Turntable Inquiries, Round Two...and a CD Recorder Connection Question

[PearlcorderS701]

Okay, so remember when I was talking about building the two-channel system in a separate room from the HT in my new house? I still want to do that, but the budget needed to go into the HT room initially, and still does...

That said, I purchased the Polk RTi12's from Frys on a pretty awesome deal, and while those will be serving main L/R duties in the HT, I can begin turning the attention towards the two-channel system once again, if not to buy it all right now. I have pretty much settled on the Onkyo A-9555 integrated amp or either of their two stereo receivers (see my sig) in terms of power for the two channel system, and I'm now stuck on which turntable...

It had been suggested to me in that initial thread of mine that I could go with a Technics SL-1200 as a good "somewhat affordable" choice, and I'd like to continue discussing this...should the 1200 be just as good a table for serious home use as it is/was for professional DJ use? Can I rest assured knowing I can use the 1200 in my home rig and it will be just as "appropriate" for playing LP's and 45's in this situation? Is the 1200 a wise TT choice, in everyone's opinion? I really can't go higher than what the Technics costs, in terms of budget -- so $500 is really the max I want to spend.

Now, moving on from that topic, I have a question regarding optimum connection of my Tascam CD recorder through whatever receiver or amp I end up getting; how will all this hook up? The recorder is going to be used to burn CD-Rs from vinyl as well as discs from my Marantz CC4001 CD changer. The changer will be going analog out to the amp or receiver's "CD" input, while its digital out will be connected directly to the Tascam's digital in (coax) to make direct digital burns to the recorder.

How does the recorder then connect to the receiver or amp I get, now that a turntable is involved? Does the turntable go into the recorder's analog in's, and then the recorder's outs go to the receiver or amp's TAPE loop? Or does the turntable go directly into the receiver or amp's PHONO in? If the table goes into the PHONO input of the receiver/amp, how does its signal go to the CD recorder for recording?

If anyone could lend some insight here, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, fellow Audioholics.

 

[WmAx]

Remember, the 1200 was originally designed as an audiophile device. It was later adopted by professionals due to it's unusual high reliability/durability.

There is no better choice in your price range unless you are willing to go used.

Buy from KAB ; they do extensive QC on every unit before shipping, and yet still have very competitive pricing.

Even though the tone arm is a bit dated, you can always update that later on if it's bothering you. But frankly, your stereo setup is not going to outperform the capabilities of this table even with the stock tonearm.

Every other NEW purchase choice involves taking a big dump on table quality to only get a better tonearm. And remember, the tone arm on the 1200 is NOT bad, it is not low quality. It's just dated, and has more resonant behavior than many of the modern tables will have. The tone arm is actually superior in quality and tolerances compared to the others in it's price range, so far as the gimbal system/bearings and many other rear mechanical parts are concerned. It's only real weakness is it's resonant behavior of the tube section and headshell system.

-Chris

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Thanks for the quick reply, Chris! I was hoping to hear back from you, as it was you that initially gave me all the great, detailed information and opinions...

Remember, the 1200 was originally designed as an audiophile device. It was later adopted by professionals due to it's unusual high reliability/durability.

Yes; I recall you telling me this -- I just wanted to be certain I read it right! Is it common to find the 1200 in serious home rigs, for folks wanting to play their 45 and LP collections?

There is no better choice in your price range unless you are willing to go used.

Thank you.

Buy from KAB ; they do extensive QC on every unit before shipping, and yet still have very competitive pricing.

Would this be KAB.com?

Even though the tone arm is a bit dated, you can always update that later on if it's bothering you. But frankly, your stereo setup is not going to outperform the capabilities of this table even with the stock tonearm.

Do you mean even if I went with the Onkyo A-9555 integrated amp, the power and processing stage won't be nearly as impressive -- even compared to the 1200?

Will be rig really be that low-end?

Every other NEW purchase choice involves taking a big dump on table quality to only get a better tonearm. And remember, the tone arm on the 1200 is NOT bad, it is not low quality. It's just dated, and has more resonant behavior than many of the modern tables will have. The tone arm is actually superior in quality and tolerances compared to the others in it's price range. It's only weakness is it's resonant behavior of the tube section and headshell system.

-Chris

The s-shaped arm I didn't think was so bad; but I suppose you have better insight here than I do.

What were your recommendations for a cart to match with the 1200's headshell, for home stereo use, not professional heavy duty/DJ scratching purposes? I believe you recommended a Denon?

 

[WmAx]

Yes; I recall you telling me this -- I just wanted to be certain I read it right! Is it common to find the 1200 in serious home rigs, for folks wanting to play their 45 and LP collections?

It is very common in 'serious' rigs, by most people's definition. But is that not an ambigous description ("serious')? LOL. Now, if you mean megabuck systems, then no. These people pay more than $500 for their speaker cable, so of course they want to spend many thousands at least, on ANY hardware piece, regardless if it's really better or not(psychogical factors are evidenced to be primary factors here).

Would this be KAB.com?

http://www.kabusa.com

Do you mean even if I went with the Onkyo A-9555 integrated amp, the power and processing stage won't be nearly as impressive -- even compared to the 1200?

It's more about your speakers and room acoustics, not your amplifier. You must realize, I am accustomed to 1st rate, world class speaker system performance. Perhaps the tone arm would be limiting on such a system. But I can't imagine it being much of an issue with Polk RT12 speakers.

What were your recommendations for a cart to match with the 1200's headshell, for home stereo use, not professional heavy duty/DJ scratching purposes? I believe you recommended a Denon?

The Denon Dl-110 and DL-160 cartridges are still objectively/technically, the best carts for the $$ available. No other manufacturer currently makes a comparable quality cart anywhere near this price range of which I'm aware, if your objective is flat/accurate response, lowest surface noise, superb tracking and stylus quality.

-Chris

 

[PearlcorderS701]

It is very common in 'serious' rigs, by most people's definition. But is that not an ambigous description ("serious')? LOL. Now, if you mean megabuck systems, then no. These people pay more than $500 for their speaker cable, so of course they want to spend many thousands at least, on ANY hardware piece, regardless if it's really better or not(psychogical factors are evidenced to be primary factors here).

Understandable. But what I was asking was more along the lines of not by definition, but of actual, physical setups...do you think, taking the megabuck systems out of the equation, there are audiophiles with the 1200 in their racks for vinyl playback sessions?

http://www.kabusa.com

Yeah; I found that after I posted to you -- thanks.

I am still confused as to how this site works; do you pick a "base" 1200, and then "add" accessories to it? What if all you want is a standard deck?

It's more about your speakers and room acoustics, not your amplifier. You must realize, I am accustomed to 1st rate, world class speaker system performance. Perhaps the tone arm would be limiting on such a system. But I can't imagine it being much of an issue with Polk RT12 speakers.

I'm not using this two-channel rig with the Polk RTi12's...they're in my HT room. I'm not sure which speakers I'll be using for the two-channel setup.

The Denon Dl-110 and DL-160 cartridges are still objectively/technically, the best carts for the $$ available. No other manufacturer currently makes a comparable quality cart anywhere near this price range of which I'm aware, if your objective is flat/accurate response, lowest surface noise, superb tracking and stylus quality.

-Chris

Well, I'd be looking for a "warm, audiophile" response from my LPs and 45s, so that's what I would need in a cart; I wouldn't need the more "harsh" approach of the DJ carts typically installed on the 1200s...so, the Denon 160 then? How much do these typically go for, and where can I find one?

 

[WmAx]

Understandable. But what I was asking was more along the lines of not by definition, but of actual, physical setups...do you think, taking the megabuck systems out of the equation, there are audiophiles with the 1200 in their racks for vinyl playback sessions?

Yes, there are, but they use higher performance tone arms on them, much higher performance. They also usually upgrade the main platter bearing and use an external PSU - though you don't really need to do that. The main issue is the tone arm.

I am still confused as to how this site works; do you pick a "base" 1200, and then "add" accessories to it? What if all you want is a standard deck?

Just pick the 1200 you want and click the dot under it to select it. Scroll down and click 'calculate costs', then click the BUY button and you will be taken to the checkout.

BTW, I would probably pay the extra $50 for the MK5 version. It uses LEDs instead of incandescent bulbs, so it will never be subject to having to change out bulbs in the future.

Well, I'd be looking for a "warm, audiophile" response from my LPs and 45s, so that's what I would need in a cart; I wouldn't need the more "harsh" approach of the DJ carts typically installed on the 1200s...so, the Denon 160 then? How much do these typically go for, and where can I find one?

I am not going to recommend carts that distort/color the sound. The recommended Denon's are just designed to be accurate. However, the DL-110 does have a slight bass (1dB or so) rise and slight treble reduction slope, leading to a more 'warm' sound as you put it.

Buy where you want. Price is $140(DL-110)/$180(DL-160) from any authorized Denon retailer.

-Chris

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Yes, there are, but they use higher performance tone arms on them, much higher performance. They also usually upgrade the main platter bearing and use an external PSU - though you don't really need to do that. The main issue is the tone arm.

Gotcha. I'd probably just stick with the stock arm for now, as I have been saying.

Just pick the 1200 you want and click the dot under it to select it. Scroll down and click 'calculate costs', then click the BUY button and you will be taken to the checkout.

BTW, I would probably pay the extra $50 for the MK5 version. It uses LEDs instead of incandescent bulbs, so it will never be subject to having to change out bulbs in the future.

I was going to ask you that next -- what exactly are all the 1200 models available currently? Is it just the 1200MK2 and MK5? Are there others? And the only difference between these are the LEDs?

I am not going to recommend carts that distort/color the sound. The recommended Denon's are just designed to be accurate. However, the DL-110 does have a slight bass (1dB or so) rise and slight treble reduction slope, leading to a more 'warm' sound as you put it.

Thank you. Would you be able to give me some install instruction? Once the cart and mount come, how does it install onto the 1200 headshell? Do I need to use the two screws? I know this isn't a P-Mount situation, so I just need to be kind of walked through this a bit.

So, the choices you'd recommend would be the DL-160 or DL-110?

What about any Audio-Technica...would you be able to recommend one of their abundance of carts?

Buy where you want. Price is $140(DL-110)/$180(DL-160) from any authorized Denon retailer.

-Chris

Thanks.

 

[WmAx]

I was going to ask you that next -- what exactly are all the 1200 models available currently? Is it just the 1200MK2 and MK5? Are there others? And the only difference between these are the LEDs?

If you want specific details, you will have to do your own research. But for a summary, the differences are only minor between the currently produced MK versions.

Thank you. Would you be able to give me some install instruction? Once the cart and mount come, how does it install onto the 1200 headshell? Do I need to use the two screws? I know this isn't a P-Mount situation, so I just need to be kind of walked through this a bit.

The table and cart have clear instructions. The Denon carts even come with a special little frame that holds the headshell of the table and has position markers so you can align it easily.

So, the choices you'd recommend would be the DL-160 or DL-110?

What about any Audio-Technica...would you be able to recommend one of their abundance of carts?

AT has no carts I will recommend as being anything special today for use in hi fi systems. I used to recommend the 440mla cart, as it was a good value(and much cheaper than the Denons, but not as good), but in the last year, AT changed the price from $90 to over $300. Yes. More than 300% MSRP price hike in a few months! Absurd. The cart certainly does not warrant the new price. At the lowest price retailers('only' about a 200 percent increase in price), it still costs a bit more than the Denon.

-Chris

 

[PearlcorderS701]

If you want specific details, you will have to do your own research. But for a summary, the differences are only minor between the currently produced MK versions.

I didn't need specific details, just generalized ones; is there a different "line" other than the "MK" models?

The table and cart have clear instructions. The Denon carts even come with a special little frame that holds the headshell of the table and has position markers so you can align it easily.

Thank you.

AT has no carts I will recommend as being anything special today for use in hi fi systems. I used to recommend the 440mla cart, as it was a good value(and much cheaper than the Denons, but not as good), but in the last year, AT changed the price from $90 to over $300. Yes. More than 300% price hike in a few months! Absurd. The cart certainly does not warrant the new price.

-Chris

Interesting; thanks for the info here. Is there no AT you would recommend for under $300?

 

[WmAx]

I didn't need specific details, just generalized ones; is there a different "line" other than the "MK" models?

No. Not in this decade. In the past, Technics had a substantial variety of players, and some very high end/performance units and extreme performance arm (EPA-500). Today it's just the SL-1200MK2 and above MK models.

-Chris

 

[PearlcorderS701]

No. Not in this decade. In the past, Technics had a substantial variety of players, and some very high end/performance units and extreme performance arm (EPA-500). Today it's just the SL-1200MK2 and above MK models.

-Chris

Wow...also interesting. Almost looks like a vintage-era Onkyo table that I've seen a few of...

 

[WmAx]

Wow...also interesting. Almost looks like a vintage-era Onkyo table that I've seen a few of...

Not at all. The base is actually just an optional part not even included. The motor unit/platter and tone arm are seperate parts sold as they are - the vintage wood base is not even part of it really. The wood base was a seperate 'optional' part, and not integral like regular tables. The main sections are all modular here. You can easily make a modern looking base. But the actual table/motor/platter unit and arm here, are some of the best. Easily at home on any grade of system; this is reference equipment.

The motor/platter unit has highest possible speed stability, extreme low resonance construction; very high quality kit.

The arm has finest mechanical construction quality in all ways, like a high quality watch. Very low resonance, tapered titanium nitride tube, bearing system of highest possible quality(polished ruby ball bearing systems) and the arm has rare feature, allowing any cartridge regardless of compliance to be used optimally, through a special adjustable cartridge compliance/interface dial in adjustment damping system.

Before I bought my current table system, I did try to seek down this tonearm for a while with failure.

-Chris

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Oh, I think I see now how the base really has a "drop in" area there, almost with an accessory-type flavor to it, as you're saying...interesting.

Still, it did remind me of the wooden-based Onkyo tables that were from the circa-1980's (and, presumably, earlier).

 

[TLS Guy]

How does the recorder then connect to the receiver or amp I get, now that a turntable is involved? Does the turntable go into the recorder's analog in's, and then the recorder's outs go to the receiver or amp's TAPE loop? Or does the turntable go directly into the receiver or amp's PHONO in? If the table goes into the PHONO input of the receiver/amp, how does its signal go to the CD recorder for recording?

If anyone could lend some insight here, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, fellow Audioholics.

The turntable will connect to the RIAA RCA phono inputs of your amp or preamp has them. If not you will need a phono preamp between your turntable and a line in on your preamp or integrated amp.

Now you need a unit that has a monitor tape loop to do what you want.

The tape out of your preamp or integrated amp goes to the analog record input of your TASCAM. The Tascam analog record out goes to the tape in of your pre amp or integrated amp.

You are much better off making wav. files on a computer, and then constructing and editing your CD and then burning. CD recorders are a PITA.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Thanks, TLS...

BTW, what year is your TL Type S?

I appreciate your suggestion in terms of not using my TASCAM recorder and doing it via computer, but that's simply not how I make my recordings; I use the standalone stereo gear like this.

The turntable will connect to the RIAA RCA phono inputs of your amp or preamp has them. If not you will need a phono preamp between your turntable and a line in on your preamp or integrated amp.

Okay; so the turntable will go into the PHONO input of the receiver or amp I am looking at (the Onkyo units I am considering, whether they're the receivers or the integrated amp all have PHONO inputs with the RIAA equalization, so I'm set as far as that).

Now you need a unit that has a monitor tape loop to do what you want.

Yes; indeed, the models I am looking at all have TAPE loops...

The tape out of your preamp or integrated amp goes to the analog record input of your TASCAM. The Tascam analog record out goes to the tape in of your pre amp or integrated amp.

Gotcha. Thank you.

 

[TLS Guy]

BTW, what year is your TL Type S?

It stands for Transmission Line Speaker. Mine are reverse tapered aperiodically damped lines.

I think it has insanity covered.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

It stands for Transmission Line Speaker. Mine are reverse tapered aperiodically damped lines.

I think it has insanity covered.

WHOOPS...I thought you were talking about an Acura TL Type S...

Forgive me...

 

[Cristofori]

AT has no carts I will recommend as being anything special today for use in hi fi systems. I used to recommend the 440mla cart, as it was a good value(and much cheaper than the Denons, but not as good), but in the last year, AT changed the price from $90 to over $300. Yes. More than 300% MSRP price hike in a few months! Absurd. The cart certainly does not warrant the new price. At the lowest price retailers('only' about a 200 percent increase in price), it still costs a bit more than the Denon.

-Chris

Not to argue with you WmAx, but as far as I know, the AT-440mla was never as cheap as $90 (I paid at least $120 for the previous model around 13 years ago), nor are they anywhere near the over $300 you mentioned, although it may have went up in price slightly (isn't everything?).

I bought the new AT-440mla around six months ago from http://www.turntableneedles.com/ on sale for $119! If you scroll down on the title page, you will see that they are now going for $165, which is around the average price some Hi-Fi shops are selling it for. The MSRP prices on Audio-Technica's website are wholly inaccurate from the real world prices that I've seen elsewhere.

PearlcorderS701, I'm sure those Denon Cartridges are excellent (and I'd like to try one myself), but the AT-440mla is also a great choice. I've been using them for years. They are excellent trackers, have shimmering highs, and unlike some other so called "Audiophile" cartridges I've tried, never had any inner groove distortion issues with them (which I hate), provided that the LP was in good playing condition.

They are still made in Japan to the same quality standards as always (the new mla model is probably even better), and you might be able to find them easier (including the replacment styli) than the Denon's. I think you would be happy with either choice.

One thing I can tell you... don't buy a Sumiko Oyster (which came with the Project Expression 3 TT that I USED to own), or any of the Rega brand cartridges. Both had unacceptable amounts of inner groove distortion, ridiculous considering that analog playback is supposed to be their main business!

WmAx, if the AT-440mla has indeed went up significantly in price, but has yet to trickle down to the retailers yet, then thanks for telling me. I will have to buy a few replacement styli for mine (currently going for around $60) while I still can!

 

[PearlcorderS701]

PearlcorderS701, I'm sure those Denon Cartridges are excellent (and I'd like to try one myself), but the AT-440mla is also a great choice. I've been using them for years. They are excellent trackers, have shimmering highs, and unlike some other so called "Audiophile" cartridges I've tried, never had any inner groove distortion issues with them (which I hate), provided that the LP was in good playing condition.

They are still made in Japan to the same quality standards as always (the new mla model is probably even better), and you might be able to find them easier (including the replacment styli) than the Denon's. I think you would be happy with either choice.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, 'Cris; I realized just now that you had addressed my TT questions in your reply to the other Chris...

I will consider both the Denon and AT as far as carts, thank you; right now I'm toying with the idea of going towards something less expensive than the Technics SL-1200 (perhaps their "consumer" level SL-BD20) and which comes with a cart already installed.

One thing I can tell you... don't buy a Sumiko Oyster (which came with the Project Expression 3 TT that I USED to own), or any of the Rega brand cartridges. Both had unacceptable amounts of inner groove distortion, ridiculous considering that analog playback is supposed to be their main business!

Thanks for the tip! I was considering going with a much more significant "step up" boutique brand like Sumiko, Rega or Pro-Ject for a table, but I always somehow come back to Technics in this regard.

But that's interesting about Sumiko's Oyster and the Regas...indeed, you wouldn't think analog perfectionists would let QC slide even on a cart. It reminds me of the Sony Blu-ray players, which were plagued with issues from the format's launch even though Sony was and still is one of the major proponents behind the BD Association...most of their machines didn't even support the new surround codecs until generations later, if I recall correctly, and they still don't get top marks from reviewers or magazines. In that way, you would think the major force behind the high definition format winner would get their **** together, right? And that's why it reminded me of what you're saying about those TT manufacturers.

At any rate, thanks for shootin' the **** about the turntables; please feel free to join in the conversation in my new thread about the other Technics I am considering!

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I appreciate your suggestion in terms of not using my TASCAM recorder and doing it via computer, but that's simply not how I make my recordings; I use the standalone stereo gear like this.

Same here. What makes or breaks a hi-fi transfer from LP to CD is the A/D converter. I have more confidence in the converters in my CD recorder than what’s in my sound card. I record to a so-called “music” CD-RW, dump to my computer, use Audacity to clean up some clicks and pops and eliminate background noise between tracks, then burn a “permanent” CD from the computer.

I also have more confidence in the phono pre-amps in vintage gear than what’s in late-model equipment. I’m using a 1977 vintage Marantz integrated amp with a 90’s Pioneer PDR-509 recorder. For playback sources I have a 90’s vintage Yamaha 3-head cassette deck and a 1977 budget Technics ’table with a Shure V15 Type 5-MR cartridge.

It was my standard practice back in the day to record my records straight to tape, and put the album away. That’s paid off great, as most of my records are near pristine. I’ve been able to make CD copies that nearly sound like original CD releases.

Good luck with your project! It’s a lot of work, but rewarding.

Wayne A. Pflughaupt