Power Conditioner Recommendations

[jliedeka]

I would also point out that there's no free lunch. If a transformer converts 80 volts to 120 volts, it uses a bunch of current to do that. That means less current for available for amplification.

I guess where some of this stuff can be useful is for poorly designed amps. You may find examples in budget DIY kits and expensive audiophool amps. You know the ones that try to use the fewest components for a "purer" sound. These types of components may benefit from cleaner power and shielded power cables.

Pro audio gear often benefits from using a Furman or similar because the gear needs to work more or less the same way in a huge variety of environments.

Jim

 

[westom]

I would also point out that there's no free lunch. If a transformer converts 80 volts to 120 volts, it uses a bunch of current to do that. That means less current for available for amplification.

Amplifiers no longer use 120 volt transformers.

If more than sufficent current did not exist, then voltage would not remain at 80 volts. If 120 volts drops to 80 volts, then an amp's power supply draws more current to compensate for less voltage. Why is more than enough current available? Because 80 volts does not drop farther. A power supply provides all the power that an amp requires. Or it shuts down. Anything the Furman might do is already performed inside an amp's power supply where it can be done better and for much less money.

 

[njedpx3]

Install one 'whole house' protector so that everything is protected. Or a plug-in protector (for tens or 100 times more money) to have virtually no protection. A plug-in protector that sometimes contributes to computer damage. That simple.

Also is scary. A problem seen by most fire departments. A problem only with protectors designed to maximize profits. Not designed (nor claim) to provide protection:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

See those scary pictures? It is that simple. A choice that you make even by doing nothing. Avert that threat by installing only one 'whole house' protector for about $1 per protected appliance.

Isn't this what TLS already recommended in post #4 ?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=707055&postcount=4

Peace and Good Power,

Forest Man

 

[highfigh]

I would also point out that there's no free lunch. If a transformer converts 80 volts to 120 volts, it uses a bunch of current to do that. That means less current for available for amplification.

I guess where some of this stuff can be useful is for poorly designed amps. You may find examples in budget DIY kits and expensive audiophool amps. You know the ones that try to use the fewest components for a "purer" sound. These types of components may benefit from cleaner power and shielded power cables.

Pro audio gear often benefits from using a Furman or similar because the gear needs to work more or less the same way in a huge variety of environments.

Jim

I would think that if a conditioner can supply 120VAC from an input range that goes from 80VAC to 140VAC, it rectifies to DC and then passes it through a regulator. A transformer that steps the voltage up from 80 to 120V doesn't get that hot. Tube amps often have 450VAC at the secondary and they don't get particularly hot.

 

[jasper08]

Last week, there is a thunderstorm at my area. The lightning has cause me a cordless phone, a subwoofer and power gate. Luckily, my ht component like yammy 1800,power amp. lcd tv, bdp, projector and etc wasn't affected by it. The hifi shopowner where I send the subwoofer for repair recommend me to get Powertrans power regulator which cost around 3 to 6 grands. Does it help to protect my ht component from lightning strike? Is there anyway to protect my ht gears from it?

 

[TLS Guy]

Last week, there is a thunderstorm at my area. The lightning has cause me a cordless phone, a subwoofer and power gate. Luckily, my ht component like yammy 1800,power amp. lcd tv, bdp, projector and etc wasn't affected by it. The hifi shopowner where I send the subwoofer for repair recommend me to get Powertrans power regulator which cost around 3 to 6 grands. Does it help to protect my ht component from lightning strike? Is there anyway to protect my ht gears from it?

Your dealer is a snake oil salesman. As pointed out in this thread, you need a whole house surge protector, and your equipment protected by a smart UPS. APC Smart UPS devices are strongly recommended. This gear would have payed for itself already if you had had installed.

 

[westom]

... recommend me to get Powertrans power regulator which cost around 3 to 6 grands. Does it help to protect my ht component from lightning strike? Is there anyway to protect my ht gears from it?

How does its 2 cm parts stop something that could not be stopped by three miles of sky? At what point does that question get everyone's attention?

Either a protector makes a short (ie 'less then 3 meter') connection to earth. Or it is a profit center. At what point does that simple rule get everyone's attention?

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A surge inside the building will hunt for earth destructively via appliances no matter how expensive the protector. Either that energy is absorbed harmlessly in earth. Or it is inside seeking appliances to destroy. Only you make that choice by asking damning questions such as, "How does its 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not?" Effective protection was always that simple even 100 years ago. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[JerryLove]

How does its 2 cm parts stop something that could not be stopped by three miles of sky? At what point does that question get everyone's attention?

Because it's a stupid and misleading question.

Unplugging my DVD player effecively protects it from any lightning that doesn't come in through the window and strike it. Yes, even if I place it next to a power socket.

I suppose a similar question would be "how can something less than three meters stop something that wasn't stopped by three miles of sky". Let's see your position on that question.

Either a protector makes a short (ie 'less then 3 meter') connection to earth. Or it is a profit center. At what point does that simple rule get everyone's attention?

Oops. Kinda makes you look silly.

So lightning rods, which are longer than 3m don't work. Yet you recommend them.

 

[JerryLove]

Last week, there is a thunderstorm at my area. The lightning has cause me a cordless phone, a subwoofer and power gate. Luckily, my ht component like yammy 1800,power amp. lcd tv, bdp, projector and etc wasn't affected by it. The hifi shopowner where I send the subwoofer for repair recommend me to get Powertrans power regulator which cost around 3 to 6 grands. Does it help to protect my ht component from lightning strike? Is there anyway to protect my ht gears from it?

Nah. Whole-house lightning protection can be had far less expensively than that. You may want to start with your local power company as many offer to install them and take payments through your power bill.

Just remember to check the alternate routes in. I've lost equipment to lightning striking Cat5 cable and coming in through a phone or network line before.

I'm running APC UPS's on my PCs and main AV gear; for a mixture of surge redirection and continuity (sudden power failures on PCs, indeed even dips, can adversely effect equipment: particualrly in terms of corrupting data being written to a HDD, on projectors the loss of the fan can cause the bulb to burn out even though it too has lost power).

 

[30PlusRetlaw]

http://www.google.com/products?q=power+conditioners&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&scoring=p&show=dd&sa=N&start=0

There are furman power conditioners fo $35 bucks. But many people recomend to buy a non MOV kind.

 

[30PlusRetlaw]

I seen this recomended often for the whole house.

http://surgex.com/pdf/XN120-LR.pdf

 

[JerryLove]

There are furman power conditioners fo $35 bucks. But many people recomend to buy a non MOV kind.

The only problem I am aware of with MOV supressors is that so many of them fail "closed".

That is to say that the MOV itself fails, but the supressor keeps conducting power. Ones that fail "open" should be effective.

 

[westom]

Ones that fail "open" should be effective.

Wrong for two reasons. First, no protector fails "open". The protector circuit disconnects as fast as possible (to eliminate a fire threat). And leave the appliance confronting that surge. First reason why no such protector works.

Second, an example of a protector that stops or blocks a surge is a fuse. View numbers on any fuse. A voltage is listed. If the voltage exceeds that number, then the blown fuse keeps conducting. What does a surge do when blocked? Increases voltage as necessary to blow through any blockage. Second reason why a failed "open" protector is not effective.

Does the dam stop a flood? Of course not. Flood waters rise as necessary to blow through or over that dam. If the dam is moved (becomes a dike), then flood protection is the larger channel downstream. The dike can only supplement protection.

Same applies to protectors. Any protector that works like a dam (that "opens") is a scam. A protector operating as a dike can supplement protection. But protection is always about giving surges even larger (more conductive) paths that flow away from appliances. And so we have the bottom line - a reality that cannot be ignored no matter why plug-in protector myths claim. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - a larger channel downstream.

Furthermore (third reason), any protector that protects by "opening" is too slow. For example, a fuse (a fastest device) takes milliseconds to "open". Surges are done in microseconds - 1000 times faster. Another example of how myths get exposed once numbers arrive.

 

[highfigh]

Wrong for two reasons. First, no protector fails "open". The protector circuit disconnects as fast as possible (to eliminate a fire threat). And leave the appliance confronting that surge. First reason why no such protector works.

Second, an example of a protector that stops or blocks a surge is a fuse. View numbers on any fuse. A voltage is listed. If the voltage exceeds that number, then the blown fuse keeps conducting. What does a surge do when blocked? Increases voltage as necessary to blow through any blockage. Second reason why a failed "open" protector is not effective.

Does the dam stop a flood? Of course not. Flood waters rise as necessary to blow through or over that dam. If the dam is moved (becomes a dike), then flood protection is the larger channel downstream. The dike can only supplement protection.

Same applies to protectors. Any protector that works like a dam (that "opens") is a scam. A protector operating as a dike can supplement protection. But protection is always about giving surges even larger (more conductive) paths that flow away from appliances. And so we have the bottom line - a reality that cannot be ignored no matter why plug-in protector myths claim. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - a larger channel downstream.

Furthermore (third reason), any protector that protects by "opening" is too slow. For example, a fuse (a fastest device) takes milliseconds to "open". Surges are done in microseconds - 1000 times faster. Another example of how myths get exposed once numbers arrive.

Last time I checked, fuses also had a current rating and if that's exceeded, it fails, OPEN. Granted, if the voltage is above the limit that keeps it from arcing, it will still pass but if not, the voltage stops.

 

[westom]

Last time I checked, fuses also had a current rating and if that's exceeded, it fails, OPEN.

Only opens if that excessive current exists for a sufficiently long time. A fastest fuse is milliseconds. Sometimes that same fuse can take minutes to trip. All depends upon the numbers. Same numbers that also say why even the fastest fuse (or other "opening' devices) cannot stop a surge. Any claims without the ‘always required’ numbers is junk science reasoning.

Surges are not stopped by something that "opens".

 

[highfigh]

Only opens if that excessive current exists for a sufficiently long time. A fastest fuse is milliseconds. Sometimes that same fuse can take minutes to trip. All depends upon the numbers. Same numbers that also say why even the fastest fuse (or other "opening' devices) cannot stop a surge. Any claims without the ‘always required’ numbers is junk science reasoning.

Surges are not stopped by something that "opens".

Specifically, what kind of fuses are you referring to? If it takes minutes for a fuse to blow, the ratings aren't being exceeded by a large margin. Also, fuses aren't made to stop general surges, they're made to keep excessive current from burning the place down and kill the occupants, caused by a short circuit of some kind.

If anyone thinks a fuse or MOV is a good way to keep lightning from killing a bunch of equipment/people, they need to look into the physics behind the situation and marketing departments need to stop making people think that their product will protect against ALL high voltage surges when they're only able to deal with typical incidents. There's no way I would ever guarantee that my product that's located well away from the panel and it's earth ground when lightning strikes. I golfed at Black Wolf Run last Saturday and many of their trees have lightning suppression/diversion cabling because they're so integral to the courses' design.

 

[jneutron]

You do realize that you are arguing with one who has no knowledge??

Ask him about maxim chips which can survive 15kV transients...

Once you realize...you will laugh..

Cheers, John

 

[westom]

Specifically, what kind of fuses are you referring to? If it takes minutes for a fuse to blow, the ratings aren't being exceeded by a large margin. Also, fuses aren't made to stop general surges, they're made to keep excessive current from burning the place down and kill the occupants, caused by a short circuit of some kind.

If anyone thinks a fuse or MOV is a good way to keep lightning from killing a bunch of equipment/people, they need to look into the physics behind the situation and marketing departments need to stop making people think that their product will protect against ALL high voltage surges when they're only able to deal with typical incidents. There's no way I would ever guarantee that my product that's located well away from the panel and it's earth ground when lightning strikes. I golfed at Black Wolf Run last Saturday and many of their trees have lightning suppression/diversion cabling because they're so integral to the courses' design.

Correctly noted: fuses are for human safety. To disconnect power after a failure has occurred so that humans are not harmed. But a fuse is one of the fastest 'disconnecting' devices. And even it is too slow to 'open' - to stop a surge. Anything that "opens" to provide surge protection is better described as a scam.

Meanwhile, a 12 amp current does not (necessarily) blow a ten amp fuse. Whereas myths base in feelings say so; reality is different.

Fuses operate according a famous "I squared T" rule. For example, 1.5 amps through a one amp fastest blowing fuse may take 45 seconds. Same fuse may blow after 3 amps for 2 seconds or 6 amps for 100 milliseconds. That same 1 amp fuse might even conduct 2 amps for many minutes.

So we derate fuses. For example, a 7.5 amp device should have a much larger fuse - maybe 10 or more amps. Otherwise that fuse might blow after 2 hours. How fuses really work is not well understood by those who know simply based in speculation and assumptions.

Fuse is simply mentioned because it is among the fastest of "opening" devices. Demonstrates why such devices do not make effective surge protectors.

And why posters such as jneutron (due to insufficient knowledge and because he was previously exposed outright lying) will then post only insults.

MOVs, when properly implemented in a protection system, means even direct lightning strikes are harmlessly dissipated in earth. But that means designing MOVs into systems as intended by their manufacturer. Which is not what is exists in protectors adjacent to appliances.

 

[JerryLove]

Wrong for two reasons. First, no protector fails "open". The protector circuit disconnects as fast as possible (to eliminate a fire threat). And leave the appliance confronting that surge. First reason why no such protector works.

As long as the thermal fuse fails faster than the MOV then it's a non-issue.

And since *all* protection works the same way...

Second, an example of a protector that stops or blocks a surge is a fuse. View numbers on any fuse. A voltage is listed. If the voltage exceeds that number, then the blown fuse keeps conducting. What does a surge do when blocked? Increases voltage as necessary to blow through any blockage. Second reason why a failed "open" protector is not effective.

If you are vacuum arcing at the point of your fuse you are doomed.

Of course, if you are vacuum arching, then the surge can leap across the room to effect equipment not plugged in too.

Vacuum arcing pretty much never occurs in real-people use.

Does the dam stop a flood? Of course not. Flood waters rise as necessary to blow through or over that dam. If the dam is moved (becomes a dike), then flood protection is the larger channel downstream. The dike can only supplement protection.

Does moving your house out of the path of the flood stop it from getting swamped? Yes it does... much like disconnecting your equipment (which is what an open circuit does) stops it from being the recepient of said "flood".

And Dams stop floods all the time. In fact: the original purpose of dams is to control flooding. You seem to know as little about dams as you do about electricity.

How many useless analogies would you like to make?

When we are done with analogies, perhaps we can ask the actual question. Does disconnecting your equipment from power prevent surges on that power from affecting your equipment? Of course it does.

Same applies to protectors. Any protector that works like a dam (that "opens") is a scam. A protector operating as a dike can supplement protection. But protection is always about giving surges even larger (more conductive) paths that flow away from appliances.

That's stupid. It says "unplugging your equipment doesn't protect it from surges" when of course, it does.

And of course you need a better path for the power to go down. The MOV does tha by providing a low-resistance bypass. The fuse does that by making the path that involved vacuum arcing so unappealing that the ground from mains is better.

MOVs, when properly implemented in a protection system, means even direct lightning strikes are harmlessly dissipated in earth. But that means designing MOVs into systems as intended by their manufacturer. Which is not what is exists in protectors adjacent to appliances.

Odd. I can quote lots of your posts saying that the only thing that works is what was being done "for hundreds of years"... but I'm pretty sure that the MOV is less than two centuries old.

 

[westom]

As long as the thermal fuse fails faster than the MOV then it's a non-issue.

If a thermal fuse fails faster than the MOV, then a house fire does not result. Meanwhile the surge remains confronting appliances. No problem. We have saved the MOV!

That is not effective protection. An effective protector leaves the MOV connected even during a direct lightning strike. Then nobody even knew a surge existed. Even the protector is not damaged. Anything less is ineffective protection. Protector failure - ie that open thermal fuse - gets the naive to recommend ineffective 'profit centers'.

Any protector that protects by "opening" is promoting a scam. Even early 20th Century Ham radio operators would disconnect their antenna - and still suffer damage. Even place the antenna lead inside a mason jar - and still suffer damage. Damage stopped when the antenna was earthed. Nothing new.

Only scam artists promote protectors that magically stop surges - like dams to stop floods. Both are myths. Reality does not change because you dislike analogies. The analogy was for others who want to learn. If you are promoting anything that protects from surges by opening, then you are promoting a scam.

MOV does provide a conductive bypass. And does nothing if nothing exists to bypass energy into. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Always. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Therefore every high reliability facility uses protectors that do not open. Locates MOVs (or other devices) as close to earth as possible. Even the US Air Force demands that:
> 15. Surge Protection.
> 15.1. Entering or exiting metallic power, intrusion detection, communication antenna, and instrumentation
> lines must have surge protection sized for lightning surges to reduce transient voltages to a harmless
> level. Install the surge protection as soon as practical where the conductor enters the interior of the
> facility. Devices commonly used for this include metal oxide varistors, gas tube arresters, and
> transzorbs.

If you are going to quote me, you should first grasp what was posted. I never said (or even implied) MOV existed for over 100 years. If you understood the technology, then it was obvious I never said that. Solution to surge protection even 100 years ago used devices that do what MOVs (and other devices listed by the Air Force) do today. The science is that well proven even that long ago. Well proven solution violated by any device that works by "opening".

Back then, nobody wasted money on magic plug-in solutions. Operators did not remove headsets and leave the room when thunderstorms approached. Protection even from direct lightning strikes was routine even that long ago. Now that so many are educated by retail propaganda, then few understand how protection works. So many advocate retail scams - such as devices that work by "opening" (actually called failing).

Protection was always about where energy dissipates. Either energy was harmlessly absorbed in earth. Or energy was destructively inside the building. Rather than waste energy unplugging, the informed simply earthed a 'whole house' protector. Even that long ago, well understood: a protector was only as effective as its earth ground. And remained functional even after a direct lightning strike.

Yes, fuses and other "opening" devices existed back then. Even back then, such devices did not provide effective protection.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground no matter how many believe junk science promoted by retail propaganda.

A perfect analogy is the flood and dam. Any protector that works by opening is nothing more than a poorly constructed dam trying to stop a flood.