DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Jed M]

You guys seem to be forgetting they got the Volta, the RSC 150, the RS 400, the RSS 500, the RS 600, the RSC 800, the RSC 900, the RS 950, the new subs (substantial and whatever), the LS-4's, the LS center all just literally weeks away from shipping. And then don't forget about the RSL-II...

 

[Chu Gai]

Too bad you can't stick a poll in the middle of the post

but what do you think is going on? Is MLS going to make one last stand and actually introduce a few new products in the very short term or has this been nothing more than a ruse designed to clear out what they have before closing shop and filing for bankruptcy?

 

[obie_fl]

Every day I log in and expect to see that AV123 have shut down the site and gone out of business. However they have proven to to be remarkably resilient.

Here is one possible senario:
The company limps along and actually releases a couple of new products, MLS is invisible but still pulling most of the strings behind the scene. They may manage to stay around a while but I could see a legal dissolution of the company and then the reappearance of a new company.
The Schifter's file for personal bankruptcy.
MLS is convicted but gets little to no prison time.
MLS opens that hot dog stand that he has always wanted and lives happily ever after.

 

[Stereodude]

However they have proven to to be remarkably resilient.

I think they've just been very good at controlling the view we all get of their operation. I think they're closer than they've ever been to folding.

 

[T2T]

You guys seem to be forgetting they got the Volta, the RSC 150, the RS 400, the RSS 500, the RS 600, the RSC 800, the RSC 900, the RS 950, the new subs (substantial and whatever), the LS-4's, the LS center all just literally weeks away from shipping. And then don't forget about the RSL-II...

[VaporWare]

Ahh ... the aroma.

[/VaporWare]

 

[its phillip]

well, i got those speakers i ordered last night and visually they are fine. i've not had the chance to hook em up yet and test em out.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6779/elt525m.png
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4126/elt525m2.png

i do believe that they are just clearing all the stock before declaring bankruptcy though.

 

[gonk]

I have no doubt those issues were the cause of huge financial burden.

I have some doubts about that. Defects in subwoofer amps certainly hurt them quite a bit financially (much more so than the X-Head and X-Amp miscues, which were limited in scope by the smaller demand they saw and thus the smaller cost of repair/replacement), but the underfunding started years before that (with tens of thousands of dollars apparently going missing as early as 2004 and 2005) and indications are that SAC was getting shorted significant sums of money starting around the same time.

I think they've just been very good at controlling the view we all get of their operation. I think they're closer than they've ever been to folding.

I agree. Trying to guess what's on their minds seems pretty difficult at this point, since they've done too many inexplicable things already, but even if they are able to magically re-invent the Rocket line with these "new cabinet" versions of a bunch of older Rockets they have to sell them. Having a forum under unofficial martial law and a reputation in the community as crooks and liars is going to make that an uphill battle - especially if they price them at a level that's profitable with US-made cabinets. There are lots of good speakers out there, after all.

 

[Chu Gai]

I wrote a song parody

It's sung to the tune of Wooly Bully. Hope you like it.

Bought an MFW with cracked veneer
I'm on my sixth amp now and it's only been a year.
Humbly Bumbly, Humbly Bumbly
Humbly Bumbly, Humbly Bumbly, Humbly Bumbly

Paid for some speakers and I've been waiting three years
I keep asking for my money, Shifty says it'll soon be here.

Humbly Bumbly, Humbly Bumbly
Humbly Bumbly, Humbly Bumbly, Humbly Bumbly

Bought some raffle tickets to help the kids
Now he's been indicted, and the kids got sh!t

Humbly Bumbly, Humbly Bumbly
Humbly Bumbly, Humbly Bumbly, Humbly Bumbly

 

[alphaiii]

I have some doubts about that. Defects in subwoofer amps certainly hurt them quite a bit financially (much more so than the X-Head and X-Amp miscues, which were limited in scope by the smaller demand they saw and thus the smaller cost of repair/replacement), but the underfunding started years before that (with tens of thousands of dollars apparently going missing as early as 2004 and 2005) and indications are that SAC was getting shorted significant sums of money starting around the same time.

gonk,
I actually agree with what you're saying. Seems I didn't convey that well enough in my post.

I did state, "Although given the track record, I can't say I think the "underfunding" wouldn't have happened if there weren't issues with the electronics, especially since it seems pretty clear the stealing started before the MFW, X-amp, X-Head even existed."

Maybe it would be more accurate to say that, in the financial situation at the time, the fiasco with electronics made a bad situation that much worse.

But I have no delusions that electronics issues are the cause of all of this. As I said, it's pretty clear from the raffles alone that this started long before the MFW15 and UFW10 amp failures.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Maybe there will be some postings on 123 about the amazing food he ate at brunch today? I'd go for seconds at the omelette bar.

 

[gonk]

But I have no delusions that electronics issues are the cause of all of this. As I said, it's pretty clear from the raffles alone that this started long before the MFW15 and UFW10 amp failures.

Very true. The consistent problems with quality control for electronics - whether from CrealM (sub amps and X electronics) or Jade Design (if we consider the older UFW/ULW10 amps) or even the Parts Express replacements for the UFW/ULW10's (functional enough but not equal to the original design) - are a significant symptom of larger underlying problems that the company has never seemed willing or able to effectively address. There is always a lot of talk from Mark and his company about quality that exceeds the price point, but there's also a history of repetitive quality problems that were atypical for any price point. A lack of expertise with QA policies may be part of the problem, but it may also have something to do with the history we've seen hints of regarding payment (or, more specifically, lack of payment) to vendors. No amount of know-how regarding good QA procedures will help if you're ripping off the vendor and they respond by holding back the good quality parts for paying customers. I doubt we'll ever know all the details of why the company has landed in its current position, but there seem to have been a lot of contributing problems.

 

[tesseract]

A lack of expertise with QA policies may be part of the problem, but it may also have something to do with the history we've seen hints of regarding payment (or, more specifically, lack of payment) to vendors.

Lack of QA policies indeed, I spoke to MLS about this and he didn't have a clue what I was talking about. FMEA, SPC trend tracking, Root Causes, Countermeasure implementation, etc. He was familiar with the term "Root Cause". He did state that he "liked my lingo".

Deming circle, anyone? http://www.ifm.eng.cam.ac.uk/dstools/process/pdca.html

No amount of know-how regarding good QA procedures will help if you're ripping off the vendor and they respond by holding back the good quality parts for paying customers. I doubt we'll ever know all the details of why the company has landed in its current position, but there seem to have been a lot of contributing problems.

I beg to differ. Good Quality Assurance will sample test purchased goods. Quality Control during the assembly process gives another opportunity to catch substandard parts.

 

[Chu Gai]

<snip>
I doubt we'll ever know all the details of why the company has landed in its current position, but there seem to have been a lot of contributing problems.

Because he's been an incompetent, cheap, backstabbing, welching, thieving, lying, whoring, vodka loving SOB who has been a contributory factor in every company's demise he's had a prominent role in and was aided by an equally incompetent press that did no fact checking so that the masses could be fed an Orwellian version of the facts.

 

[gonk]

He did state that he "liked my lingo".

Ha! I like that comment...

I beg to differ. Good Quality Assurance will sample test purchased goods and Quality Control during the assembly process would've revealed substandard parts.

It certainly would. But it wouldn't get them replaced with proper parts if the vendor had been beaten down to such a low price or was owed so much money that they were unwilling to correct the errors, and it wouldn't prevent them from shipping hardware that was confirmed to be substandard (like all the "bad batch" MFW15 amps that were shipped last year to replace failed amps).

 

[tesseract]

and it wouldn't prevent them from shipping hardware that was confirmed to be substandard (like all the "bad batch" MFW15 amps that were shipped last year to replace failed amps).

Agreed. The root cause of the MFW-15 amp failures wasn't known for quite a while. They kept shipping replacement after replacement, each one a ticking time bomb. They didn't fail until the end user had a few hours on them, generally.

 

[cschang]

My theory...

Word of how he was stringing Pu along made it to other vendors China, so other vendors were cautious and at first sign of him trying to screw them, they did the same.

Just my theory....maybe far off, maybe not.

 

[drab]

Because he's been an incompetent, cheap, backstabbing, welching, thieving, lying, whoring, vodka loving SOB who has been a contributory factor in every company's demise he's had a prominent role in and was aided by an equally incompetent press that did no fact checking so that the masses could be fed an Orwellian version of the facts.

Chu, I like YOUR lingo!

And I hear he didn't call his mother yesterday.

 

[Chu Gai]

His mother, Naomi Gerrato, passed away a few years ago in California and his step-father, Fred Gerrato, a couple of years later. As the story goes, filled with remorse, MLS did the only thing a kind and loving son and step-son could do. He borrowed money from Fred only to not repay it. The repayment though came due upon the settlement of the estate of which he, his sister, and step-sister, were beneficiaries, reducing his portion considerably. However,the sisters you see, had also lent him monies which were also not repaid. They were able to recoup their loan via MLS's share which still left him a healthy five figures. But not everyone who had loaned MLS money took a passive approach of wishing and hoping. Some sued successfully and when news of the estate came their way, the estate was served with a court ordered judgment, effectively wiping out his potential share.

One can only imagine what it's like when the family gets together to celebrate during the holidays.

 

[Stereodude]

I beg to differ. Good Quality Assurance will sample test purchased goods. Quality Control during the assembly process gives another opportunity to catch substandard parts.

C'mon now... Everyone know you just assume your vendors ship you parts that are within spec, slap 'em together, and assume the final product works as advertised without testing a thing.

 

[tesseract]

C'mon now... Everyone know you just assume your vendors ship you parts that are within spec, slap 'em together, and assume the final product works as advertised without testing a thing.

Yeah... that was their approach. QC/troubleshooting/rework is done by the customer. MUCH cheaper to do it this way...

I would love to be a fly on the wall at AV12Guilty during final assembly, I could use a good laugh.