Pub sound system nightmare, need help!!

[420uk]

My first post, hope its in the right place..
Some time ago i bought a sound system to go in my pub, i explained to the sales guy from a well known and well established audio shop exactly what i needed, took the advice bought the kit and its never worked, i'm hopeing you guys may be able to shed some light or point me in the right direction to getting it sorted.
To give you an idea of the layout, the pub has 4 rooms and i needed all speakers set up to one cd player & amp, i connected all the kit as instructed but i get virtually no sound from the second, third & forth speaker sets.
The equipment i am using is:
Pioneer PD M426 CD Player
NAD C320BEE Amp
QED SS50 Transmatch 5 way speaker switch
I am only using connection on the switch A,B,C,D
The speakers connected to A are Jamo cornet 30 6 OHM (very loud)
The speakers connected to B,C,D are Jamo Compact 700 8 OHM (Virtually no sound)
I have tried replaceing the speakers on A to a spare pair of Jamo Compact 700 8 OHM but this makes the situation worse, as the volume becomes even louder on this connection and still doesnt improve the volume on the other 3 sets.
Its a total nighmare and i have no idea how to sort it, i have been told i need an impedence management system? and also it may be due to the fact the speaker cable is different in length running from the amp to the various rooms? I havnt got a clue, hope someone can help?
Regards
420uk

 

[TLS Guy]

My first post, hope its in the right place..
Some time ago i bought a sound system to go in my pub, i explained to the sales guy from a well known and well established audio shop exactly what i needed, took the advice bought the kit and its never worked, i'm hopeing you guys may be able to shed some light or point me in the right direction to getting it sorted.
To give you an idea of the layout, the pub has 4 rooms and i needed all speakers set up to one cd player & amp, i connected all the kit as instructed but i get virtually no sound from the second, third & forth speaker sets.
The equipment i am using is:
Pioneer PD M426 CD Player
NAD C320BEE Amp
QED SS50 Transmatch 5 way speaker switch
I am only using connection on the switch A,B,C,D
The speakers connected to A are Jamo cornet 30 6 OHM (very loud)
The speakers connected to B,C,D are Jamo Compact 700 8 OHM (Virtually no sound)
I have tried replaceing the speakers on A to a spare pair of Jamo Compact 700 8 OHM but this makes the situation worse, as the volume becomes even louder on this connection and still doesnt improve the volume on the other 3 sets.
Its a total nighmare and i have no idea how to sort it, i have been told i need an impedence management system? and also it may be due to the fact the speaker cable is different in length running from the amp to the various rooms? I havnt got a clue, hope someone can help?
Regards
420uk

You should have used an outfit that specializes on commercial installations. Whoever sold you that equipment does not have the first clue about commercial installations.

Your main problem is the QED switch which is designed to work the way it does. It provides good performance in one room and only low background in all the others, which is what you have found out.

The next problem is your amp is too small.

You have several options.

1). Place impedance matching volume controls in each room. If all rooms are playing it will not be particularly loud on any room. A good deal of your power will be wasted as heat in the controls.

The reason you have to do this is that if you connect all your speakers together the impedance will be so low you will blow your amp instantly.

2). Place transformers at the amp to convert to a professional 70 volt system. You would have to place transformers at each speaker. The watts taps to the speakers would have to add up to 50 watts, as your amp is 50 watts per channel. By using the taps you can set a different level to each room. However once it is set it is set, and can not be changed on the fly.

This system would not waste amp power and distribute the power efficiently throughout the system. The Sound quality will be degraded by the transformers.

3). What you should have had was either a professional PA amp installed in the first place, or better: -

4). A pro eight channel amp giving around 100 watts per channel, with remote digital key pads in each room to control the volume and even change sources remotely.

Unfortunately anyway you sort this out will require a significant investment. The first option would be the cheapest, but I doubt you will be happy with it.

The best option is the last and by far the most expensive.

 

[highfigh]

My first post, hope its in the right place..
Some time ago i bought a sound system to go in my pub, i explained to the sales guy from a well known and well established audio shop exactly what i needed, took the advice bought the kit and its never worked, i'm hopeing you guys may be able to shed some light or point me in the right direction to getting it sorted.
To give you an idea of the layout, the pub has 4 rooms and i needed all speakers set up to one cd player & amp, i connected all the kit as instructed but i get virtually no sound from the second, third & forth speaker sets.
The equipment i am using is:
Pioneer PD M426 CD Player
NAD C320BEE Amp
QED SS50 Transmatch 5 way speaker switch
I am only using connection on the switch A,B,C,D
The speakers connected to A are Jamo cornet 30 6 OHM (very loud)
The speakers connected to B,C,D are Jamo Compact 700 8 OHM (Virtually no sound)
I have tried replaceing the speakers on A to a spare pair of Jamo Compact 700 8 OHM but this makes the situation worse, as the volume becomes even louder on this connection and still doesnt improve the volume on the other 3 sets.
Its a total nighmare and i have no idea how to sort it, i have been told i need an impedence management system? and also it may be due to the fact the speaker cable is different in length running from the amp to the various rooms? I havnt got a clue, hope someone can help?
Regards
420uk

Never worked at all or the way you want it to? I would go back to the sales guy and ask how it's supposed to do what you need it to, or if he was just trying to have a good sales month, by selling you all of this stuff. For bars, restaurants and larger spaces, the best thing to do is go to someone who deals with them on a regular basis, not a stereo shop- most people there couldn't set up a complete system if they had a gun to their head.

Did you see "By using only the 4 'B' outputs you can safely connect up to 4 pairs of 4 Ohm speakers" in the manual for the speaker selector? It also has "The 'A' pair are switched directly for the highest quality".

The cable length makes no difference unless there's a tremendous difference. If one was 100' longer, it would be quieter but in most cases, it won't matter. If you have more than 4 pairs and you want them to all be the same volume, you should have gotten a selector that matches the impedance and has volume controls on it. The Niles SSVC6 does this and will handle 250W.

Since I assume you're in the UK, I don't know what brands and models of speaker selectors are available, I'll post a link to the Niles piece and if you see something similar, it should be fine for your use. The main caution I would offer is: If you will be playing the system at high volume levels, use a separate, reasonably-priced power amp for each room or one multi-channel amp with a level control for each channel.

Niles:
http://www.jr.com/niles-audio/pe/NIL_SSVC6/

If one pair is louder than another, it's often just a case of them just being louder than the others, not that a problem exists. The problem here is that the sales guy chose a speaker selector that wasn't right for the application. Go back to him and tell him that it can't work for what you want. If he balks or refuses to help, talk to the owner of the shop- I'm sure he would want to know that his sales people are selling the wrong parts for the application.

 

[highfigh]

Most manufacturers of 70V systems recommend not exceeding 80% of the amp's power rating when in use and in a system where the signal isn't going terribly far, 70V isn't really necessary. Also, I would keep any volume controls behind the bar or in a separate area that's not accessible to the public, since people like to mess with things that they have no business messing with.

I do agree that this amp, while a good one, is not enough power for this application. Many pro-sumer (just a blend of pro and consumer grade) amps are available and they aren't necessarily expensive. I put a Behringer A500 in a bar/restaurant and it's connected to 4 old Koss CM530 speakers. The speakers were in rough shape when I got involved, so I checked them out completely and put the good tweeters, woofers and passive radiators in the three cabinets that needed them, then found a woofer/tweeter combination that was a good match for speaker sensitivity. Although the tweeters are a lot better than the originals, the plan is to replace the speakers when it becomes practical from a $$ standpoint. They have one bartender who cranks the crap out of them and she hasn't been able to damage the amp or speakers. I had also installed an equalizer and since I rolled off most of the deep bass and she doesn't know how to adjust it, the woofers are still intact even though she likes to play Rap & Hip Hop. The weekend cleaning guy constantly complains about her leaving the volume at full (I have the network jukebox set up so it can't be at 100%- it's more like 60%, so it's loud enough but not so high that the speakers can be damaged).

This was a very reasonably priced upgrade and since the goal was for decent sound at higher levels, it works well. 99.999999% of bars and restaurant owners don't care about achieving the best sound quality- they want it to sound decent at the volume the crowds want. Also, the acoustics aren't good enough to warrant great equipment. The third thing that bar/restaurant owners sometimes want to know but don't say anything about is "Will I make more money if I put this system in?". Maybe, maybe not. If people like it and care, they may go there. If they don't care and like another place more, the "system" could be a clock radio, for all they care.

 

[TLS Guy]

Actually one of those Niles units does look like your best bet. This one would be sufficient for your four rooms.

Niles do have a UK agent, but whether they have this unit available I don't know.

The unit is a little pricey, but it will not waste much power as it uses expensive auto transformers instead of wasteful resistors.

 

[highfigh]

Jamo and other brands are available throughout Europe and they're basically the same, maybe with a different case and cosmetics.

 

[TLS Guy]

Jamo and other brands are available throughout Europe and they're basically the same, maybe with a different case and cosmetics.

Niles gear has only been available in Europe since 2006. I have looked at a number of UK sites and none seem to offer the speaker switches the OP needs, so he will have to contact the importer I listed. The importers web site is hopeless.

 

[highfigh]

Niles gear has only been available in Europe since 2006. I have looked at a number of UK sites and none seem to offer the speaker switches the OP needs, so he will have to contact the importer I listed. The importers web site is hopeless.

Niles isn't the only company that sells selector/volume controls with auto-formers, though. I need to correct the Jamo selector part number- it's JSS6-VC2 and they have a dealer locator on their site. They have four in London but all of the UK is covered.

 

[TLS Guy]

Niles isn't the only company that sells selector/volume controls with auto-formers, though. I need to correct the Jamo selector part number- it's JSS6-VC2 and they have a dealer locator on their site. They have four in London but all of the UK is covered.

I have found a dealer in the UK for that Jamo unit.

 

[Sammyuk]

No Chance !

Brutal but fair, thats my stance on this subject.

This poor guy should have gone back to the retailer and demanded his money back, on the basis as not fit for purpose, because quite simply it isn't and I am sure that if he dug further the manufacturers would have a disclaimer about using this type of equipment for Professional applications.

So in essence - he's been had !!

I have been in "Pro-Audio" for years and whilst all the posts above are good solid advice, and it's highly commendable that the wider community are genuinely trying to help him get up and running - I genuinely wish I had been on this forum at the time !!!

I can only speak from experience, and yes - you would be able to get the proposed system up and running, but it wouldn't be very reliable, and definatly not intuitive to operate, it would actually become detrimental to The business - not the asset - it was intended to be.

In the future if any of the forum members need advice regarding this type of system please please please PM me, it won't cost a penny, and it could save you a fortune in buying hardware, bodging it together, all the related time costs and the inevitable failure and loss of revenue to the business.

Whilst I understand the perceived reasoning for trying to use domestic product, It's badly flawed.

 

[highfigh]

I can only speak from experience, and yes - you would be able to get the proposed system up and running, but it wouldn't be very reliable, and definatly not intuitive to operate, it would actually become detrimental to The business - not the asset - it was intended to be.

In the future if any of the forum members need advice regarding this type of system please please please PM me, it won't cost a penny, and it could save you a fortune in buying hardware, bodging it together, all the related time costs and the inevitable failure and loss of revenue to the business.

Whilst I understand the perceived reasoning for trying to use domestic product, It's badly flawed.

What has been installed in pubs, restaurants and other commercial sites is incredibly varied and while not necessarily the best choices, many are still working after decades. It's not always mandatory that commercial equipment be installed but I agree that it's best to use gear that's made for the application and much of it is easier to use as a system than a cobbled-together bunch of different brands and models. The Jamo speakers running at low levels should be fine but as in all systems, how it's configured and installed can make all the difference in the world.

Unfortunately, many people are operating on a short budget when the time comes to select the AV equipment and that's where they end up flat on their face. That being the case, it's OK to start with training wheels and improve as business picks up. I know someone who owned a very successful bar/grill after his sons got in his ear about needing a better one than the jukebox (JB), he agreed to consider an upgrade. When presented a system by someone I worked with, his first question was "Will I make more money if I do this?". The equipment choices were ridiculous and definitely not made for that kind of use- Pioneer A6 integrated amps (one each for back, middle and front bars), Infinity RS-A speakers with ribbon tweeters, Pioneer cassette deck (it was the early '80s) and the jukebox was to be used as the default, taking the line level output from the record out of the integrated amp as the feed to the JB preamp and the JB could switch over when money was inserted). It would have been OK if this was a quiet lounge but the owner's youngest son liked to crank the crap out of it at the end of the night, which resulted in many blown tweeters and a lot of tap dancing on the part of the sales guy.

In contrast, we have a brew pub with a large outdoor area and after hearing the sound quality, I wandered around to see what they have- JBL Control 25 (might/might not have transformers- I didn't ask) and I didn't see a subwoofer anywhere. With decent amplification, I don't expect this system to need any upgrades/repairs for a long time and it reminds me of the type of system I would design.

The advice given was for using the existing equipment and parts, not to give the impression that it can be great, as is. However, you have a better idea of what's available across the pond and your perspective will be helpful.