Recommendations how to complement old speakers to complete 5.1 system

[Ginsu543]

I recently received a set of old speakers from my dad and I was wondering how to complement them to build a quality 5.1 (maybe 7.1) speaker system.

This is what I have:
2 x JBL L100T floor standing speakers
4 x Panasonic NS-10M bookshelf speakers

This is what I need (I'm assuming):
1 x center channel speaker
1 x subwoofer

What make and model of speakers would sound good with the speakers I've got without breaking the bank? Also, it it possible to use one of the NS-10M speakers as a center?

 

[JerryLove]

A single JBL L100T would be ideal as a center channel for you (assuming those are what you are using for your fronts).

Sub matching is pretty simple: just make sure the sub goes well up to the preferred crossover point.

 

[Ginsu543]

JerryLove, thanks for your reply.

Are you saying that I should get another JBL L100T floor standing speaker to use as a center channel? Isn't that kinda huge?

I'm a total newb as far as audio is concerned, so I didn't understand what you meant by a sub going "well up to the preferred crossover point." Could you please clarify?

 

[yepimonfire]

it is very important that the timbre of the center speaker matches the L/R speakers, so finding a center may be hard, which might be why he recommended the floor speaker. using a center that doesent match in timbre is just as bad as using two completely different Left and Right speakers.

 

[yepimonfire]

one thing you might be able to do is just phantom the center (in other words dont use a center) if you really dont want to use another floorstander (i know i wouldnt)

 

[JerryLove]

Are you saying that I should get another JBL L100T floor standing speaker to use as a center channel? Isn't that kinda huge?

Someone may know a modern center-channel that will match a JBL L100T. I do not, and I don't expect that someone else will (but perhaps).

One sure-fire way to match L/R to C, is to use a third of the same speaker... so yes, I was recommending that.

YIOF is also correct: you may get very favorable results from phantoming and running without an acual center. In some instances, this is actually better than L/C/R, and in others less, but it does nicely solve the "center matching" problem.

The great news on that is that the cost of trying is $0. So I'd see how phantoming works for you before persuing a center.

I'm a total newb as far as audio is concerned, so I didn't understand what you meant by a sub going "well up to the preferred crossover point." Could you please clarify?

Different speakers roll off at different X-over points...

Hrm. Let me see if I can simplify that.

You are buying a sub-woofer because your main speakers cannot do LF (low-frequencies) well. But how low is "LF"? That depends on your mains. I've got some old Sony bookshelves that have trouble below 120Hz, so I cross them over at 120Hz. I've got some custom speakers that are dead-flat to 35 Hz. If I was going to use a sub to augment them, I could cross over much lower (say 50Hz) if I wanted to.

Just as your mains don't work well below a certain frequency, a sub doesn't work well above a certain frequency.

So I have a Velodyne ULD-15. It crosses over at 80Hz. Period. It's not designed for a higher crossover. It would be a bad match with my Sony bookshelves, because they don't go down to an 80Hz crossover well. It would be fine with my custom speakers, because they go lower than 80Hz.

So based on your speakers (likely your surrounds, as I suspect you JBLs will work at the nigh-standard 80Hz), you will optimally cross-over at a given Frq. If that number is higher than 80Hz (like with my Sony BS and 120Hz), I'd check the subs I was considering to make sure they perform well at that Frq.

 

[yepimonfire]

those speakers LOOK authoritative, doesent mean they are though, but since they are older speakers, im going to take a stab at the idea that they should work well down to atleast 60hz, most floorstanding older speakers were built as full-range speakers before the whole idea of .1 came into being, i may be wrong though.

 

[JerryLove]

those speakers LOOK authoritative, doesent mean they are though, but since they are older speakers, im going to take a stab at the idea that they should work well down to atleast 60hz, most floorstanding older speakers were built as full-range speakers before the whole idea of .1 came into being, i may be wrong though.

I believe these are the specs.

Recommended Power Amplifier Range: 200 watts
• Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
• Woofer: 12" aquaplas
• Midrange Driver: 5" high polymer laminate
• Tweeter: 1" pure titanium dome
• Frequency Response: 35Hz - 32kHz
• Crossover Frequency(ies): 800Hz, 4.5kHz
• Sensitivity: 91dB (1 watt/1 meter)

 

[Ginsu543]

Thanks, guys, for all your input. I think I now understand what you mean by crossover. It just means that I have find a subwoofer whose highest frequency range overlaps my mains' lowest frequency range so that there is no gap in the sound I'll get. Assuming that the frequency response of the L100T is 35Hz - 35kHz, I need to get a subwoofer that covers at least 35Hz and below. Did I get that right?

I now also understand why JerryLove was recommending I get another L100T: it is the only surefire way of matching the timber of the center speaker to the L100Ts I already have. Is there anyway of figuring out which if any modern speakers will match my L100Ts? Is it just a matter of trial-and-error? Hopefully, there is someone who, by experiment or by chance, know of a speaker that matches. Otherwise, I'll try out the phantoming idea.

Thanks very much for all your suggestions, and hopefully some others can also help me out.

 

[Ginsu543]

Another question, if I may. What do you guys think of my buying another Yamaha NS-10M speaker and using it as a center channel along with the other four that I have to make a matched 5.1 set (without the L100Ts, which I can use as stereo speakers elsewhere)?

Of course, I would still need to get a matching subwoofer, but I was thinking of maybe getting a Yamaha YST-SW315 (or something comparable).

 

[JerryLove]

I looked up your Yammy's (http://www.ns-10.net/category/specifications/)

Their bottom is 60Hz. That's a bit high and someone else can be more precise over where the crossover is likely to be best set, but is sounds like 80-100Hz to me (remember that "crossover point" is actually the mid-point in what should be called "crossover ranget").

Yes, getting a fifth and running the entire rig with ns-10's and a sub should (assuming you like the sound of the ns-10) be a great option for you. You still may want to try with a phantomed center before you spend money on another speaker (your need for a sub with this setup is pretty clear though).

Another suggestion (assuming that you do decide you need a center). Borrow the Ns-10s you want to put in the rear (you can put the JBL back there temorarily) and find out if you do or do not like the overall sound. Some people have found these fatiguing over time (but certtainly not all).

So my advice: buy the sub you like and test out some options with your existing gear. Then expand accordingly and if neccessairy.

Have you considered 7.1?

 

[yepimonfire]

Thanks, guys, for all your input. I think I now understand what you mean by crossover. It just means that I have find a subwoofer whose highest frequency range overlaps my mains' lowest frequency range so that there is no gap in the sound I'll get. Assuming that the frequency response of the L100T is 35Hz - 35kHz, I need to get a subwoofer that covers at least 35Hz and below. Did I get that right?

I now also understand why JerryLove was recommending I get another L100T: it is the only surefire way of matching the timber of the center speaker to the L100Ts I already have. Is there anyway of figuring out which if any modern speakers will match my L100Ts? Is it just a matter of trial-and-error? Hopefully, there is someone who, by experiment or by chance, know of a speaker that matches. Otherwise, I'll try out the phantoming idea.

Thanks very much for all your suggestions, and hopefully some others can also help me out.

not entirley, 35hz is actually a pretty low output for a floor speaker, you need to find a sub that can go ABOVE 35hz, which all of them can. your not going to find a sub with an extension lower then 30hz unless your willing to shell out alot of money.

 

[Ginsu543]

Again, thanks JerryLove for your advice. Well, the first thing I thought about was 7.1, which means getting a center and a sub, but two factors kinda made me think about a 5.1 instead. First, I thought it would be easier just to get another NS-10M than to find a center whose timbre matches my L100Ts. Second, the room I'm planning to use this setup in is not that big, and the L100Ts may be overkill.

I'll definitely take your advice and try out my NS-10Ms as L/C/R to see if I like them. If I do, then I'll start out with 5.1 and expand later.

Do you think the sub I'm thinking about, the Yamaha YST-SW315, will have the right crossover point for my NS-10Ms?

Your help is much appreciated.

 

[Ginsu543]

Yepimonfire, thanks for the explanation. So the key is to have good *overlap* between the speaker and the sub, yes?

 

[yepimonfire]

I looked up your Yammy's (http://www.ns-10.net/category/specifications/)

Their bottom is 60Hz. That's a bit high and someone else can be more precise over where the crossover is likely to be best set, but is sounds like 80-100Hz to me (remember that "crossover point" is actually the mid-point in what should be called "crossover ranget").

Yes, getting a fifth and running the entire rig with ns-10's and a sub should (assuming you like the sound of the ns-10) be a great option for you. You still may want to try with a phantomed center before you spend money on another speaker (your need for a sub with this setup is pretty clear though).

Another suggestion (assuming that you do decide you need a center). Borrow the Ns-10s you want to put in the rear (you can put the JBL back there temorarily) and find out if you do or do not like the overall sound. Some people have found these fatiguing over time (but certtainly not all).

So my advice: buy the sub you like and test out some options with your existing gear. Then expand accordingly and if neccessairy.

Have you considered 7.1?

i always recommend and find it sounds better if you cross even you huge bass capable speakers over at 80hz, reason being is this does a good job at seperating octaves, frequencies below 80hz are considered the "sub bass" octave. everything above it is mid-bass, then mid-range which begins at 300-500hz, and then treble which begins at about 3khz. speaker crossovers (3-ways)usually have the mid-range, treble, and bass seperated, by crossing speakers over at 80hz, you get a seperate mid-bass and sub-bass octave, and well, most passive speakers dont do very good with sub-bass. this is only my personal preference, i suggest you play with the crossover settings to figure out which you like first.

 

[yepimonfire]

Yepimonfire, thanks for the explanation. So the key is to have good *overlap* between the speaker and the sub, yes?

yea, basically if you have a small pair of bookshelfs with a lowest response of 100hz and your subwoofer is only good up to 80hz, you have a 20hz gap and any note played in that gap you wont even hear it.

 

[JerryLove]

not entirley, 35hz is actually a pretty low output for a floor speaker, you need to find a sub that can go ABOVE 35hz, which all of them can. your not going to find a sub with an extension lower then 30hz unless your willing to shell out alot of money.

If his sub cannot go below his floor-standers: there's no reason to get a sub.

Do you think the sub I'm thinking about, the Yamaha YST-SW315, will have the right crossover point for my NS-10Ms?

I'd prefer to see the FR chart, but I think you'll be fine. It's listed FR is 20-160, but that's +/- 10db (in all likelyhood, it's only the extremes of that which are not +/- 3).

Still: Sub is definately one of the places worth spending some money if you are movie watching. WmAx has made some recommendations for the Dayton subs, including how to modify some of them easily to improve performance.

 

[j_garcia]

Yamaha's subs aren't that great for the money. I know; I've owned one. When it comes to recommending subs, Yamaha (like Polk), would not be the first names that came up.

There's a smoking deal for that 10" 550w Jamo sub at Vanns (see deals section). It says 26Hz (presumably -3dB) which isn't great, but it isn't about as good as one could expect at $200 shipped.

 

[yepimonfire]

If his sub cannot go below his floor-standers: there's no reason to get a sub.

I'd prefer to see the FR chart, but I think you'll be fine. It's listed FR is 20-160, but that's +/- 10db (in all likelyhood, it's only the extremes of that which are not +/- 3).

Still: Sub is definately one of the places worth spending some money if you are movie watching. WmAx has made some recommendations for the Dayton subs, including how to modify some of them easily to improve performance.

that yamaha sub is no good.

 

[JerryLove]

that yamaha sub is no good.

I assume you mean the Yammy and not the Dayton.

I've no experience with it, but Yamaha is not known for its subs.

Were I to spend $200 on a sub: I'd likely be hunting Carigslist for a used Velodyne.