Power Conditioner Recommendations

[Highlander]

Flood to a dam is a massive quantity of water.

Flood is water that will flow no matter what.

If a 'flood to a dam is a massive quantity of water' being retained, where is it flowing?

Any attempt to stop a flood means water height increases as necessary so that the same water will still flow.

Any body of water will increase in depth if prevented from flowing from its natural outlet. The fact that water level rises as a natural consequence is irrelevant because the dam will have been designed and constructed to a height that safely accomodates it.

The original goal of a dam is not to prevent water from flowing altogether, but to prevent flooding downstream. Of course many modern dams are less concerned about flooding, if at all, and exist simply to generate electricity.

Neither a flood nor a surge is stopped. In both cases, the solution is always to give the water or electrons a shorter, non-destructive and more conductive path downriver or into earth.

Water discharged by a dam is generally regulated in terms of time and volume. The water does not travel a 'shorter path', nor is the path 'more conductive' than its natural course.

 

[westom]

If a 'flood to a dam is a massive quantity of water' being retained, where is it flowing?

No dam stops that flood just like no surge protector stops that surge. That flood either overflows the dam or blows through the dam.

And that was explained previously. Are you posting just to argue? Or to learn a concept?

Electricity flows on a lowest impedance path (called the shortest path only to keep it simpler). A lowest impedance path for a flood is the wider downstream path. Also called 'shorter' only to make the concept simpler.

 

[Highlander]

No dam stops that flood just like no surge protector stops that surge. That flood either overflows the dam or blows through the dam.

Water retained by dams is never level with the top of the dam. The spillway level is itself lower, resulting in any excess water being discharged long before it could 'overflow' the dam as a whole.

There is nothing wrong with an increase in the level of the retained water as a result of a 'flood', where a 'flood' is considered to be a large increase in water falling within the dam's catchment area over a short time period; the dam will have been designed to have a factor of safety against failure even were the water level to exceed that of the spillway.

For water to 'blow through' the dam, the latter would have been inadequately designed, constructed, or both.

Are you posting just to argue?

Not at all. You first raised the analogy involving dams. I have an interest in, and some small knowledge of, such structures and was interested in what you meant by 'flood', as it appeared to me that you may have been misinformed.

Electricity flows on a lowest impedance path (called the shortest path only to keep it simpler). A lowest impedance path for a flood is the wider downstream path. Also called 'shorter' only to make the concept simpler.

By 'shortest path' do you refer to the fact that the body of water retained by the dam is always 'looking' for a way to reach a state of minimal potential energy?

 

[JerryLove]

Not at all. You first raised the analogy involving dams. I have an interest in, and some small knowledge of, such structures and was interested in what you meant by 'flood', as it appeared to me that you may have been misinformed.

It's OK. His understanding of power surges isn't much better

 

[lbolts20]

Job one for any home these days, is whole house surge protection, not strips. Almost everything these does uses microprocessors chips: - furnaces, stoves, refrigerators, washing machines, on and on.

A unit like this installed by your electrician is highly recommended.

Next for expensive items like TVs, receivers, prepros, and disc players, you need a device the will control voltages high and low within tight parameters within 1 to 5 msec. They device needs to have batteries to do this. Also it needs to go to battery right away during severe disturbances and power outages, and be able to do a soft power done of your sensitive equipment in longer outages.

I can recommend refurbs from this outfit.

My best estimate is that 75% of failures and repair bills, at least, are due to not installing this type of equipment.

This is part of the design for any house and set up and should be part of the basics. It is money well spent and excellent insurance.

okay I read this thread and I'm confused. I have nothing at all in my home now and it's about 5 years old in a new subdivions with no history of power problems.

Basically buy what's linked here and good to go? Not sure in the link for upsforless what to buy as it didn't bring me to a certain product.

 

[westom]

okay I read this thread and I'm confused. I have nothing at all in my home now and it's about 5 years old in a new subdivions with no history of power problems.

Go to Lowes. Ask for the Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) 'whole house' protector. That (or something equivalent) is what you need. If you do not touch it, then most of what was posted will make no sense.

Ask him for his earth ground rods. You must see one in Lowes to know what to look for at your house. You must determine that is exists - and where. When done, that less than $50 'whole house' protector will a quarter inch bare copper wire that connects short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to that earth ground rod.

If every other incoming wire (ie cable TV, telephone) also makes a short connection to that same earth ground, then you now have everything that most homeowners need for appliance protection. You are now ready for direct lightning strikes without damage. And you should never know if that surge existed.

 

[highfigh]

Go to Lowes. Ask for the Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) 'whole house' protector. That (or something equivalent) is what you need. If you do not touch it, then most of what was posted will make no sense.

Ask him for his earth ground rods. You must see one in Lowes to know what to look for at your house. You must determine that is exists - and where. When done, that less than $50 'whole house' protector will a quarter inch bare copper wire that connects short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to that earth ground rod.

If every other incoming wire (ie cable TV, telephone) also makes a short connection to that same earth ground, then you now have everything that most homeowners need for appliance protection. You are now ready for direct lightning strikes without damage. And you should never know if that surge existed.

Why are you assuming the house isn't grounded with a rod? First of all, NEC now requires two rods, connected to the breaker panel with one unbroken conductor. Second, in a 5 year old house, it may already have a whole house protector, since many of the better builders are including them.

BTW- that protector you mentioned is sacrificial in the event that a large enough strike occurs, although it's better to lose that than the house and occupants.

If you feel like arguing this point, look at the ratings for it and you'll see that it doesn't come close to a direct lightning strike.

 

[Rickster71]

Please ignore post #106

 

[westom]

Why are you assuming the house isn't grounded with a rod?

Did you see repeated references to "meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code"? Did you see references to all wires meet at the same earth ground? Did you see the repeated 'less than 10 feet'? Why did you assume that only meeting the National Electrical code is sufficient when wire impedance says otherwise?

Only few builders - almost none - install a 'whole house' protector. If homes were constructed with surge protection, then the footings would be poured with an Ufer ground. Furthermore, your posts demonstrate a bias. Had you grasped these concepts, then your questions were constantly about earth ground. Protectors are simple science. The art is earthing. How many times did you ignore this phrase: "A protector is only as effective as its earth ground."

A protector rated for 50,000 amps or greater will safely earth 20,000 amps - a typical direct lightning strike. And remain functional. A sacrificial protector is near zero or no protection. And a threat to human life. Why do your accuse without numbers? Knowledge from hearsay is subjective - no numbers. Why do you invent accusation as necessary rather than first learn the simple science - the numbers. How does a 50,000 amp protector become sacrificial during a 20,000 amp direct lightning strike? It doesn't. You invented the accusation rather than learn the numbers.

The informed homeowner starts with an inspection of the earthing electrodes. (This already has the wackos among us are seething.) Does earthing both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code? How far is ground from the protector. Any sharp bends? Then earthing is insufficient. Is that ground wire bundled with other wires? Again, a defect. You never discuss the most critical component in every protection system because retail propaganda does not discuss earthing. Every protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Why is this so difficult?

 

[jneutron]

If homes were constructed with surge protection, then the footings would be poured with an Ufer ground.

Really??? So, surge protectors are not possible without Ufer ground?

That's not what the experts say..so why make this up??

Protectors are simple science.

Then why do you not understand them? You do not grasp the simplest concepts regarding surge protectors, yet that has not stopped you from blathering on..

How many times did you ignore this phrase: "A protector is only as effective as its earth ground."

How many times have you repeated it?? All but the first have been ignored...

Yet you nausiously repeat the same old thing over and over again in response to everything stated.. this is still your response to "the sky is blue".

And yet, that statement is incorrect. Line to line and line to neutral transients and faults are not clamped by an earth ground in a residential feed. Period.


If you understood what you were talking about, you would stop providing that INCORRECT statement...

A protector rated for 50,000 amps or greater will safely earth 20,000 amps - a typical direct lightning strike.

A whole house spd will FRY in response to a direct hit. Show us ANY manufacturer which states that it's whole house in panel protector will survive this. Numbers dude, numbers. If you even understood what 8/20 meant, you'd be dangerous. Go ahead, google it...and then post some wisdom..

How does a 50,000 amp protector become sacrificial during a 20,000 amp direct lightning strike?

By exploding, dude...LEARN THE TOPIC!!!! Stop providing dangerous advice.

The informed homeowner starts with...

Ignoring the incorrect rants of some wannabe engineer on an internet forum.

That be you, dude. Learn the material.

To all who may read this person's rants: Do not listen to him. Rather, seek the advice of a real professional on this topic, one who actually knows and understands it.

Cheers, John

 

[TLS Guy]

A really good ground however is highly desirable, as tying everything, cable service, phone etc, to a really good house ground goes a long way to preventing hums and buzzes, and can't be a bad thing in helping to prevent lightening penetration.

 

[jneutron]

A really good ground however is highly desirable, as tying everything, cable service, phone etc, to a really good house ground goes a long way to preventing hums and buzzes, and can't be a bad thing in helping to prevent lightening penetration.

Tying all the systems to one common reference ground is indeed a very good thing. Early on in the "day", it became understood that untoward events could easily cause a difference in potential between lines coming into a building if they earthed at different locations. The events are in several classes..

1. Faults in the power delivery system that passed the unbalanced neutral currents through the earth. A three phase high voltage system where one phase load drops causes neutral currents to flow, and this can actually cause voltage gradients across the soil of the properties. Indeed, the residential delivery of power on the east coast has every second or third pole earthing the neutral, and this results in 5% to 10% of the neutral current returning to the pole via the soil (not to be confused with the term "earth"..) On the west coast, they use what is called "two bushing transformers", which isolate hv neutrals from residential neutrals. On the east coast, the pole transformers are actually auto-transformers, and the residential neutral is shared by the hv distributed grid neutral.

2. A nearby ground to cloud strike. This produces voltage gradients, generally in a circular pattern around the point of hit. The gradient generally falls off as 1/R or 1/R squared depending on ground conductivity patterns, but there are some geologic conditions which squeeze the current linearly..like moist soil layered over non conductive rock.

3. A nearby ground to cloud, or cloud to cloud, which causes reference differences based on loop induction. Generally falls off as 1/R, and is dependent on the loop angle of incidence..note that this effect is the very reason whole house spd's cannot protect two port devices...the loop formed by the signal wire ground to power delivery ground can generate transient levels which the appliance is not designed to survive. This is where two port spd's are the ONLY way to stop induced voltage transients. (edit: This is a very important issue for the power companies, as the distribution grid is very large, so lightning caused induction based transients must be dealt with at the grid level. This is also very important for high energy physics accelerators which are hundreds to thousands of meters in diameter. Dielectric breaks around the ring are necessary as are prevention of loops formed by common supplies feeding magnets around the rings.)

W-dude always mis-apply's Martzloff's "upside down house paper" with the chicken little shtick of "spd's don't work"...what Martzloff actually does is outline how reference potential differences as a result of incoming lines on opposite sides of the house can destroy appliances which are two port.

The Mike Holt website has quite a few articles from real professionals which detail the typical power delivery problems, it's a good place to peruse.

Cheers, John

 

[highfigh]

Did you see repeated references to "meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code"? Did you see references to all wires meet at the same earth ground? Did you see the repeated 'less than 10 feet'? Why did you assume that only meeting the National Electrical code is sufficient when wire impedance says otherwise?

Only few builders - almost none - install a 'whole house' protector. If homes were constructed with surge protection, then the footings would be poured with an Ufer ground. Furthermore, your posts demonstrate a bias. Had you grasped these concepts, then your questions were constantly about earth ground. Protectors are simple science. The art is earthing. How many times did you ignore this phrase: "A protector is only as effective as its earth ground."

A protector rated for 50,000 amps or greater will safely earth 20,000 amps - a typical direct lightning strike. And remain functional. A sacrificial protector is near zero or no protection. And a threat to human life. Why do your accuse without numbers? Knowledge from hearsay is subjective - no numbers. Why do you invent accusation as necessary rather than first learn the simple science - the numbers. How does a 50,000 amp protector become sacrificial during a 20,000 amp direct lightning strike? It doesn't. You invented the accusation rather than learn the numbers.

The informed homeowner starts with an inspection of the earthing electrodes. (This already has the wackos among us are seething.) Does earthing both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code? How far is ground from the protector. Any sharp bends? Then earthing is insufficient. Is that ground wire bundled with other wires? Again, a defect. You never discuss the most critical component in every protection system because retail propaganda does not discuss earthing. Every protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Why is this so difficult?

Why bother referfering to the "Post 1990" code? They make changes all the time and WRT communications grounding, they had some major changes in '05.

Those protectors are rated for ~50 thousand VOLTS, not AMPS. Also, don't assume that your area represents all of the country. Proactive electrical contractors and builders will do things better than the budget and fly-by-night cheeseball contractors.

I invented the accusation? Nice attention span. Try again.

We know proper grounding is critical- how often do we need to agree on this before you understand what some of us are posting?

Would you be satisfied if all houses were like a Faraday Cage?

 

[highfigh]

as tying everything, cable service, phone etc, to a really good house ground goes a long way to preventing hums and buzzes, and can't be a bad thing in helping to prevent lightening penetration.

That's part of the NEC and, as of '05, it's required that all communications cables be grounded to the service entrance conduit or the meter/breaker box at the demarcation point or to a cold water pipe immediately upon entering the building. They also added requirements when cabling is abandoned- it MUST be cut back and/or removed completely, to keep someone from using it later.

 

[westom]

Those protectors are rated for ~50 thousand VOLTS, not AMPS.

Obviously, surges are not measured in volts. Surges are current sources; not voltage sources. That current is will flow constant. Voltage increases as necessary so that same current will flow. Therefore protectors are rated in current.

Intermatic IG1240RCm 48,000 amps Let-through voltage 330 volts.
Leviton 51120-1 50,000 amps
Cutler-Hammer CHSPMICRO 60,000 Amps per phase
Cutler-Hammer CHSPMAX 75,000 amps per phase
Cutler-Hammer CHSPULTRA 90,000 amps

What good is a protector that permits up to 50,000 volts inside a building? Useless. Obviously protectors are measured in current - not in voltage. Better protectors with longer life expectancy have a higher current rating. That means a lower voltage for the same current. Obviously not 50,000 volts. And explains why better earthing means a more effective protector.

If you knew what a surge is and what a protector does, then you would have never posted those numbers. 50,000 volts? Please.

 

[jneutron]

Obviously, surges are not measured in volts.

Surges are certainly measured in volts. Where are you getting your information, making it up?

Surges are specified as voltages superimposed on the primary AC waveform. They can be specified as a voltage increase, a percentage of voltage increase, they are given envelopes...

The current that a surge will produce is based entirely on the impedance of the source of the voltage, the impedance of the wiring, and the I/V characteristics of any surge clamping device.

Learn the material!

Surges are current sources; not voltage sources.

LEARN THE MATERIAL.

That current is will flow constant. Voltage increases as necessary so that same current will flow.

You have no clue as to what you are speaking about.
LEARN THE MATERIAL.

Therefore protectors are rated in current.

They are rated in current because the manufacturer has no idea what the line source impedance will be in any residential application. The only thing they can be sure of is that the utility is required by law to limit the bolted fault current that can be delivered to a residence to prevent arc flash failure of the service panel. By the way, this is not so for industrial users, they must be aware of the arc flash limits of their in house equipment.

Better protectors with longer life expectancy have a higher current rating. That means a lower voltage for the same current.

NO IT DOESN"T!! That is another clueless statement on your part. You need to learn what an MOV is, how they are rated, and how they are used. You spout ridiculous things..

And explains why better earthing means a more effective protector.

It doesn't explain that at all. LEARN THE TOPIC!!!. Earthing has nothing at all to do with line to line or line to neutral surge protection. NOTHING!!. Holy mackeral you know so little.

YOU are dangerous...

Cheers, John

 

[TLS Guy]

It should be pretty obvious that current can only flow in response to voltage change, and current will be a consequence of voltage and impedance.

Good earthing can only help leak to ground discharge, and not live to neutral or phase to phase. However a good ground will really be helpful at satellite and roof antenna grounding blocks also cable and telephone entry points.

So as I have stated before, to get the best feasible protection means attending to several areas.

 

[westom]

It should be pretty obvious that current can only flow in response to voltage change, and current will be a consequence of voltage and impedance.

For surges, that is backwards. During a surge, voltage changes, as necessary, so that current flows unimpeded. Voltage is a consequence of current and impedance. In a 20,000 amp lightning strike, there is near zero voltage or massive voltage. Voltage increases as necessary so that 20,000 amps will flow when someone foolishly tried to stop or absorb a surge.

Lightning strikes wooden church steeples because wood is an electrical conductor. But not a very good conductor. Therefore a high voltage is created. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Steeple is damaged.

Franklin simply earthed a lightning rod. That 20,000 amps down a more conductive wire to earth means a near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage.

In both cases, that 20,000 amps still flows. Voltage increases as necessary so that the 20,000 amps will still flow.

Protectors are rated by a current rating - 50,000 amps. Not a voltage rating - 50,000 volts. For same reasons, lightning rods are also designed for a current - not for voltage. Effective 'whole house' protectors do what lightning rods do. Both are only as effective as their earth ground. Both are designed to conduct a current; not create a voltage.

 

[TLS Guy]

For surges, that is backwards. During a surge, voltage changes, as necessary, so that current flows unimpeded. Voltage is a consequence of current and impedance. In a 20,000 amp lightning strike, there is near zero voltage or massive voltage. Voltage increases as necessary so that 20,000 amps will flow when someone foolishly tried to stop or absorb a surge.

Lightning strikes wooden church steeples because wood is an electrical conductor. But not a very good conductor. Therefore a high voltage is created. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Steeple is damaged.

Franklin simply earthed a lightning rod. That 20,000 amps down a more conductive wire to earth means a near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage.

In both cases, that 20,000 amps still flows. Voltage increases as necessary so that the 20,000 amps will still flow.

Protectors are rated by a current rating - 50,000 amps. Not a voltage rating - 50,000 volts. For same reasons, lightning rods are also designed for a current - not for voltage. Effective 'whole house' protectors do what lightning rods do. Both are only as effective as their earth ground. Both are designed to conduct a current; not create a voltage.

Absolute Balls! You show me how you can create a current without a voltage driving it.

Your statement is a daft as saying you can pump water uphill without a head of pressure driving it. Yes your posts have a ton of daft erroneous statements, and we are all fed up with them.

 

[westom]

Absolute Balls! You show me how you can create a current without a voltage driving it.

Taught in the very first class for engineers. Voltage sources and current sources are different.

What is an electric welder or the heater coils on a stove? Near zero voltage and a large current. How can that large current exist without a large voltage? First learn simple electrical principles. Learn from any "introduction to electric circuits" book.

Surges are from current sources; not from voltage sources.