How to defeat the Square Room Syndrome ?

[RacerChris]

Ok. Starting of think of putting together a small HT in an 11' x 11' x 8' high room. Did enough reading to know that the room's ratio are not ideal. See attachment for floor plan.

I plan to have a 5.1 system in the room. Other than that, the canvas is blank. What kinds of thing would help tame the square room's acoustics? Perhaps, sound panels on the end wall, break up the ceiling with angles?

I want to make this the best room for sound I can given the space. I rather handy so willing to do just about anything...

Chris

 

[RacerChris]

Hello? Anyone out there?

 

[j_garcia]

Bass traps in the corners, possibly put the system in a corner as well. This will at least move your first reflection points beyond your ears. Bass is the issue mainly, as the long waves cause the most cancellation in a square room.

 

[RacerChris]

Bass traps in the corners, possibly put the system in a corner as well. This will at least move your first reflection points beyond your ears. Bass is the issue mainly, as the long waves cause the most cancellation in a square room.

J,

Thanks for the reply. I am thinking of put the TV and Front/Center speakers on a Cabinet, then mounting the rear spearkers up at ceiling level.

1. BASS TRAPS - Will framing in a diagonal wall at each corner and applying acoustic panels to them be an effectiv Bass Trap?

2. REAR SPEAKERS - Is it a good idea to mount the rear speakers up high with the front at cabinet height? I'm afraid if I lower it too much, they will be too close to the ears...

3. CEILING - Should I do something to break up the ceiling? Perhaps a soffit around the perimeter?

Ideas?

Ideas?

 

[highfigh]

J,

Thanks for the reply. I am thinking of put the TV and Front/Center speakers on a Cabinet, then mounting the rear spearkers up at ceiling level.

1. BASS TRAPS - Will framing in a diagonal wall at each corner and applying acoustic panels to them be an effectiv Bass Trap?

2. REAR SPEAKERS - Is it a good idea to mount the rear speakers up high with the front at cabinet height? I'm afraid if I lower it too much, they will be too close to the ears...

3. CEILING - Should I do something to break up the ceiling? Perhaps a soffit around the perimeter? Ideas?

1) No, it won't be extremely effective. What would work is a solid wedge of absorptive material, like Roxul or Owens Corning 705. 703 will work but it doesn't come in 4" thickness and that means it will take more pieces to fill the space.

2) I would experiment with the height before I did the final placement. If you have a receiver with Audyssey, you can cheat the speaker distance after running the program. That way, you can make it seem like the rears are farther from you than they are. Remember- 1' in additional distance means the sound will be delayed about 1mS.

3) It may not hurt, but I would do the easy things first.

 

[westcott]

1) No, it won't be extremely effective. What would work is a solid wedge of absorptive material, like Roxul or Owens Corning 705. 703 will work but it doesn't come in 4" thickness and that means it will take more pieces to fill the space.

2) I would experiment with the height before I did the final placement. If you have a receiver with Audyssey, you can cheat the speaker distance after running the program. That way, you can make it seem like the rears are farther from you than they are. Remember- 1' in additional distance means the sound will be delayed about 1mS.

3) It may not hurt, but I would do the easy things first.

I agree with all the recommendations. Place speakers and display in a corner, bass traps in the corner(s), and placing the center channel at ear level. Rear speaker placement depends on speaker design (dipole vs. bipole, or direct).

I would mimimalize all AV equipement near your front speakers. This will only further reinforce the bass frequencies.

Last recommendation. Stay out of the center of the room and try to sit 2/3rds back into the room. Also avoid the back wall.

 

[RacerChris]

Thanks all for your input.

As you can see from the window, door and closet locations, it is difficult to accommodate putting screen in a corner....

How does this look? (Enlarge attached JPEG) I have added acoustic panels to most of the primary reflective surfaces. I also have the sub located in the middle of the room for now.

I am not sure if there is a real "formula" on how to do this in a square room, so plan to install long shelfs, so I move the speakers and acoustic panels around to see what works best... Good idea?

 

[westcott]

Thanks all for your input.

As you can see from the window, door and closet locations, it is difficult to accommodate putting screen in a corner....

How does this look? (Enlarge attached JPEG) I have added acoustic panels to most of the primary reflective surfaces. I also have the sub located in the middle of the room for now.

I am not sure if there is a real "formula" on how to do this in a square room, so plan to install long shelfs, so I move the speakers and acoustic panels around to see what works best... Good idea?

Without changing the seating position and the display position, I would say that you are fighting a loosing battle.

All the acoustic treatment in the world will not overcome the square room syndrome.

I think you should reconsider using this room.

 

[RacerChris]

Without changing the seating position and the display position, I would say that you are fighting a loosing battle.

All the acoustic treatment in the world will not overcome the square room syndrome.

I think you should reconsider using this room.

Westcott,

Thanks for the reply. But I'm stuck with this room and trying to make the best HT room given the shape. Thus, the title of this post - How to DEFEAT the Square Room Syndrome.

I found this article that uses a square room for a THX HT. Although they seem to get good results, the article does not cover the acoustic treatments to improve the results. That's where I'm at in the planning stage...

The room is getting cleared, then I'll redo the floor, probably with carpet to avoid more reflective surfaces, then I plan to build a soffit in the ceiling to help conceal the wiring, install a rope light for diffused lighting and break up the large ceiling reflective surface. After that I thought I'd temporarily install shelving for the speakers, mount a calibrated Plasma and fire the system up.

At that point, I'd build the Acoustic Panels and put them in the primary reflection positions and give it a listen. As for Bass Traps, I thought I'd wait till I find a problem with the bass before building and installing them. When all is said and done, I will build in a cabinet for the equipment and matching stand for the surrounds.

How does this sound for a plan? Any other adjustments I should consider? One problem I have is the right speaker is behind the door which is a pain, but I don't think I want to have the speakers closer to the monitor....

 

[jostenmeat]

Thus, the title of this post - How to DEFEAT the Square Room Syndrome.

I think your questions have been answered already. You CANNOT defeat the Square Room Syndrome. Right, so maybe you can help ameliorate the square room syndrome.

They've already told you to look towards treating of corners, boundary-meetings.

My advice, if you really want to try to tame the room some, is to corner trap, massively, yeah going superchunk. If you only have a pair to treat in mind, do the front wall, but you'd want to all the corners really. Think massive.

Regarding the door, I would put beefy panels at right angles, including treating the door itself.

Whatever you do, this is your room, so trust your ears. Just because the bass response might look horrible on a graph doesn't mean it can't be an enjoyable setup.

You can treat first reflections too, but it's the massive modes that are the biggest issue here. You suffer a doubling of your room modes since two dimensions are the same.

What's tougher is that not only is this square, but it is a smaller room being square.

Think overkill with basstraps. Focus on bass first, not first reflections for now.

As with salt and pepper, you can just add to taste. Build/buy your massive treatments, and pay attention to the SQ as you continually add them.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Headphones... Sorry had to.

 

[RacerChris]

... ameliorate the square room syndrome. CST -EXACTLY!

My advice, if you really want to try to tame the room some, is to corner trap, massively, yeah going superchunk. If you only have a pair to treat in mind, do the front wall, but you'd want to all the corners really. Think massive.

Regarding the door, I would put beefy panels at right angles, including treating the door itself.

Exactly Dude! That's what I'm trying do. Make the best of the room. And thanks alot all for your input - I'm learning alot! With the wonderous Internet I now know how to make my own acoustic panels and bass traps...

Anyways, I want to digress a bit... I already have a Home Theater with B&W 800 Series 5.1 system driven by a Denon 5805 Beast. I am a long time audio and video enthusiast having been recording HDTV on PC displayed on an HDTV rear projection TV in the late 90s. The system is installed in closet in the Living Room and is integrated into a HomeSeer Automation system with three zones.

Its a great system that can go really loud, but it shakes the house to get the full sound of a Theater System. My hope is the smaller room will be a more intimate setting and it's smallest will only need a much smaller system to energize the room.

So that is my goal to outfit this room to be the best it can given the restraints.

You guys are helping alot... keep the input going (and the jokes too )

Anyways, so what's involved in building a corner trap in this room? Do I build something like diffuser (see pic) would that help? Or put an real big acoustic panel in the corner? What specifically needs to be done to the room to have a corner trap?

Thanks guys!

 

[jostenmeat]

Anyways, I want to digress a bit... I already have a Home Theater with B&W 800 Series 5.1 system driven by a Denon 5805 Beast.

Nice stuff!!

Its a great system that can go really loud, but it shakes the house to get the full sound of a Theater System. My hope is the smaller room will be a more intimate setting and it's smallest will only need a much smaller system to energize the room.

So that is my goal to outfit this room to be the best it can given the restraints.

I believe this has already been offered, but I also would reconsider the idea of using this room. Larger spaces simply are so much easier to deal with. Let alone the whole square thing. I've tried the dedicated 2ch room, and man, it was IMPOSSSIBLE, and I say that after lugging a few hundred lbs of treatments in there. So, back to the living room they went. Small spaces can be pretty tough, depending.

The smaller room will definitely be easier to energize, particularly for bass, but you will be sacrificing bass SQ, due to the modes. For all of that money you might put into treatments here, could instead be used towards an awesome subwoofer in the larger space.

Anyways, so what's involved in building a corner trap in this room? Do I build something like diffuser (see pic) would that help? Or put an real big acoustic panel in the corner? What specifically needs to be done to the room to have a corner trap?

Forget diffusers for now. You need to concentrate on massive broadband absorption. Did I say massive? Good. Your question, again, was already answered, this one by highfigh:

1) No, it won't be extremely effective. What would work is a solid wedge of absorptive material, like Roxul or Owens Corning 705. 703 will work but it doesn't come in 4" thickness and that means it will take more pieces to fill the space.

So this is a google of "superchunk bass trap image". Note the wedges that are stacked . . .

http://www.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=superchunk+bass+trap+image&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=nCzKS7zxHY3isQP7w5y8Aw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQsAQwAA

 

[MidnightSensi]

I saw your layout and thought of this door trap design I had saved on YouTube:

Another thing to check out, although I haven't tried it (although I have had good experiences with their brand) so I can't recommend it, would be this:
http://mixonline.com/gear/reviews/audio_bag_end_etrap/

One or two of those, although expensive, may be required due to lack of usable surface area for trapping.

 

[RacerChris]

Small spaces can be pretty tough, depending.


So this is a google of "superchunk bass trap image". Note the wedges that are stacked . . .

http://www.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=superchunk+bass+trap+image&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=nCzKS7zxHY3isQP7w5y8Aw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQsAQwAA

Thanks a bunch for the detailed reply. The image helps alot to understand what specifically is involved in a bass trap. Wow. Where should a bass trap like that be located ideally? Opposite the subwoofer or at each corner?

 

[MidnightSensi]

Thanks a bunch for the detailed reply. The image helps alot to understand what specifically is involved in a bass trap. Wow. Where should a bass trap like that be located ideally? Opposite the subwoofer or at each corner?

The corners of the room are generally the starting place, because there is a right angle up the wall plus two perpendicular surfaces at the top and bottom (ceiling and floor). Next along where two surfaces meet perpendicular.

So, start with the corners (as pictured with the OC stack), then move from there.

 

[RacerChris]

Hey Guys! I'mmm bbaaaccckkk... Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyways, the HT Room is almost done. Sound was harsh at first, but then built and install six "mid/high" acoustic panels, 2 with 4" 703 and 4 with 2" 703 Rigid Fiberglass. Did alot to reduce reflections and tell you the truth having a hard time hearing a "problem" now... Sounds great with a $500 Pioneer Receiver and Energy Take One Speaker system...

But, I still have 3 2x2 2" 703 left. So thought I'd make a Bass Trap. Saw this one online and thought I'd see what you guys think - 1/4" plywood seems pretty stiff in a 2x4 box... Was thinking of installing it behind the couch - bass frequencies with their long wavelength go through couches right? There just not much wall space left in the room...

 

[westcott]

Hey Guys! I'mmm bbaaaccckkk... Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyways, the HT Room is almost done. Sound was harsh at first, but then built and install six "mid/high" acoustic panels, 2 with 4" 703 and 4 with 2" 703 Rigid Fiberglass. Did alot to reduce reflections and tell you the truth having a hard time hearing a "problem" now... Sounds great with a $500 Pioneer Receiver and Energy Take One Speaker system...

But, I still have 3 2x2 2" 703 left. So thought I'd make a Bass Trap. Saw this one online and thought I'd see what you guys think - 1/4" plywood seems pretty stiff in a 2x4 box... Was thinking of installing it behind the couch - bass frequencies with their long wavelength go through couches right? There just not much wall space left in the room...

Glad to hear your investment in room treatments have paid off.

Ethan is pretty sharp fellow when it comes to this kind of stuff. Sure worth a try although the greatest benefit will be derived with traps placed in corners and directly behind the subwoofer. Next in importance would be room intersections.