Constraint Layer Damping(options)

lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I know peel-n-seal is popular, but I've not found it in local store here. I've seen the measurements of using standard 30# roofing felt and they are very impressive -20db. I'm thinking this will work well, but wondering if any folks here had tried it.

Also I've got no clue how I'd glue this.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Andrew can find Peal & Seal in your area. ;)

I can't imagine roofing felt being similar in any way and I'm pretty sure you caught Sean Olive's statements regarding bracing being the big bang for your buck solution for cabinets according to preference ratings so I'm a little confused as to why you'd want to do a constrained layer with felt which is neither viscous or elastic. :confused:
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
In vibration control for engineering, the rule of thumb for visco-elastic damping is to use a material of an order of magnitude lower modulus. So, if you look up the modulus of elasticity for the wood your using, you'd look for a material of rougly one order of magnitude less. MDF is like 580,000psi, and most regular woods are over 1,000,000psi ... so you can see what is best for MDF may not be as ideal for birch or something.

I could see someone saying bracing is probably the best bang for your buck, but also stiffness through geometry is good. Like gmichael's design will probably be much more inert than if he were to have made that a 'box' with the same amount of bracing.

Mass is also very good. It will lower frequency and shorten duration.

Also thickness... stiffness increases by a square with thickness. So if you make a panel double in thickness, it will be four times as stiff. (Not sure if anyone cares, but this is because of the area moment of inertia for geometry)

Hope that helps!
 
L

Loren42

Audioholic
I know peel-n-seal is popular, but I've not found it in local store here. I've seen the measurements of using standard 30# roofing felt and they are very impressive -20db. I'm thinking this will work well, but wondering if any folks here had tried it.

Also I've got no clue how I'd glue this.
Bracing is important, but the problem is one of energy, not stiffness. You must dissipate the energy into heat.

After much reading and study on the subject I have come to the delusion that a constrained layer and felt approach makes the most sense.

Green glue is the best stuff I can find. It is a special acoustic elastic goo that works magic. I have no idea where you live, but in the US it is available here.

Green glue never hardens, so building with it can be problematic. You can't make up raw boards, apply green glue, then cut them to size. You must cut each piece to size first.

The best approach would be to build the cabinet from the inside out. Build the cabinet like you normally would with internal bracing. The front baffle should not be constrained, but make it oversized by the thickness of the outer layer plus the thickness layer of the glue (about 1/16"+). I would make the front baffle at least 1.5" thick or more.

Cabinet walls can be two layers .5 to .75" thick each. For big cabinets with monster woofers you may even want to consider thicker yet.

Apply green glue using a caulking gun as per manufacture directions, then apply the outer cabinet layer.

You will need some small wooden shims all along the edges of each cabinet face to secure the outer panel and insure the panel is consistently spaced. Use brad nails to secure the outer panel, but only nail the outside board edges. Keep the center nail-free.

Continue with each side in turn until all five sides are done, nailing only at the edges. You should use wood glue where the outer shell's walls meet each other.

Some purists will try to make the inner cabinet float about the inner cabinet, but I don't think the extra effort is worth the aggravation. While you will be transmitting some vibration from the inner shell to the outer shell, the outer shell is still dampened by the inner elastic layer, so you really should not see much of a loss (if any measurable loos at all).

When the outer shell is completed there should not be any visible openings where you see the constrained layer. Seal any cracks or seams with epoxy or a hard glue.

On the inside walls of the cabinet staple two layers of 30# roofing felt. This step is cheap. Then treat the felt with Acousta-stuff or whatever dampening material you choose.

The system is really two systems in one. The stuffing reduces the internal wavefront and standing waves by absorbing the acoustic wave energy. The constrained layer dissipates the remaining acoustic energy and resonances that are coupled to the cabinet walls and bracing and turns that energy into heat.

When you are done with this you should have an extremely well damped cabinet.
 
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Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
... gmichael's design will probably be much more inert than if he were to have made that a 'box' ...
He stole that idea from a chicken !!! I'll never trust him again. :rolleyes:

Holy smokes, Sensi ... you sure sound smart. Did your parents make you eat special food to make you like that? :) Seriously, it sounded like the you said that the optimal visco-elastic material would be dependent on the type of wood used. I gotta read that again. :D
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Found it, but it's not cheap. I think I may give the roofing felt a go. Some construction adhesive I'm sure could bond it. I know there where cheaper rolls somewhere that Wmax linked though. I really must find that link again.:(

http://www.bicwarehouse.com/peel-and-seal-50g36.html

Bracing is dense red oak. Exterior will be plywood 3/4".
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Andrew can find Peal & Seal in your area. ;)

I can't imagine roofing felt being similar in any way and I'm pretty sure you caught Sean Olive's statements regarding bracing being the big bang for your buck solution for cabinets according to preference ratings so I'm a little confused as to why you'd want to do a constrained layer with felt which is neither viscous or elastic. :confused:
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Loudspeaker_construction.html#Panel_vibration_damping

showed it effective in his tests.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Found it, but it's not cheap.
The 6" wide 25' long rolls for ~$15 is what you want and sure as shootin', Andrew knows where to get it ... but you want felt ... to adhere that I would probably buy a gallon of contact cement and apply it with a roller like I was doing Formica work. Don't worry about stinkin' up the house because your wife is gonna divorce you over this hobby anyway. :D

You might buy Dickason's book and see what he says to do ... spend, spend, spend. :eek:
Your wife is probably talking to an attorney now. :p
 
S

skers_54

Full Audioholic
Found it, but it's not cheap. I think I may give the roofing felt a go. Some construction adhesive I'm sure could bond it. I know there where cheaper rolls somewhere that Wmax linked though. I really must find that link again.:(

http://www.bicwarehouse.com/peel-and-seal-50g36.html

Bracing is dense red oak. Exterior will be plywood 3/4".
I found mine at Lowe's. It was also ~$15 for a 6" by 25' roll.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_154017-81326-PS625_0_?productId=1018733&Ntt=peel&Ntk=i_products&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=peel

I just put in a random Dallas zip code. Should be available at one of the local Lowe's, otherwise the website says that they'll ship it.
 
L

Loren42

Audioholic
It would be interesting to see how effective this roof rubber is as an actual constrained layer element.

I suspect that the performance will be somewhat poor when compared to materials designed for the job.

On my todo list is building a driver test box that will have a removable back panel that I wanted to test a number of constrained layer configurations with my accelerometer. I guess I should add that roofing rubber to the list.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
The 6" wide 25' long rolls for ~$15 is what you want and sure as shootin', Andrew knows where to get it ... but you want felt ... to adhere that I would probably buy a gallon of contact cement and apply it with a roller like I was doing Formica work. Don't worry about stinkin' up the house because your wife is gonna divorce you over this hobby anyway. :D

You might buy Dickason's book and see what he says to do ... spend, spend, spend. :eek:
Your wife is probably talking to an attorney now. :p
I found mine at Lowe's. It was also ~$15 for a 6" by 25' roll.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_154017-81326-PS625_0_?productId=1018733&Ntt=peel&Ntk=i_products&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=peel

I just put in a random Dallas zip code. Should be available at one of the local Lowe's, otherwise the website says that they'll ship it.
This is the link I lost lol.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
On my todo list is building a driver test box that will have a removable back panel that I wanted to test a number of constrained layer configurations with my accelerometer. I guess I should add that roofing rubber to the list.
On my todo list is waiting for you to get going with your todo list. :)

When you do this please shoot me a PM to let me know. I would hate to miss it.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
On my todo list is waiting for you to get going with your todo list. :)

When you do this please shoot me a PM to let me know. I would hate to miss it.
Same.

Please PM me also with your results, I'm very interested!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It would be interesting to see how effective this roof rubber is as an actual constrained layer element.

I suspect that the performance will be somewhat poor when compared to materials designed for the job.

On my todo list is building a driver test box that will have a removable back panel that I wanted to test a number of constrained layer configurations with my accelerometer. I guess I should add that roofing rubber to the list.
Why do you have an accelerometer?
 
L

Loren42

Audioholic
Why do you have an accelerometer?
Okay, officer, I don't have a license for the accelerometer, I was just transporting it for a friend. :D

Actually, I want to measure the panel vibration directly and minimize the ambient room noise and sound from the driver.

I can also specify the exact point on the panel I want to perform the measurement.

Was that what you were looking for?
 
T

Ted White

Audioholic Intern
Small side note: Damping materials certainly stay gummy after drying, but when compressed the actual damping layer is quite thin. 0.5mm generally. The laminated boards can be cut with a circular saw or table saw, but some residue will build up. Remove with acetone.

I'm not recommending this process, but it may be less time consuming than cutting all pieces separately and then gluing / screwing.

If anyone decides to try this, the trick is to compress the two boards together with either temporary screws (removed after a couple weeks) or by walking on 4x8 sandwiches to compress the damping layer. In case the panels move differentially over that two week period, you should keep them still and weighed down
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
How do you guys adhere the aluminum side of peel-n-seal to the exterior wood?
 

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