Power Conditioner Recommendations

  • Thread starter PearlcorderS701
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jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I use an APC power conditioner but I'm not convinced you really need more than surge protection. The power transformer sections of your equipment should already isolate the signal from any noises on the line. Having a unit that keeps the voltage steady is also not needed in most cases. Most equipment is pretty tolerant of normal voltage swings.

If you have a problem with brownouts, that's a different story. Then I would recommend a UPS but a unit that has enough current for amplifiers and stuff won't be cheap.

Jim
 
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PearlcorderS701

Banned
I use an APC power conditioner but I'm not convinced you really need more than surge protection. The power transformer sections of your equipment should already isolate the signal from any noises on the line. Having a unit that keeps the voltage steady is also not needed in most cases. Most equipment is pretty tolerant of normal voltage swings.

If you have a problem with brownouts, that's a different story. Then I would recommend a UPS but a unit that has enough current for amplifiers and stuff won't be cheap.

Jim
Thank you very much for this; it's kind of more in line with what I wanted to know. :)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
My 2c:
Furman AC-215A.
Furman is very known and highly respectably company and doesn't have "brand" related price add-ons like some companies do (even APC)

I'd pick Furman over same priced APC any day ...
That's not made for a whole system. They market it as the conditioner for HD displays.
 
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PearlcorderS701

Banned
That's not made for a whole system. They market it as the conditioner for HD displays.
Interesting; I didn't know that.

It seems like the question was pretty much answered by the member before you, in that perhaps conditioning is not necessarily "needed" beyond basic surge protection (unless perhaps in top-shelf, extremely high-powered systems).
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I use an APC power conditioner but I'm not convinced you really need more than surge protection. The power transformer sections of your equipment should already isolate the signal from any noises on the line. Having a unit that keeps the voltage steady is also not needed in most cases. Most equipment is pretty tolerant of normal voltage swings.

If you have a problem with brownouts, that's a different story. Then I would recommend a UPS but a unit that has enough current for amplifiers and stuff won't be cheap.

Jim
Most equipment is tolerant of voltage swings but microprocessors aren't. I had a storm roll through a few nights ago and while I had the system on, the lights flickered very slightly, once (yeah, I have the ability to discern one flicker when my halogen lamp is on:D). My new AVR-990 turned off and back on- still on Satellite TV and the sound was normal. I didn't use any other sources that night but when I turned it on the next morning, all of my tuner presets were gone, along with any other settings I had changed. Audyssey was reset, all of the input assignments, speaker setup, everything. This didn't affect anything else, just the receiver. Now, I would normally assume a manufacturer would design some kind of tolerance for this kind of thing into a receiver in this price range but I haven't moved up their food chain yet. For the time being, I did a hard reset and made all of the changes to make it operate the same as before the power blip.

I may have a bad unit but since I haven't seen any bad Denon pieces in a long time, I kind of doubt it.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Interesting; I didn't know that.

It seems like the question was pretty much answered by the member before you, in that perhaps conditioning is not necessarily "needed" beyond basic surge protection (unless perhaps in top-shelf, extremely high-powered systems).
High powered doesn't mean it needs surge protection. Amplifiers are pretty tolerant of this kind of thing but preamps/processors with all kinds of digital circuits hate it. Those miniscule wires and circuit traces don't last long when the power spikes happen. Obviously, the rest of my equipment can handle spikes pretty well but I now think I need much cleaner power. My last amp was all analog and the tuner was pretty basic but none of my customers have had this kind of thing happen, either.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Interesting; I didn't know that.

It seems like the question was pretty much answered by the member before you, in that perhaps conditioning is not necessarily "needed" beyond basic surge protection (unless perhaps in top-shelf, extremely high-powered systems).
I think it depends where you live. At this location it is a must. Now I'm rural and in the winter especially there are big problems. I did a continuous monitor over several days a year ago, and if anyone saw that he would see you need a belt and braces approach.

However there was a paper about this in Audio Amateur a few years back, that showed that even in the majority of urban areas, a belt and braces approach is in order.

My friend in St. Paul Minnesota has a very expensive system, and his dealer sold him and expensive regenerative conditioner, which failed.

I installed a refurb APC smart UPS for around $200. My friend tells me his unit frequently activate to support and shave voltage and even go to full inversion, with full mains isolation for periods, quite frequently.

So I'm certain most members are in denial and that this is likely a significant problem nation wide.

I regard it as excellent insurance. Initially I did not install a UPS in my second system on the first level. I was plagued with equipment failures. I have had none since installing the UPS.

However I never have had good luck cutting corners, it always seems to bite me. So I have learned in the world of hard knocks to engineer to the highest standards that are reasonable. It saves a lot of headaches and money.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Interesting; I didn't know that.

It seems like the question was pretty much answered by the member before you, in that perhaps conditioning is not necessarily "needed" beyond basic surge protection (unless perhaps in top-shelf, extremely high-powered systems).
If your power is clean (not likely in the US, especially close to any kind of industrial or manufacturing facility), spikes will be the only thing to worry about, really. If you intend to use anything that has microprocessors, it will last longer and work better. We all read and hear that all computers need to be connected through a good surge suppressor and preferably, some kind of filtering. There's a lot of processing power in new receivers and many, like my new one, have a network card that's similar to, if not exactly the same as, what's in a computer. They require occasional firmware updates, like a computer. They can access data on a hard drive and convert files from an iPod, etc. It requires cleaner power than the grid can deliver.

I have been to product training by Furman, APC, PanaMax (part of Furman) and some others. Normally, product training is a dog and pony show but Furman's trainer is an electrical engineer as well as a recording musician/recording engineer. This kind of pedigree doesn't make it impossible that he bought in to the D&P show but, having compared notes with other EEs that I know, he's not just there to BS people. He's really passionate about clean power and it's almost a crusade for him. Go to the Furman site and listen/watch the training material. It's interesting to see what we're dealing with.

I put a Furman unit in the system of a customer that has two cable boxes, ReQuest music server, Denon receiver, Pioneer commercial plasma display, DVD player, B&K preamp, Sony LaserDisc player, Mac power amp and a ProJect turntable. Three years and I haven't had a service call due to any kind of power issue. The original remotes were a complete PITA but that's the only reason I had problems. Oh, and their two-year old stuffed a bunch of CDs into the drawer of the music server, so it wouldn't open.
 
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PearlcorderS701

Banned
So then, what's the concensus here, guys? Are the kinds of conditioners I am talking about -- that is, the typical Monsters, APCs etc. -- worth installing?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
So then, what's the concensus here, guys? Are the kinds of conditioners I am talking about -- that is, the typical Monsters, APCs etc. -- worth installing?
If you are using a surge protector, you should no that it meets UL standard 1449 and ANSI IEEE standard C62.41.

Also all surge protectors degrade as they are exposed to surges. Good ones should have a LED indicator to let you know when the device needs replacement.

So that cover surges. As stated previously cleaning the AC power as a concept is bogus for most audio and HT applications, however for units with microprocessor devices, tight control of under and over voltage is highly desirable, as well as isolation from the grid during severe events, and soft shut downs after prolonged power interruption. That is really the most you can do to protect your equipment.

That will keep you safe from pretty much anything short of a direct lightning strike.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
So then, what's the concensus here, guys? Are the kinds of conditioners I am talking about -- that is, the typical Monsters, APCs etc. -- worth installing?
The solution isn't universal. If this is to be selected logically, you would need to find out how stable your electrical service is, then address any problems. If it's always within a couple of volts of the stated number and it never has any noise, a whole house protector might be all you need. Real world analysis shows that power is unstable, often has surges and carries noise from a variety of sources.

You may be OK with surge suppression power strip. Odds are, it won't be enough protection. Skimping on this may cost you more, in the long run.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
So then, what's the concensus here, guys? Are the kinds of conditioners I am talking about -- that is, the typical Monsters, APCs etc. -- worth installing?
Let's go back. All electronics work normally even when incandescent bulbs change intensity by 50%. That is the job of its power supply. Make voltage variations (even that large) completely irrelevant. Meanwhile, surge protectors and power conditioners do nothing for that electrical anomaly.

Power conditioners. View the spec numbers. Most are nothing more than power strip protectors inside a more expensive box. Then the same circuit selling in a grocery store for $7 can be sold as a power conditioner for $hundreds.

Meanwhile, anything a power conditioner might do is already inside electronic supplies.

See that $7 power strip protector in the grocery store? Least responsible companies (ie Monster Cable) simply sell the same circuit in an expensive box for $150. Again, what does it do? Well it if provides effective surge protection, then each type of surge is listed with numbers that define protection from that surge. Monster, et al protectors only claim to protect from a surge made irrelevant by the design in electronic supplies. Anything that might work on its power cord must already be inside the supply.

UL1449 says nothing about power conditioning or surge protection. UL says nothing about transistor safety. UL is only about human safety. UL1449 says the protector should not spit sparks and flame when it fails. Protectors can even fail during UL1449 testing and be approved. Because UL is only about a protector not killing humans.

No protector is C62.41 approved. C62.41 is defines electrical waveforms. These waveforms are used during UL testing. No protector meets 'waveforms'. But least responsible protector manufacturers like to hype C62.41 and UL1449 as if waveforms and human safety testing means better surge protection.

Numerous electrical anomalies can exist. Electronics are required to be so robust that 'dirty' American electricity is ideal clean. When does electronics often see the most 'dirty' power? When a typical UPS is in battery backup mode. For example, this 120 volt UPS outputs two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. No AC utility will ever provide power that 'dirty'. And even that electricity is ideal acceptable to any electronics.

Purchasing a solution without first identifying the anomaly is how salesmen reap massive profits from the naive. Ie a $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts and expensive paint for $150 - Monster Cable.

Do you have harmonic problems? EMI? Frequency variation? Low voltage? Utility switching noise? Excessive power factor variation?

How often are you replacing dimmer switches? Hourly? Daily? These electronic devices are some of the least robust. Notice how long the sales line in every hardware store to buy dimmer switches? Destructive anomalies are that infrequent. Your concern is a rare anomaly that may occur maybe once every seven years. That can vary significantly even in the same town. Rare and so severe as to overwhelm protection already inside appliances. A solution for about $1 per protected appliance. And not defined in anything previously discussed.

But again, what do you want to solve? You must answer that before buying a solution.
 
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PearlcorderS701

Banned
There is no current problem I need to solve; I just wanted to make sure the components are getting the cleanest possible power -- for example, that our washing machine, dishwasher, etc. isn't "dirtying up" the performance of our HT...
 
W

westom

Audioholic
There is no current problem I need to solve; I just wanted to make sure the components are getting the cleanest possible power -- for example, that our washing machine, dishwasher, etc. isn't "dirtying up" the performance of our HT...
If a washing machine creates 'dirty' power, then a washing machine kills itself first.

Any protector must be on the washing machine. And that machine is destroying GFCIs that are more sensitive to dirty power. That do not have the massive protector provided in all electronics power supplies.

'Dirty' power created by appliances is popular because plug-in protector manufacturers (ie Monster) promote the myth. And never provide numbers.

What is a spike from an appliance? If tens of volts, then it is massive. Meanwhile surge protectors ignore anything less than 330 volts. Surge protector would ignore a massive surge from the washing machine because that surge is only noise - too small. Numbers that many will not provide when promoting mythical appliance generated surges.

So how many clock radios do you replace every day because the refrigerator creates surges? All appliances contain significant protection that makes 'rumor' dirty power irrelevant. Your concern is a rare anomaly that occurs maybe once every seven years. What is your neighborhood history over the past decade?
 
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PearlcorderS701

Banned
Your concern is a rare anomaly that occurs maybe once every seven years.
So, you'd be of the opinion that surge protection, at the least, is all that's required?

What is your neighborhood history over the past decade?
Not sure; just moved in less than a month ago. Brand new house.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
So, you'd be of the opinion that surge protection, at the least, is all that's required?
But only the surge protectors that actually do surge protection. Monster, APC, etc do not even claim that protection.

A typically destructive surge seeks earth ground. Either its energy dissipates harmlessly in earth without entering the building. If inside a building, then energy will hunt for earth destructively via appliances. One 'whole house' protector on AC mains means the furnace, dimmer switches, dishwasher, etc are protected from typically destructive surges. Your concern is the anomaly that occurs maybe once every seven years.

33,000 volts fell upon local distribution wires. Hundreds of electric meters exploded from their pans. Many suffered appliance damage and destroyed power strip protectors. But my friend knows someone who knows this stuff. He had only one properly earthed 'whole house' protector - and no damage even to the protector. These are the events that can overwhelm protection already inside every appliance. What most needs protection during a surge? Smoke detector / fire alarm system. Only an earthed 'whole house' protector protects that and everything else - for about $1 per protected appliance. Nothing else posted provides that protection.
 
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PearlcorderS701

Banned
Oh brother...

This is in a bit over my head.

I think I'll just stick with my surge protector system for now.
 
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westom

Audioholic
This is in a bit over my head.
Install one 'whole house' protector so that everything is protected. Or a plug-in protector (for tens or 100 times more money) to have virtually no protection. A plug-in protector that sometimes contributes to computer damage. That simple.

Also is scary. A problem seen by most fire departments. A problem only with protectors designed to maximize profits. Not designed (nor claim) to provide protection:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

See those scary pictures? It is that simple. A choice that you make even by doing nothing. Avert that threat by installing only one 'whole house' protector for about $1 per protected appliance.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If a washing machine creates 'dirty' power, then a washing machine kills itself first.

Any protector must be on the washing machine. And that machine is destroying GFCIs that are more sensitive to dirty power. That do not have the massive protector provided in all electronics power supplies.

'Dirty' power created by appliances is popular because plug-in protector manufacturers (ie Monster) promote the myth. And never provide numbers.

What is a spike from an appliance? If tens of volts, then it is massive. Meanwhile surge protectors ignore anything less than 330 volts. Surge protector would ignore a massive surge from the washing machine because that surge is only noise - too small. Numbers that many will not provide when promoting mythical appliance generated surges.

So how many clock radios do you replace every day because the refrigerator creates surges? All appliances contain significant protection that makes 'rumor' dirty power irrelevant. Your concern is a rare anomaly that occurs maybe once every seven years. What is your neighborhood history over the past decade?
Some of the Furman conditioners are rated as delivering 120VAC with line voltage range from 80VAC to 140VAC and crowbar at 180VAC. Most of the UPS units I would consider for what I do are able to provide actual sine wave when the power is interrupted, not square wave with a little rounding over. However, I'm still going to install a protector at the panel for anything that occurs outside of the house.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
Most of the UPS units I would consider for what I do are able to provide actual sine wave when the power is interrupted, not square wave with a little rounding over.
So you are spending about $500 for each UPS just so the sine wave is a 'pure' sine wave? Why? Why does electronics need a sine wave?

What happens between that sine wave and the electronics. Sine or square wave is filtered. The converted to high (over 300 volts) DC. Then filtered again. Then converted to radio frequency high voltage - real 'dirty' power. The 'dirtiest'. Then galvanic isolation and more filtering. Converted to high current radio frequency spikes. Then converted to DC. The filtered again.

What is the difference between a pure sine wave and a square wave? Makes no difference. If you think the UPS is doing something useful, well, a power supply converts 'clean' power back to 'dirtiest' and spikey high voltages. Did you know the power supply makes electricity that 'dirty' before converting it back to clean DC again? There is virtually no advantage between the $500 UPS and the $100 one. Power gets converted to even 'dirtier' power. Spikes so sharp as to become radio frequencies.

Yes, power supplies are that robust as to make the electricity even 'dirtier'. And then clean it even better. Why spend $hundreds more for a UPS that is only 'rumored' to have a "pure" sine wave.

All electronics are so robust as to make every UPS output even 'dirtier'. And then 'cleans' that even 'dirtiest' power to ideal DC. Clean it so much better that the DC output looks exactly same no matter what UPS provides that power. This popular need for a 'pure' sine wave is also why everyone desperately needs 'pure' Ivory soap.
 
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