Upgraditis: Suggestions $1500-3k LCR Budget

[sholling]

For the last 4 years I've been pretty happy with my BA VR3 towers but for some reason (I blame Tom's Song Tower review ) I'm starting to get the itch to upgrade. What I'm looking for is a very neutral speaker with a better sound stage in my limited space, and much more detail without sacrificing the excellent mid bass, decent (40hz or so) bass extension, and speaker efficiency that I'm used to. My tastes run mainly to jazz, acoustic guitar, and new age, but I have also been known to crank up some loud classic rock & roll every now and then. My challenge is budget and space. I'm on a fixed income and if (which is still a BIG if) I go through with this I'll have to live with whatever I choose for 10 years or more. Use will be 50:50 music and TV/Movies, and the power source for now will be my Onkyo TX-NR906 and with the deep bass handled by a SVS PB12 Plus/2.

As you can see from the attached drawing space is very tight. I think that the tight fit and my desire for detail probably eliminates most of the bipolar towers but I still plan to drive the 50 miles to audition Def-Techs. That's about the closest Magnolia Audio. They also carry MartainLogan which I have never heard.

My current leading contender is Salk's Song Towers and Song Center - probably with the budget busting ribbon tweeter option. I've spoken with Jim Salk and he's sees them as a good fit for the room and my receiver, especially if I opt for the less attractive front ported option. The problem is that this would be not only a budget buster but a blind faith purchase because the odds of auditioning these is slim to none.

I have been reading everything in the Pro Review section for months and what I'm looking for here are 1) thoughts on the above speaker choices. 2) Additional suggestions for relatively easy to find speakers that fit my room and budget. 3) Any other related thoughts or advice that you may have.

I'm pretty cheap and may chicken out but then again I just might pull the trigger this week.

This drawing is from a room treatment project that I've been working on. The rear of the room is complete and the treatments for the front of the room are on the way and should be here this week.

 

[Davemcc]

My current leading contender is Salk's Song Towers and Song Center - probably with the budget busting ribbon tweeter option. I've spoken with Jim Salk and he's sees them as a good fit for the room and my receiver, especially if I opt for the less attractive front ported option. The problem is that this would be not only a budget buster but a blind faith purchase because the odds of auditioning these is slim to none.

Number one, I'm pretty sure that Jim Salk will let you return the Songtowers if you are unhappy with them. You would likely only be one way shipping costs out of pocket. Number two, I don't see any conceivable scenario whereby one would return the ribbon Songtowers once they hear them in their own home. Seriously, they are every bit as good as everybody says they are and represent a tremendous value. I've heard them and they are at the top of my list. I highly recommend them. Not only that, but they are also beautifully finished.

 

[Swerd]

I certainly agree with everything Dave says.

I assume, if you already spoke with Jim Salk, you don't live near a SongTower owner, where you can go and listen.

If your budget is tight, have you considered the SongBird, or SongSurround I instead of the SongTowers? Overall, these speakers produce a similar sound, a "family" resemblance. The main difference is price and less bass performance.

Just curious, why do you think you need the ports in the front? From my experience (and that of other SongTower owners) they do not suffer the usual bass problems when they are placed close to a wall. Apparently, this is one of the benefits of transmission line type bass compared to that from a ported bass-reflex cabinet. If that is your reason, I think you should get the standard rear port.

 

[Nuance AH]

Just curious, why do you think you need the ports in the front? From my experience (and that of other SongTower owners) they do not suffer the usual bass problems when they are placed close to a wall. Apparently, this is one of the benefits of transmission line type bass compared to that from a ported bass-reflex cabinet. If that is your reason, I think you should get the standard rear port.

I think he was talking about just the center channel...? If not, I agree with Swerd: get the standard rear ported ST's.

 

[sholling]

I certainly agree with everything Dave says.

I assume, if you already spoke with Jim Salk, you don't live near a SongTower owner, where you can go and listen.

If your budget is tight, have you considered the SongBird, or SongSurround I instead of the SongTowers? Overall, these speakers produce a similar sound, a "family" resemblance. The main difference is price and less bass performance.

I considered them briefly but decided that I'd rather spend an extra couple of hundred now and not be mad at myself later. I also considered the bookshelves with the idea of later (when I've saved up again) placing them on a pair of front firing sealed subs like eD's A5s-300 but I think I'd rather just go with Song Towers.

Just curious, why do you think you need the ports in the front? From my experience (and that of other SongTower owners) they do not suffer the usual bass problems when they are placed close to a wall. Apparently, this is one of the benefits of transmission line type bass compared to that from a ported bass-reflex cabinet. If that is your reason, I think you should get the standard rear port.

The front porting idea for all three front speakers was Jim's and was based on the tight spaces/close proximity to both back and side walls. He wasn't sure it was necessary but just tossed it out there as a possibility. I would only have about 12-14" behind them and 8-10" from the speakers to the side wall on the right and the cabinets on the left. I'm thinking that it's more to do with corner loading than anything else.

 

[Swerd]

The front porting idea for all three front speakers was Jim's and was based on the tight spaces/close proximity to both back and side walls. He wasn't sure it was necessary but just tossed it out there as a possibility. I would only have about 12-14" behind them and 8-10" from the speakers to the side wall on the right and the cabinets on the left. I'm thinking that it's more to do with corner loading than anything else.

With 12-14" behind them, you will have plenty of room with the rear-ported SongTowers.

Read this brief discussion, especially Dennis Murphy's response:

Well, I just finished comparing one Songtower 8" from a rear wall with one about 2 feet out. I have a very high quality remote-controlled A-B box that allows me to make instant comparisons. Since I only have 2 ST's, I couldn't investigate how the closer rear-wall placement affects imaging. But I could check for any boominess in the bass, and there wasn't any. If anything, I prefered the closer spacing. The bass seemed a little more solid. So I don't think there's a problem unless you jam the speaker up against the wall and completely mess up the flow from the rear opening.

After reading that some 2½ years ago, I tried it and confirmed it for myself. Apparently this a feature that many if not all transmission line speakers have - you don't need to pull them out from the wall behind them as much as other types of speakers seem to require.

Even if you jam the standard plinth on the SongTowers up against the wall, you'll still have several inches of space behind the port opening. That should be plenty.

 

[Shock]

I always recommend the Diva series from Swan.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/swan-diva-5-2/products_id/30
and http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/swan-diva-5-2c/products_id/37

All 3 speakers for 1500 bucks. Pretty much the best speakers in terms of performance and looks you can buy imo. Also I tend to prefer the look of front vented speakers than to rear vented. I don't know why, I just think it gives the cabinets more character.

 

[sholling]

With 12-14" behind them, you will have plenty of room with the rear-ported SongTowers.

Read this brief discussion, especially Dennis Murphy's response:

After reading that some 2½ years ago, I tried it and confirmed it for myself. Apparently this a feature that many if not all transmission line speakers have - you don't need to pull them out from the wall behind them as much as other types of speakers seem to require.

Even if you jam the standard plinth on the SongTowers up against the wall, you'll still have several inches of space behind the port opening. That should be plenty.

I just got off the phone with Jim and he agrees that rear ported for the towers and front ported for the center.

 

[sholling]

I always recommend the Diva series from Swan.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/swan-diva-5-2/products_id/30
and http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/swan-diva-5-2c/products_id/37

All 3 speakers for 1500 bucks. Pretty much the best speakers in terms of performance and looks you can buy imo.

Thank you. I'll read up on those right away.

 

[Shock]

Thank you. I'll read up on those right away.

The 6.1's are probably the best looking loudspeakers you can buy at that price point. I mean, they're more works or art than speakers. I found them for even cheaper than the 5.2's

http://www.ozhometheater.com/ozht_prodcat_htspeakers_floorstanding.htm
http://www.ozhometheater.com/ozht_prodcat_htspeakers_center.htm

You also get your choice of colour.

 

[jostenmeat]

My 2 pennies: If I absolutely had to buy a pair of speakers in this price range, that I've never heard before, I likely would choose Salk as well.

However, 10 years, as the bare minimum, is a really long time. So long, that I don't think a whole year of auditioning is overkill.

I've listened to VR2s, and even in a very bad room, was I actually very impressed with how extremely wide the soundstage seemed. OTOH, and it was just a guess at best, there seemed to be some funny thing going on with either xover, or maybe not the best match between drivers, or maybe it was just the room.

From what I have heard, B&W 804s and Dynaudio Contours would make my short/medium list, as they both fall into budget often on the classifieds.

I would also try to figure out a way to listen to some Linkwitz Orions, however these are not for you as they require significant space from the front wall.

 

[sholling]

My 2 pennies: If I absolutely had to buy a pair of speakers in this price range, that I've never heard before, I likely would choose Salk as well.

However, 10 years, as the bare minimum, is a really long time. So long, that I don't think a whole year of auditioning is overkill.

I've listened to VR2s, and even in a very bad room, was I actually very impressed with how extremely wide the soundstage seemed. OTOH, and it was just a guess at best, there seemed to be some funny thing going on with either xover, or maybe not the best match between drivers, or maybe it was just the room.

From what I have heard, B&W 804s and Dynaudio Contours would make my short/medium list, as they both fall into budget often on the classifieds.

I would also try to figure out a way to listen to some Linkwitz Orions, however these are not for you as they require significant space from the front wall.

The VM3s are darn good speakers for what they cost and out in the open have a very nice sound stage. I think that I may have the problem figured out or at least a place to start looking. I think just maybe that the small alcove like area is causing a double corner loading situation with the rear ported VM3s and is just burying the upper mids and highs. Jim seems to have come to the same conclusion and now suggests front porting the STs. I have two foam bass traps for those corners due here Wednesday and we'll see if that's what's strangling the VM3s. At least it should give me a better idea. I'll download a nice slow 40-20,000hz sweep and see if I can spot any glaring holes.

 

[Nuance AH]

I just got off the phone with Jim and he agrees that rear ported for the towers and front ported for the center.

Very cool. Whatever you chose, I hope they bring you years of happiness.

 

[sholling]

Itch Scratched

Before I tell you what I decided to do I'll start with what I've learned. This just really boils down to never put rear ported speakers in the corners of a small alcove. I pulled my Boston Acoustics VR3s out into the room about 30" from the back wall and stuffed the corners with Auralex tiles to simulate a bass trap. Holy heck what a difference. My old VR3s came to life with all the balance and clarity that convinced me to buy them in the first place. My best guess is that what I was running into was corner loading on steroids that simply overwhelmed all of the mids and highs and left me with a muddy mess that I couldn't bring myself to listen to very often. Unfortunately I can't leave them there and I will still have to replace them.

I spent hours researching front ported speakers (Swan's Diva 6.2, Aperion's Intimus 6T, and Paradigm) plus a lot of time on the phone with Jim Salk. We both came to the conclusion that I had to go with front ported speakers. I've busted the heck out of my budget but Jim has invested so much time in helping me that I'd feel like a complete dog going elsewhere. Plus his awesome reputation has me drooling over his speakers. So..... I'm having Jim build me a completely custom set of front ported Song Tower RTs and a matching Song Center. Jim came up with a way to blend in that front port so that it won't be obvious. Hopefully in 4-6 weeks I'll be able to post pictures.

In the mean time I have Auralex LENRD bass traps on order for the corners and treatments on their way for the front wall. If all else fails I'll pack up my toys and move them from the family room at the back of the house to the living room up front. I'd rather not do that but it's nice to have a Plan B.

 

[Nuance AH]

Very cool, Sholling. You may have the first ever pair of SongTower front ported speakers. Sweet!

I look forward to your impressions and pictures.

 

[jostenmeat]

Before I tell you what I decided to do I'll start with what I've learned. This just really boils down to never put rear ported speakers in the corners of a small alcove. I pulled my Boston Acoustics VR3s out into the room about 30" from the back wall and stuffed the corners with Auralex tiles to simulate a bass trap. Holy heck what a difference. My old VR3s came to life with all the balance and clarity that convinced me to buy them in the first place. My best guess is that what I was running into was corner loading on steroids that simply overwhelmed all of the mids and highs and left me with a muddy mess that I couldn't bring myself to listen to very often. Unfortunately I can't leave them there and I will still have to replace them.

I'm sure the ports being on the rear must exacerbate the issue, but in my VERY limited experiences, pulling out speakers from the wall always sounds better. I've mentioned something like this here, on multiple occasions, and have went so far to wonder out loud how many AHers have even tried. I attribute a lot of this lack of experimentation to simple aesthetitcs, you know, "Oh, it sounds amazing three feet out, but I can't walk around my own living room now!". Still, I do suspect many people have not even tried. I have once or twice recommended, in a tiny room, to somehow mark off the best spot, and simply to pull the speakers out to those spots for critical listening. Somewhat similarly to how a person might pull the couch off the back wall, feet on sliders, for critical listening.

I guess, at least in places I've lived, SBIR muddies up speakers a lot, even modest bookshelves, front or rear ported, didn't matter. You will see b pape often recommending to treat the front wall, behind the speakers, no matter if they are front or rear ported. And those are my experiences . . .

Congrats on the purchase.

 

[sholling]

I'm sure the ports being on the rear must exacerbate the issue, but in my VERY limited experiences, pulling out speakers from the wall always sounds better. I've mentioned something like this here, on multiple occasions, and have went so far to wonder out loud how many AHers have even tried. I attribute a lot of this lack of experimentation to simple aesthetitcs, you know, "Oh, it sounds amazing three feet out, but I can't walk around my own living room now!". Still, I do suspect many people have not even tried. I have once or twice recommended, in a tiny room, to somehow mark off the best spot, and simply to pull the speakers out to those spots for critical listening. Somewhat similarly to how a person might pull the couch off the back wall, feet on sliders, for critical listening.

I guess, at least in places I've lived, SBIR muddies up speakers a lot, even modest bookshelves, front or rear ported, didn't matter. You will see b pape often recommending to treat the front wall, behind the speakers, no matter if they are front or rear ported. And those are my experiences . . .

Congrats on the purchase.

I can't disagree. Up until now I'd limited my placement experiments to distances that I could live with. I don't expect front porting to be a cure-all, nor do I expect treatments to be a cure-all. What I'm hoping is that the combination of front porting, bass traps, and treatments will give me the ability to get "close enough" to the rear wall that I'm not tripping over my speaker, say 2 feet. This updated drawing shows the treatments that are on order for the front of the room.

 

[Swerd]

Congrats on the purchase! What veneer or finish did you order? I'm certain that you won't regret getting these speakers.

Now the next few weeks will just fly by .

Promise yourself, you will not second guess your plans, and you will not get impatient and buy some exotic cables just because you can't stand the wait.

Wait until you have the new speakers before thinking about any next step.

 

[sholling]

Congrats on the purchase! What veneer or finish did you order? I'm certain that you won't regret getting these speakers.

These will be a departure from classic Song Towers. The finish will be the Honey Oak to match my cabinets but the satin black baffle on the front will extend all the way down the front to blend the front port in better.

Photo Courtesy Salk Sound: Song Towers in Honey Oak.​

Promise yourself, you will not second guess your plans, and you will not get impatient and buy some exotic cables just because you can't stand the wait.

Wait until you have the new speakers before thinking about any next step.

No danger of that. I don't buy fancy cables and the STs have tapped out my toy budget.

 

[KEW]

You've got to love working with someone like Jim Salk who is willing to customize and cares about the details the way he does!