Baby Survives Abortion in Italy and Left to Die

[rnatalli]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/29/italy.botched.abortion/index.html

I'm pro-choice, but feel 20 weeks is too late for an abortion unless the mother's health is at risk; we're talking half way through a pregnancy. This story is chilling to say the least and literally makes me want to cry. I can't believe my country which has the 2nd best healthcare in the world and the Vatican would allow such a tragedy. How the doctors didn't notice the newborn was breathing is beyond me I really hope the brain hadn't developed to the point of perceiving pain in this poor child. I'll be curious to know if the mother's health was at risk or if she simply made a decision.

 

[gmichael]

I think I'm going to be sick.

 

[jamie2112]

AAAAARRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH I cant even read the story its freakin heartbreaking to hear this .......damn thats totally F***** up....

 

[rnatalli]

I remember reading about a case here in the States where a woman had a late-term abortion, but the baby survived. She sued the hospital and won. I don't recall where or with who the child ended up.

 

[itschris]

You know what I find odd... they find a substance on Mars that they litterally refer to as pond scum and are rejoicing at "life on Mars." Yet an embryo, let alone a 20 week old baby... yes I said baby... is not considered life and it essentially thought of as a piece of meat to be sucked out of another human being. I don't get it. I just don't.

I know there will always be 45% of the people who say abortion is wrong no matter what, another 45% who say it's a woman's body and she should have the right to do whatever she pleases despite her choices and what's going on insider her, and there's the remaining 10% who think there are certain situations where it may be justified... maybe. You can debate it all day long until you're blue in the face and probably never change an opinon on any side. However, I think we can all agree that what happened in this story is an abomination. That pretty much just wrecked an otherwise decent day for me. I literally had tears in my eyes.

 

[highfigh]

People disgust me, in may ways. I don't read articles like this one.

And many call any non-human a 'dumb animal'. Go figure.

I wonder what the rest of the animal kingdom calls us.

 

[lsiberian]

Sad. I hope someday we get smart enough to avoid the need for this procedure. Also, I think it should be illegal to terminate babies based on birth defects. Imagine if the brilliant people with disabilities had been killed.

People with disabilities have a remarkable contribution in our society.

 

[Gizmologist]

My take

From an old but effective bumper sticker. "Pro choice BEFORE conception, Pro LIFE after."

Also why do we applaud when a surgeon miraculously and successfully operates on the malformed heart of a baby halfway through gestation and not even fully removed from the mother's womb and yet in another case where the woman merely doesn't want to be bothered with a baby, the baby is now referred objectively as a "fetus", a "non human cell blob", "tissue mass" etc with no human right to exist?

The movie "Silent Scream" accurately documents the abortion process and the FACT that the baby DOES react to the insertion of instruments of torture and death in an attempt to kill it.

If you don't want the responsibility of a baby keep your damn legs closed use a condom or some other form of contraceptive so the BABY (little human) never even begins a life. THAT is the choice.

Women rightfully want equal rights or in some case exceptional treatments not afforded to males. Along with that goes the realization that like it or not, nature has built your body to perform a function of procreation and that carries responsibilities you must accept.

 

[adwilk]

If you don't want the responsibility of a baby keep your damn legs closed use a condom or some other form of contraceptive so the BABY (little human) never even begins a life. THAT is the choice.

Women rightfully want equal rights or in some case exceptional treatments not afforded to males. Along with that goes the realization that like it or not, nature has built your body to perform a function of procreation and that carries responsibilities you must accept.

You are indeed correct IMO, but you left the consequences for sexual assault out of your case. This is a tough tough area for me. I guess I'm kind of in that 10% that was mentioned earlier.

This doesn't need to become a topic regarding pro-life/pro-choice debate. The fact is that little guy took a breath on his own, and the irresponsibility of those involved is sickening.

 

[skers_54]

This is absolutely atrocious and disgusts me as a future medical professional. This procedure was performed VERY close to viability. Depends on how developed the lungs were, but signs point to them being far enough along to allow survival with appropriate care. If this happened in the States, the doc would probably be looking at jail time.

Fortunately, the baby probably wouldn't have been able to feel pain in the way we experience it. Its perception is broken up across several areas which would be immature at this stage. The baby would react to pain but those responses are mostly reflexive. The emotional response to pain (the "ow this hurts and now I feel bad" part) would be absent since the higher cortical areas responsible are underdeveloped. It doesn't really matter, but at least the baby didn't suffer.

 

[Gizmologist]

"Fortunately, the baby probably wouldn't have been able to feel pain in the way we experience it. Its perception is broken up across several areas which would be immature at this stage. The baby would react to pain but those responses are mostly reflexive. The emotional response to pain (the "ow this hurts and now I feel bad" part) would be absent since the higher cortical areas responsible are underdeveloped. It doesn't really matter, but at least the baby didn't suffer.

Unfortunately, We don't know for sure. Assuming the baby did not fear or feel the instruments is totally beyond our knowledge. It is only supposition.

In any event it is enough to make a grown man cry even to think about it.

 

[Chu Gai]

I realize the following video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejm9KjnMHV4 is looking to advocate for a particular position, but at about 2:55 we move to the 20th week of the fetus which is when the one in the article was aborted and then left to die later.

 

[skers_54]

"Fortunately, the baby probably wouldn't have been able to feel pain in the way we experience it. Its perception is broken up across several areas which would be immature at this stage. The baby would react to pain but those responses are mostly reflexive. The emotional response to pain (the "ow this hurts and now I feel bad" part) would be absent since the higher cortical areas responsible are underdeveloped. It doesn't really matter, but at least the baby didn't suffer.

Unfortunately, We don't know for sure. Assuming the baby did not fear or feel the instruments is totally beyond our knowledge. It is only supposition.

In any event it is enough to make a grown man cry even to think about it.

Well, it's a little beyond supposition. I can get into the nitty-gritty (got a test on this very subject tomorrow) but it's not exciting. Fear and suffering (which is an emotional response to pain) are higher cortical functions that requires a complex circuit for registration. Even then, connections between the cortex and peripheral senses don't develop until ~30 weeks.

As an aside, there appears to be a shortage of docs willing to do abortions in the US. We had a lecturer lament at the difficulty of finding a doctor willing to perform abortions in my area. She was discussing them in the context of protecting the mother, but it's still applicable.

Droht, you're talking about conditions that are politely termed "incompatible with life." In these cases, viability is never achieved so abortions are allowed at any stage. Often they are classified as protective of the mother since there are some processes that go astray increasing the possibility of negative outcomes. On the same token, the list of inviable conditions is shrinking so these types of decisions are actually legally left to a judgement call by the doctor.

 

[ArthurPE]

horrible...evil

 

[NicolasKL]

use a condom or some other form of contraceptive so the BABY (little human) never even begins a life. THAT is the choice.

No contraceptive is 100% effective, and abstinence is not a realistic alternative.

 

[Gizmologist]

I am sorry

A fertile woman KNOWS there is a good chance of conception and has the moral responsibility to take some sort of precaution. (as does the man) If that means a condom for him AND a contraceptive for her then so be it.

Are you suggesting that abortion is fine for no other reason than there is a slight chance that pre-emptive measures MAY not be 100% effective so she should do nothing until its time to abort a human baby?

This video explains that a baby can smile and react to light at 27 weeks THEREFORE nerve development is well along.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipV4OYnlMDA&feature=related

 

[NicolasKL]

A fertile woman KNOWS there is a good chance of conception and has the moral responsibility to take some sort of precaution. (as does the man) If that means a condom for him AND a contraceptive for her then so be it.

Are you suggesting that abortion is fine for no other reason than there is a slight chance that pre-emptive measures MAY not be 100% effective so she should do nothing until its time to abort a human baby?

No, I'm not even sure how you could possibly make that leap from what I said.

Your post reads like if people just used contraception there would never be a desire to have an abortion, which is of course false.

 

[skers_54]

A fertile woman KNOWS there is a good chance of conception and has the moral responsibility to take some sort of precaution. (as does the man) If that means a condom for him AND a contraceptive for her then so be it.

Are you suggesting that abortion is fine for no other reason than there is a slight chance that pre-emptive measures MAY not be 100% effective so she should do nothing until its time to abort a human baby?

This video explains that a baby can smile and react to light at 27 weeks THEREFORE nerve development is well along.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipV4OYnlMDA&feature=related

Nervous development is definitely underway by then. However, it takes a long time for it to mature. Neonates can't walk because the motor pathway is underdeveloped. The cortex is still myelinating into the third decade of life.

The pupillary light reflex bypasses the cortex and is mediated by the brainstem. It requires no input from higher cortical centers. Smiling is also mitigated by the motor efferent system, which is separate from the somatosensory system that conveys pain. It is a much simpler connection. Also, those events occur nearly 2 months after the stage that I'm commenting on. Extreme amounts of development occur in that span. Thus, the likelihood of pain being perceivable is much higher in the third trimester (which starts at 27 weeks).

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists' position is that it “knows of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain at 20 weeks' gestation.”

I'm not trying to justify abortion, as I am morally opposed to it. I'm merely stating that a fetus at 20 weeks does not perceive pain like you and I. Please understand that the nervous system is not like an electrical circuit and contains many parallel, antagonistic and specialized pathways.

 

[lsiberian]

No contraceptive is 100% effective, and abstinence is not a realistic alternative.

Abstinence worked for me.