Power Conditioners

[son-yah-tive]

I was looking at Power Conditioners, a Panamax 4300. Since Emotiva says I have to use a separate wall outlet, can I use a conditioner to plug the XPA-5 into? Will this help to keep the voltage up on the amp? Or am I looking at Power Conditioners in the wrong way? Thanks for any input.

 

[chunkisagoonie]

Voltage doesn't really have anything to do with it, per se. IIRC, the 4300 doesn't do any voltage regulation anyway. Besides, most good electronics already have good voltage regulation built into their power supplies.

The reason why Emotiva is recommending that you plug your amp straight into the wall outlet is because power conditioners have transformers of their own that can limit the current the amp receives from the wall outlet. However, most power conditioners do have at least one non-conditioned outlet that bypasses the transformer (surge protection only) specifically for that purpose.

 

[son-yah-tive]

Voltage doesn't really have anything to do with it, per se. IIRC, the 4300 doesn't do any voltage regulation anyway. Besides, most good electronics already have good voltage regulation built into their power supplies.

The reason why Emotiva is recommending that you plug your amp straight into the wall outlet is because power conditioners have transformers of their own that can limit the current the amp receives from the wall outlet. However, most power conditioners do have at least one non-conditioned outlet that bypasses the transformer (surge protection only) specifically for that purpose.

Hi CHUNK. Thanks for the info. Can I still plug the XPA-5 into the 4300, to keep the the wires hidden, or do I still have to keep it plugged into a separate outlet? Even though the 4300 has a High Current plug-in for an AMP. Thanks again, for the quick response.

 

[sholling]

Voltage regulation depends on your home. I have a regulated power conditioner in my bedroom but I plug my receiver directly into the wall. Frankly the power conditioner can be an irritant but the power in my neighborhood is p-poor and it often kicks in to boost voltage. Every time it does it makes noise.

 

[son-yah-tive]

Voltage regulation depends on your home. I have a regulated power conditioner in my bedroom but I plug my receiver directly into the wall. Frankly the power conditioner can be an irritant but the power in my neighborhood is p-poor and it often kicks in to boost voltage. Every time it does it makes noise.

You gave something to think about. Maybe I don't really need a power conditioner.

 

[Kaz-maN]

Power conditioners are very effective with the right brand. I wasn't a believer in power conditioners until I tried one in home. Most power conditioners run in series, with richard gray pwr cond. though, they run in parallel. Anything on the same breaker in your home will benefit from the conditioner. Your tv will get a better picture, and you will get better sound from your audio equipment. I'm not a technician by any means, nor can I explain the details. Its one of those things you have to see to believe, or hear in this case.

 

[son-yah-tive]

Power conditioners are very effective with the right brand. I wasn't a believer in power conditioners until I tried one in home. Most power conditioners run in series, with richard gray pwr cond. though, they run in parallel. Anything on the same breaker in your home will benefit from the conditioner. Your tv will get a better picture, and you will get better sound from your audio equipment. I'm not a technician by any means, nor can I explain the details. Its one of those things you have to see to believe, or hear in this case.

I'll look up the Richard Gray. Never heard of them, might be good timing.

 

[highfigh]

Voltage regulation depends on your home. I have a regulated power conditioner in my bedroom but I plug my receiver directly into the wall. Frankly the power conditioner can be an irritant but the power in my neighborhood is p-poor and it often kicks in to boost voltage. Every time it does it makes noise.

If it makes noise and boosts the voltage, it has a problem and should be replaced. Over-voltage is bad for most electronics and spikes are particularly bad for microprocessors.

 

[highfigh]

I'll look up the Richard Gray. Never heard of them, might be good timing.

Furman makes some that do the same thing but don't cost nearly as much. They do, however, make power equipment for large venue music shows, which often include about 100KW of amplification and a lot of lighting control.

 

[sholling]

If it makes noise and boosts the voltage, it has a problem and should be replaced. Over-voltage is bad for most electronics and spikes are particularly bad for microprocessors.

It's supposed to boost voltage when the house's voltage drops below 100v. That happens a few times a week, occasionally a few times a day. My UPSs kick in and boost voltage to my computers as well.

BTW this can happen in the middle of the night when nothing else is running as well as during the day.

 

[highfigh]

It's supposed to boost voltage when the house's voltage drops below 100v. That happens a few times a week, occasionally a few times a day. My UPSs kick in and boost voltage to my computers as well.

BTW this can happen in the middle of the night when nothing else is running as well as during the day.

Do you live near a large factory that uses a tremendous amount of power? Look at the cables where they connect to your house- if they have multiple splices, especially on the neutral, have the power company come out to repair it.

Where are you located?

 

[sholling]

Do you live near a large factory that uses a tremendous amount of power? Look at the cables where they connect to your house- if they have multiple splices, especially on the neutral, have the power company come out to repair it.

Where are you located?

I live in a 1994 vintage single family home in Hemet California. It's a small town roughly 100 miles SE of downtown Los Angeles and roughly 40 miles west of Palm Springs. About 15 miles from the nearest freeway. There is no industry within 5 miles of me. We just have crappy power and I suspect I'm at the very end of the local grid.

 

[highfigh]

I live in a 1994 vintage single family home in Hemet California. It's a small town roughly 100 miles SE of downtown Los Angeles and roughly 40 miles west of Palm Springs. About 15 miles from the nearest freeway. There is no industry within 5 miles of me. We just have crappy power and I suspect I'm at the very end of the local grid.

There's also no reason your power should drop that low. Check into the requirements of the power company- many are required to be within 10% of 120VAC and it sounds like they aren't.

If I were you, I would look into have an the voltage checked outside of the house and compare it to what you have inside. This is unacceptable, IMO and I don't know how your appliances and other devices last more than a couple of years. Also, if I were you, I would talk to my neighbors to find out if anyone else has the same problems.

Hemet, eh? I've been there- my cousin lives in Canyon Lake and works at the Perris High School. SHe lived in Menefee, too.

Any chance of going off of the grid?

 

[sholling]

Thanks. I don't want to hijack the thread but I called today to have my power checked.

 

[darien87]

Don't bother plugging your XPA-3 into a power conditioner. Emotiva builds tons of protection into their amps already, so the marginal benefit you MIGHT get with a power conditioner, will probably be mitigated by the limit on power it will let your amp draw. There's a reason why Emotiva says not to do this. Listen to the manufacturer.

 

[son-yah-tive]

Don't bother plugging your XPA-3 into a power conditioner. Emotiva builds tons of protection into their amps already, so the marginal benefit you MIGHT get with a power conditioner, will probably be mitigated by the limit on power it will let your amp draw. There's a reason why Emotiva says not to do this. Listen to the manufacturer.

Hi Darien. I called, and they told me it won't hurt. As long as I plug into a High Current Outlet. I'd like to straighten out the look of the wires plugged into the wall, if I can.

 

[highfigh]

Thanks. I don't want to hijack the thread but I called today to have my power checked.

Per your PM, if they replaced some cabling, they definitely found a problem because they can't afford to spend money on anything that's unnecessary.

I read Emotiva's product descriptions and I think they recommend using a dedicated circuit for their amps once they get to a certain level, which would be about 80% of circuit capacity. A 15A circuit is equivalent to 1800W and if your amp would draw 1440W, you would be pushing the limits because as current flow causes the a conductor to get warmer, its resistance of the conductor increases and causes the voltage to drop. Since P=IE, if the power is to remain constant, a drop in the voltage must cause an increase in current, creating a vicious cycle of heat, voltage drop and current increases. Add any other equipment to that receptacle and circuit- it speeds up the process.

This is moot if you don't crank it up too high but with any high power amp, I would add a dedicated 20-25A circuit. If you can't run new wires, talk to a good electrician about reconfiguring that circuit for 230V- the problem with this would be that none of the other receptacles on that circuit would be available for 120V use because all 120VAC circuits must have a hot, neutral and ground. Emotiva amps can all run on 230VAC and will adapt to either voltage, automatically.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

The power conditioners, regardless of the merits and disadvantages, are not the issue. You're approaching this from the wrong end.

Emotiva wants you to dedicate a 15 amp circuit to the amplifier because it's capable of asking for all that outlet can deliver when running 5 channels at full power.

The issue, in other words, is power delivery from the AC socket to the amp.

No power conditioner will fix that issue; some make it worse (they use power themselves, leaving less for your amp).

Exactly how much power your dedicated line can deliver is not something we can determine by conjecture, or by referencing the standard charts. It's partly dependent on the power your utility can deliver consistently (ie when everyone is cooking supper at 6:00 PM, the utility has trouble delivering full current and voltage to everyone's home), it's partly dependent on the specifics of your home's wiring (ie assuming the utility is doing a great job, you have about 1800 watts available at the breaker. Every foot of wiring between that breaker and your AC outlet reduces the available power at the outlet) and it's partly dependent on the quality of the wiring and the age of the home (connections degrade over time; the result is less power available at the outlet).

To know for sure, you need to measure the power delivered at the outlet.

However, nobody actually does that. Normally we use math to determine the theoretical amount of power you should be getting, hope we've taken all the variables into consideration, and go with that, with the idea in the back of your mind that the actual power delivered is going to be something different from our calculations, but we hope not much.

The Emotiva wants (according to another post in this thread) 1440 Watts @ with a 120/60 circuit (US/Canada standard), which is definitely on the high side. Regardless of the quality of the power that can actually arrive at the outlet, this is essentially all one 15 amp circuit can deliver*.

At the meter/main breaker box: 120V x 15 Amps = 1800 watts
But, appliances normally ask for a maximum of 13 Amps, due to a safety margin to account for your home wiring and it's losses = 1560 watts
If your utility normally delivers 117 volts, that becomes = 1521 watts
Many utilities in the US often deliver as low as 110 volts = 1430 watts

Now we see where the 1440 watt demand comes from. It's what you can typically expect from a utility on a regular basis, when there are no issues; in other words when the utility is capable of meeting it's peak demand. Many utilities are not, and power issues are the result.

In practical terms, this may not be a huge issue to worry about ... normally a HT setup does not demand full power from all 5 channels, for example, so the current demand will be manageable, even if you like to watch Blu-Rays "on 10" when the entire nation is baking pizzas in the oven.

But, that's why Emotiva wants you to dedicate one 15 amp circuit to the amp. Note too that it's common and normal to have more than one AC outlet per 15 amp circuit. You should make sure other stuff is not plugged into any other AC outlets on the same breaker.

You can check by turning the breaker that monitors that particular outlet off, and going around to see if anything else turns off as well. A small desk lamp is a handy thing to drag around with this exercise, to test outlets that have nothing plugged into them.

Once you figure out which outlets are on that circuit, you can then make sure nothing else is plugged into them.

Again, in practical terms, it's not always possible to dedicate one circuit to anything ... you may find the kid's room's outlets are on the same circuit as your amp, for example.

Your next issue, besides the above, is making sure there is a second AC outlet on a separate circuit available in the same room, or area, as the rest of your HT setup. They need to plug into something too.

Power conditioners are not going to somehow make more power available to that outlet, or anything connected to that outlet. Anything that acts as a regenerator ("corrects" the sine wave and frequency) will use power itself, leaving less for your amp (in fact, a regenerator and a power amp are very similar devices, circuit-wise).

Similarly, what are called UPS's by the consumer computer resellers (they're not actual UPS's ... "real" ones run the show when the power company is on fire and all your neighbors are lights-out ... for weeks) add noise to the AC line, while using power themselves. They are not always beneficial to HiFi or Video equipment.

Now you know why many HT setups go to the trouble of having two dedicated circuits installed by an electrician. If there is room in your home electrical setup, and you use high powered amplification, you may as well make them 20-amp circuits while you're at it. Doesn't really cost much more over 15 A circuits, and you can insure adequate delivery of juice.

* As in "deliver safely". The breaker is supposed to protect the house, but the breaker doesn't measure power delivered. It measures how hot the circuit is getting. Breakers wear out, they trip at different levels in short succession, they fail completely. "Normal" people don't decide, after Aunt Emma drops $1000 from her Will into your bank account, to replace all the aging breakers in the box; just don't expect them to be in perfect condition, and to trip at exactly 1800 watts, is all. Leave yourself some room there.

The power to your house, and to the AC outlet, on the other hand, is a dutiful slave, and will try it's best to deliver what you ask for, even if that's "too much". Ask for 20 amps ... it will deliver it ... for a while. Either the breaker senses the impending fire, and trips, or there is a fire.

I mention this because it's a situation that can develop if you don't dedicate a 15 amp circuit to the Emotiva, and do like to play Blu-Rays on "10", while your daughter is curling her hair via an outlet in her room connected to the same circuit.