right frequency?

My receiver is able to show various graphs when calibrating and measuring different aspect of sound. I need to find best spot for my subwoofer to be efficient and sound good. I can store several different presets...

Thank you again!
I actually suggested getting THREE new front speakers, not 2, since Left/Center/Right must be timbre matched and it's almost impossible with different speakers brands. I recommended Polk center speakers, since they are inexpensive, manufacturer claims to have F3 at 60Hz and you can use two centers as mains and place them vertically (on wall or on stands).

Or as you mentioned you could sell the whole 5.1 set and start with good 2.1 set and work your way up as budget allows.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
When hearing these speakers on a well calibrated receiver I was more than pleased on bass/mid/heights, so i know what they deliver.. My issue is not satellite speakers (They are crisp in heights), but the bass needs tweaking. The setup is tiny, but a 8" woofer is plenty for my small room. I am confident Energy, the manufacturer knows what they are doing, afterall that is all that they do.

Let me clerify again why I am here:

1. I have a amazing receiver with tons of features, ability to fine tune to my situation, utulize tools in the receiver to close in the gap that the speakers lack
2. Auto Calibration does a good job, but now I need to open the hood and find ways I can fine tune the sound

3. One tool that I know of is eq settings, it is there to help you achieve sound you are looking for. Again, what other settings can I dig into to improve this? More volume into the sub? use eq?

Cannot believe that there arent any solutions. Betcha if I hired a audio professional to calibrate what I got, use ELITE tools it would sound million times better, and go beyond my expectations. Crossover might not cover full range, but I am sure there are ways to fill in the gap. There are many variables that can help me achieve what I am looking for
I appriciate your advice, but still looking for constructive criticism of what I got and make it the best it can be. Again I heard these speakers in action with the right calibration, here and now I am not getting this from my speakers. Droppin 1 octave, and missing a small range wont matter if I apply the right amount of tweaks
Unfortunately you have had a learning experience.

In fairness to Energy, they do state that these speakers have to be crossed over between 120 and 180 Hz.

The specs of the sub say that it has a response as high as 180 Hz, which is unusual for a sub. Optimal crossover is in the 60 to 80 Hz area. Generally you should choose a crossover point somewhat above the F3 of the satellites/main speakers. I would say optimal for your system would be a crossover of 180 Hz. I'm not aware of a receiver that has a crossover that high any longer. So there is a real problem, in that that speaker system can not function optimally with most, if any, receivers on the market.

Most receivers are not designed to work with this situation, and I doubt yours is.

The next issue is the bedroom, as if that sub is to work correctly, it needs to be placed between the speakers, as at the range it will operate you will localize it. It will also have to be placed way away from deadening materials such as a bed.

May be when you heard it, the speakers were placed to get some room gain on the lower end and the receiver had a crossover setting higher than usual. I don't know.

Some people seem to be happy with set ups like this, with the sub turned up high, enveloping the whole scene in acoustic goo. These set ups are far too common. Unfortunately for you, you have a more accurate and critical sense of how things should sound.

As far as Eq is concerned, that will not work, as the boost required would burn out the small satellites as well as result in high distortion. So that is not a realistic option. It takes a really beefy expensive woofer in a sealed box to tolerate low end Eq.

The final issue is that you must understand speakers are totally dominant in the sound of your system, including their room interaction.

Generally you should spend 2:1 on speakers over everything else.

From your post I doubt you are ever going to be happy with this speaker system, or any speaker system at the bottom end of the market.

So I would look at bookshelf speaker systems and a sub in the +/- 2K range for all speakers. That is no guarantee of good results, so you will have to shop and audition carefully.
 
R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
TLS,

You sure know your av principles, I like to thank you for sharing the knowledge. There are so many people asking a pro about their setup, and I greatly appriciate your time, sorry I am a bug all the time. I wish we discussed this two months ago when I did my choosing. I know my receiver is pretty good, but I would of selected other 5.1 speaker configuration/package. Right now I have no option to go out a buy more speakers, so I will have to work around this... Its not a disaster, as a matter a fact my first calibration (which I saved as a preset and then deleted to try other things) worked really well!! I am not exposed to sound perfection, although I strive to get the best what my budget allows, yet these little bastards impressed me on detail level, sub was good, but on the back of my head I told myself this can be improved on by tweaking settings in the receiver... Overall this works for me, it impressed me in other areas.
I will try to play around with crossovers in the receiver like you suggested it. Question is what settings do I need to have on the woofer so I can try receiver crossover?
To all of you guys, I thank you, and I have great news.. I ordered some crash course books to brush up on my understanding of sound, and how it is delivered.. I dont want to throw stupid questions, and want to understand myself, then I will be a happy camper!
Thanks again!!

Ps, I cannot offer you any of my knowledge of sound, but any IT questions, I am your man!
Cheers
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
TLS,

You sure know your av principles, I like to thank you for sharing the knowledge. There are so many people asking a pro about their setup, and I greatly appriciate your time, sorry I am a bug all the time. I wish we discussed this two months ago when I did my choosing. I know my receiver is pretty good, but I would of selected other 5.1 speaker configuration/package. Right now I have no option to go out a buy more speakers, so I will have to work around this... Its not a disaster, as a matter a fact my first calibration (which I saved as a preset and then deleted to try other things) worked really well!! I am not exposed to sound perfection, although I strive to get the best what my budget allows, yet these little bastards impressed me on detail level, sub was good, but on the back of my head I told myself this can be improved on by tweaking settings in the receiver... Overall this works for me, it impressed me in other areas.
I will try to play around with crossovers in the receiver like you suggested it. Question is what settings do I need to have on the woofer so I can try receiver crossover?
To all of you guys, I thank you, and I have great news.. I ordered some crash course books to brush up on my understanding of sound, and how it is delivered.. I dont want to throw stupid questions, and want to understand myself, then I will be a happy camper!
Thanks again!!

Ps, I cannot offer you any of my knowledge of sound, but any IT questions, I am your man!
Cheers
Set the woofer crossover as high as it goes. Set the receiver crossover as close to 150 Hz as you can. That is the best you can do.
 
R

rlubocki

Audioholic Intern
TLS,

I checked settings on my ELITE, and the crossover range goes up to 200,
(here is a screenshot what the menu looks like, ignore speaker size, this screen was taken from manual, I have it set as small speakers)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/75587913@N00/4682500426/sizes/m

Should I max the crossover to 200? or just 150?
To sum it up, when calibrating set the woofer knobs to half-way for volume, 150hz for low-pass filter. When auto calibration is done, I need to go back to Receiver speaker setup menu and max the crossover to the highest setting (as you advise 150hz, or 200hz.





Here are the Energy speakers specification:
Frequency Response: Sat: 150Hz-23kHz; Subwoofer: 36Hz-180Hz +/- 3dB
Crossover Point: 3.5 kHz
Sensitivity: 88dB
Power Handling: Sat & Center: 240 Watts
Recommended Amplifier Power: 20 - 100 Watts RMS (Continous)
Impedance: 8-ohm compatible
Subwoofer Variable Low Pass Filter: 40Hz-150Hz
Tweeter: 0.5-inch (12.7mm) hyperbolic aluminum dome
Midrange: 2.5-inch (63.5mm) high-excursion aluminum cone
Woofer: 8-inch (20 cm) Injection molded cone with Ribbed Elliptical surround
Thank you!!
 
Last edited:
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top