Dynamic range of vinyl

[TLS Guy]

In the rock world and pop world for sure, there are an over abundance of idiots with the loudness war raging. What I find so ironic is that the CDs mastered by the marketing mavens have way less dynamic range in them compared to their vinyl counterpart despite the fact that the CD medium is capable of being way more dynamic.

Once thing CDs will never ever replace is the artwork of album covers or the involvment of actually prepping the medium for play.

I agree a good LP jacket can be a thing of great beauty.

In the classical world the full dynamic of the CD medium is pushed to the limit. There has been no rush to produce classical LPs again. There are some to placate the loony crowd. I certainly would not make a big push to produce LP versions of my CDs, and I think that goes for the vast majority of people who listen to classical music. So I think this whole issue is due to idiots in the pop culture. I have to say I have never had any affinity with those genres. In fact they have convinced me that civilization is not on a linear trajectory, and that in a number of ares it is the wrong way.

Classical music also really lost its way, for most of the twentieth century. As Sir Thomas Beecham remarked, "not one nth. part of it will survive." Most of it is already forgotten and a footnote to hubris. Actually beautiful music was being written through most of what I have called The Age of Ugliness. I'm glad that the composers who had the courage to rebel against the intellectual university crowd are now getting a hearing. There are now a generation of composers growing up who do not empty concert halls, like most of their teachers and fathers. This gives me great hope for the future.

As far as I can tell the pop culture is still firmly anchored in the Age of Ugliness on many levels. May be it will also make a transition into the new Age of Enlightenment.

 

[highfigh]

OK, thanks for that info.

I guess then that this tells me that most built in Phono pre-amps leave something to be desired.

Can anybody recommend a relativity inexpensive phono preamp that can put out as much as the average CD/DVD output?

It's not that they inherently leave anything to be desired, it's more an issue of phono cartridges not having standardized electrical properties. The phono preamp needs to be a happy medium in order to work with a majority of mainstream cartridges. More gain in that stage also means more noise.

 

[Cristofori]

TLS Guy said: "I agree a good LP jacket can be a thing of great beauty.

In the classical world the full dynamic of the CD medium is pushed to the limit. There has been no rush to produce classical LPs again. There are some to placate the loony crowd. I certainly would not make a big push to produce LP versions of my CDs, and I think that goes for the vast majority of people who listen to classical music."

Interesting thoughts, but on a practical side there is a boatload of excellent classical vinyl and out there for dirt cheap if you make the effort to find it, which appeals greatly to a music lover like me on a budget (although I still have SOME standards) in these times.

The complete orchestral music of Franz Liszt (Vols. 1 & 2) on two beautiful EMI/import box sets conducted by Kurt Masur in pristine near mint condition I recently picked up for $2 each can start to sound pretty damn good at those prices!

Many other LP's out there are obscure and/or OOP, and have about as much of a snowballs chance in hell of being reissued on CD or even appearing as downloads online. It's a great way to explore new music and performances one might never hear anywhere else.

As a matter of fact, I can't imagine how somebody who is seriously into classical and other non-popular (nowadays) music can ignore the LP entirely, and I've been surprised by the amount of new classical vinyl that is being reissued by specialist producers out there. I myself have had some fairly good luck in selling used classical vinyl online (at modest prices), so some listeners must still care.

Sound quality and other LP issues and arguments aside, I continue to remain fascinated by the medium, and will probably continue to buy them as long as they remain available in collectible condition at reasonable prices.

 

[TLS Guy]

Interesting thoughts, but on a practical side there is a boatload of excellent classical vinyl and out there for dirt cheap if you make the effort to find it, which appeals greatly to a music lover like me on a budget (although I still have SOME standards) in these times.

The complete orchestral music of Franz Liszt (Vols. 1 & 2) on two beautiful EMI/import box sets conducted by Kurt Masur in pristine near mint condition I just recently picked up for $2 each can start to sound pretty damn good at those prices!

Many other LP's out there are obscure and/or OOP, and have about as much of a snowballs chance in hell of being reissued on CD or even appearing as downloads online. It's a great way to explore new music and performances one might never hear anywhere else.

As a matter of fact, I can't imagine how somebody who is seriously into classical and other non-popular (nowadays) musical styles can ignore the LP entirely, and I've been surprised by the amount of new classical vinyl that is being reissued by specialist producers out there. I myself have had some fairly good luck in selling used classical vinyl online (at modest prices), so some listeners must still care.

Sound quality and other LP issues and arguments aside, I continue to remain fascinated by the medium, and will probably continue to buy them as long as they remain available in collectible condition at reasonable prices.

Don't get me wrong, those are all good reasons for playing LPs, and I still buy used ones occasionally, but I have to really know the history. I have a large LP collection and so I still spin a lot of vinyl, and reel to reel tapes for that matter. Please check the link on my signature.

My only pint is that it is not correct that LP is a superior playback medium to CD. That is simply not true.

 

[Cristofori]

My only pint is that it is not correct that LP is a superior playback medium to CD. That is simply not true.

Agreed, in most cases. There are some LP's out there that I prefer over CD sound, but this is not because of any inherent flaws in the CD medium itself, but because of poor remastering, or other reasons I can't explain. This is relatively rare however. An excellently produced CD can trump even the best LP with the right equipment, and even if it was true that the LP was superior, this advantage wouldn't last for ever, because the things wear out after time, while the CD will remain perfect until (whenever?) it dies.

I also have a theory or belief that the "warm-smooth" sounds people hear from LP's, which may be lossy distortion and/or other flaws, can actually benefit some recordings. Or it could just be that some of us just have flawed or damaged hearing?

Sometimes, violins or other instruments and voices can be really rough on the ears in certain venues, even if the recording is accurate. Some LP's can make these rough passages more enjoyable, and contrary to what many say, I've found that musical accuracy and neutrality is not ALWAYS a good thing!

 

[TLS Guy]

Agreed, in most cases. There are some LP's out there that I prefer over CD sound, but this is not because of any inherent flaws in the CD medium itself, but because of poor remastering, or other reasons I can't explain. This is relatively rare however.

I also have a theory or belief that the "warm-smooth" sounds people hear from LP's, which may be lossy distortion and/or other flaws, can actually benefit some recordings. Or it could just be thst some of us just have flawed or damaged hearing?

Sometimes, violins or other instruments and voices can be really rough on the ears in certain venues, even if the recording is accurate. Some LP's can make these rough passages more enjoyable, and contrary to what some say, I've found that musical accuracy and neutrality is not ALWAYS a good thing!

Cartridges differ in response. Cheaper ones tend to have HF roll off. Many mastering engineers roll off the top end to make tracking easier. A lot of expensive mc cartridges have a rising high end.

I have long felt that a lot of this strident digital sound nonsense, comes from the fact that most loudspeakers are poor, most I consider in the very poor category. Top end roll off helps. Very few loudspeakers can do a credible job of reproducing strings accurately. This is probably the hardest of all to get right. A rolled off high end on the front end helps a lot of compromised speakers. I think this is part of the tube vogue also.

 

[Cristofori]

I have long felt that a lot of this strident digital sound nonsense, comes from the fact that most loudspeakers are poor, most I consider in the very poor category. Top end roll off helps. Very few loudspeakers can do a credible job of reproducing strings accurately. This is probably the hardest of all to get right. A rolled off high end on the front end helps a lot of compromised speakers. I think this is part of the tube vogue also.

For me, I've found that choral voices are the hardest to make sound right, not the piano or other things audiophiles typically complain about.

All but the very best choral LP's have high amounts of distortion in the upper ranges, sometimes bordering on the unlistenable, and even some CD's are lacking in this department. Very seldom do either sound like the live performances I've heard. Of course, this is sometimes the fault of the poor acoustics of the venue itself, and not the always the recording.

If I could build an audio system that could do justice to most choral music, everything else would be a cakewalk.

 

[TLS Guy]

For me, I've found that choral voices are the hardest to make sound right, not the piano or other things audiophiles typically complain about.

All but the very best choral LP's have high amounts of distortion in the upper ranges, sometimes bordering on the unlistenable, and even some CD's are lacking in this department. Very seldom do either sound like the live performances I've heard.

If I could build an audio system that could do justice to most choral music, everything else would be a cakewalk.

Yes, I did not dare mention that. You are correct choral music and Opera are the top of the mountain as a stress test for speakers. That is why I always include choral music in speaker evaluations. I will only generally include opera, in evaluation of what portend to be the finest of systems. Otherwise the results sour me on the speaker and it is hard to be objective. I have a huge selection of choral music.

The reasons for this are complex, but it is possible to reproduce this music satisfactorily. I can reproduce most choral LPs fine. CDs are very rarely a problem, in fact I can't think of a choral CD that is a problem in my collection. If you are having trouble then your speakers are the limiting factor most likely. What speakers are you using?

I think this problem severely compromises the acceptance of choral music and opera especially.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... As flawed as vinyl maybe, its immensely more satisyfying to me than the CD experience . No harm done Alex

Great. Enjoyment is it, no matter what. We all enjoy different things in life, as it should be. Infinite Diversity in that many combinations.

 

[Cristofori]

Yes, I did not dare mention that. You are correct choral music and Opera are the top of the mountain as a stress test for speakers. That is why I always include choral music in speaker evaluations. I will only generally include opera, in evaluation of what portend to be the finest of systems. Otherwise the results sour me on the speaker and it is hard to be objective. I have a huge selection of choral music.

The reasons for this are complex, but it is possible to reproduce this music satisfactorily. I can reproduce most choral LPs fine. CDs are very rarely a problem, in fact I can't think of a choral CD that is a problem in my collection. If you are having trouble then your speakers are the limiting factor most likely. What speakers are you using?

I think this problem severely compromises the acceptance of choral music and opera especially.

The speakers I have at the moment are nothing to right home about, but they are only temporary. However, I've had better speakers in the past (not high-end full range) that sounded great with most types of music but could not always reproduce the live choral performances I've heard.

The cartridge/stylus I'm using is the excellent Audio-Technica AT-440mla, which is the only modestly priced cartridge I've tried so far that doesn't cause unacceptable inner-groove distortion. It also supposedly gives a more "CD like sound" with it's shimmering highs, which some audiophiles complain about but is fine by me. Some LP's can use some brightening up!

When I said that some CD's were lacking with choral music, I don't mean in a distorted kind of way like on a bad LP, but the voices are not always as clear or understandable as I'd like them to be, or they sound thin, washed out and harsh.

I believe this is the fault producers or the venue itself, with less than desirable acoustics, or a combination of both. I've noticed this in certain recordings. Like most of the choral recordings on the Telarc label with Robert Shaw. The Atlanta Symphony Hall where these were recorded has shown to my hearing to be highly inferior to other venues. If you listen to some other Telarc recordings done elsewhere, they sound fantastic, so it's not the fault of the producers.

The New York Symphony Hall, where many great and famous recordings were made is another lackluster venue, along with the Kingsway Hall in London. I have some Philips/L'oiseau Lyre Baroque CD's recorded at Kingsway that make my ears bleed unless I tone down the volume or up turn the bass. The "period instruments" made it sound even harsher, not that I have anything against those if recorded properly.

These are some of the examples where I've found that an LP version, with it's rolled off highs and "warm-smooth" distortion or whatever can actually sound better. They hide the flaws that the CD's would otherwise reveal.

I am in no way slighting the great musicians and artists who recorded at these places, it's not their fault. It's just a shame that some of my favorite recordings couldn't have been done elsewhere.

There are of course other venues and record labels that get it right. Harmonia Mundi recordings are some of the most natural and consistently beautiful I've ever heard, both on CD and LP. The Meyerson Symphony Hall in Dallas, Texas where I lived for five years has outstanding acoustics, and I've seen that the British label Hyperion has made several recordings there.

Strange how I never would have dreamed that a classical concert hall down south in Texas would have some of the best acoustics I've ever heard.

 

[TLS Guy]

The speakers I have at the moment are nothing to right home about, but they are only temporary. However, I've had better speakers in the past (not high-end full range) that sounded great with most types of music but could not always reproduce the live choral performances I've heard.

The cartridge/stylus I'm using is the excellent Audio-Technica AT-440mla, which is the only modestly priced cartridge I've tried so far that doesn't cause unacceptable inner-groove distortion. It also supposedly gives a more "CD like sound" with it's shimmering highs, which some audiophiles complain about but is fine by me. Some LP's can use some brightening up!

When I said that some CD's were lacking with choral music, I don't mean in a distorted kind of way like on a bad LP, but the voices are not always as clear or understandable as I'd like them to be, or they sound thin, washed out and harsh.

I believe this is the fault producers or the venue itself, with less than desirable acoustics, or a combination of both. I've noticed this in certain recordings. Like most of the choral recordings on the Telarc label with Robert Shaw. The Atlanta Symphony Hall where these were recorded has shown to my hearing to be highly inferior to other venues. If you listen to some other Telarc recordings done elsewhere, they sound fantastic, so it's not the fault of the producers.

The New York Symphony Hall, where many great and famous recordings were made is another lackluster venue, along with the Kingsway Hall in London. I have some Philips/L'oiseau Lyre Baroque CD's recorded at Kingsway that make my ears bleed unless I tone down the volume or up turn the bass. The "period instruments" made it sound even harsher, not that I have anything against those if recorded properly.

These are some of the examples where I've found that an LP version, with it's rolled off highs and "warm-smooth" distortion or whatever can actually sound better. They hide the flaws that the CD's would otherwise reveal.

I am in no way slighting the great musicians and artists who recorded at these places, it's not their fault. It's just a shame that some of my favorite recordings couldn't have been done elsewhere.

There are of course other venues and record labels that get it right. Harmonia Mundi recordings are some of the most natural and consistently beautiful I've ever heard, both on CD and LP. The Meyerson Symphony Hall in Dallas, Texas where I lived for five years has outstanding acoustics, and I've seen that the British label Hyperion has made several recordings there.

Strange how I never would have dreamed that a classical concert hall down south in Texas would have some of the best acoustics I've ever heard.

If that is your taste, you had better start a speaker fund and be patient.

The Kingsway Hall London had a wonderful acoustic until its "restoration" and the modern acoustic engineers ruined it. However I don't think the companies have used it much since.

The Apostles and the Kingdom by Elgar, under Boult were recorded there and are among the finest recordings I know. I often use them as reference.

I must say I don't object to the Shaw Dallas recordings either, and would cite the Verdi Requiem under Shaw on Telarc as a fine piece of recording.

 

[Cristofori]

If that is your taste, you had better start a speaker fund and be patient.

The Kingsway Hall London had a wonderful acoustic until its "restoration" and the modern acoustic engineers ruined it. However I don't think the companies have used it much since.

The Apostles and the Kingdom by Elgar, under Boult were recorded there and are among the finest recordings I know. I often use them as reference.

I must say I don't object to the Shaw Dallas recordings either, and would cite the Verdi Requiem under Shaw on Telarc as a fine piece of recording.

The Verdi/Shaw recording is an exception, I forgot about that one. The Messiah and Bach B Minor Mass with Sylvia McNair he did however have that thin "distant" sound to them, among a few others as well. Probably the fault of producers then.

The B Minor Mass is particularly frustrating, as it is one of my favorites. In the case of the Messiah, I have to turn the volume up on that one far greater than I usual to bring it up to the same sound level as most other recordings. Something went wrong here!

Speaking of McNair, the Mozart Great Mass she did with Gardiner (also my favorite) was recorded at the Kingways Hall I believe (I may be wrong), and that otherwise beautiful recording sounds somewhat thin and shrill. That other Famous Mozart choral piece, the Requiem with Hogwood and Kirkby was definitely recorded there, and that has the same thin shrill, distant sound that the Great Mass with Gardiner has.

Yes, my speakers are lacking and I'm working on getting some much better ones. A sub woofer might help ad some warmth also. But when I see the same suspects pop up again and again with recordings that leave me with something to be desired, I have to question their acoustics or their producing teams.

 

[TLS Guy]

The Verdi/Shaw recording is an exception, I forgot about that one. The Messiah and Bach B Minor Mass with Sylvia McNair he did however have that thin "distant" sound to them, among a few others as well. Probably the fault of producers then.

The B Minor Mass is particularly frustrating, as it is one of my favorites. In the case of the Messiah, I have to turn the volume up on that one far greater than I usual to bring it up to the same sound level as most other recordings. Something went wrong here!

Speaking of McNair, the Mozart Great Mass she did with Gardiner (also my favorite) was recorded at the Kingways Hall I believe (I may be wrong), and that otherwise beautiful recording sounds somewhat thin and shrill. That other Famous Mozart choral piece, the Requiem with Hogwood and Kirkby was definitely recorded there, and that has the same thin shrill, distant sound that the Great Mass with Gardiner has.

Yes, my speakers are lacking and I'm working on getting some much better ones. A sub woofer might help ad some warmth also. But when I see the same suspects pop up again and again with recordings that leave me with something to be desired, I have to question their acoustics or their producing teams.

Something is wrong with your set up. I have those Mozart recordings and they are excellent, especially the Hogwood Requiem.

 

[jostenmeat]

Interesting thoughts, but on a practical side there is a boatload of excellent classical vinyl and out there for dirt cheap if you make the effort to find it, which appeals greatly to a music lover like me on a budget (although I still have SOME standards) in these times.

It's a valid point, but classical music has been for a very long time the most affordable to purchase on CD. Sure, there are imports, labels known for Renassiance works, or even 20th century works, that are more expensive, but as a whole, they've been the most affordable, at least for a very, very long time.

As a matter of fact, I can't imagine how somebody who is seriously into classical and other non-popular (nowadays) music can ignore the LP entirely . . .

You just met one. The name's jostenmeat. In fact, all I did for a number of years was classical music. The only (former or present) professional classical musicians that I can think of who have a vinyl collection are both over 65 years old, save for one person (and he doesn't even know what he's buying half the time; it's just cheap, that's all). TLS Guy helped me find a TT for one of these retired gentlemen, with doctoral in conducting from Cincinnati. We have swapped CDs, never vinyl though.

Sometimes, violins or other instruments and voices can be really rough on the ears in certain venues, even if the recording is accurate. Some LP's can make these rough passages more enjoyable, and contrary to what many say, I've found that musical accuracy and neutrality is not ALWAYS a good thing!

Can you name any particular recordings? Thanks.

For me, I've found that choral voices are the hardest to make sound right, not the piano or other things audiophiles typically complain about.

I find that piano is more difficult to reproduce. Not including operas, outside of 20th century works, the combined tessituras of the SATB is not very expanded. In fact, before the Romantic (Baroque, Classical) I bet it was very rare that it even broke 3 octaves.

The piano is known to be the most "balanced", as musicians might say, of all the instruments, or most consistent in timbre, across its formidable range. The best speakers I've heard, as far as what this noob dubs as "consistency of timbre across its range", is B&W, IMO which I've never owned, but was very close to purchasing. The percussive attacks of the piano are not easy for speakers either. After all, it is a percussive instrument.

All but the very best choral LP's have high amounts of distortion in the upper ranges, sometimes bordering on the unlistenable, and even some CD's are lacking in this department. Very seldom do either sound like the live performances I've heard. Of course, this is sometimes the fault of the poor acoustics of the venue itself, and not the always the recording.

Or your own room. After all, it's over half what you hear.

If I could build an audio system that could do justice to most choral music, everything else would be a cakewalk.

Have you tried listening to choral works on electrostats?

The Messiah and Bach B Minor Mass with Sylvia McNair he did however have that thin "distant" sound to them, among a few others as well. Probably the fault of producers then.

I think I know what you mean. I believe I have come to prefer minimalist micing. Sometimes (and I don't know ANYTHING about micing techniques), the "spectacular" stuff sometimes sounds contrived in the spatial sense. This has been a recent evolution for me in my budding audiophile states (even though I have multiple degrees in classical music performance). Some thanks are in order to TLS.

Here is a blurb that TLS has posted about Atlanta/Shaw and minimalist micing.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=492461&postcount=12

You also mentioned Gardiner, Cristofori. He has a post (from the same thread) in response to my query about his cycle.

I mention Gardiner (while I also think particularly of a Brahms Piano Concerto 2 recording I have on DG, also a relatively recent purchase), because of the forward and crystalline nature of many details, but that the space is not always convincing. I think the Gardiner is significantly better recorded spatially than my Pollini recording, from what I remember.

That is interesting you mention the Gardner. I have quite a few of his recordings but no the Beethoven. Archiv have been using a multi mic technique, but using a digital system to correct the phase and time problems between the microphones.

I have found those recordings to be a significant improvement over standard multi mic recordings, but not as good minimalist ones.

The actual object in view was to improve the results from typical speakers and still keep guys like me happy. I vote it a partial success.

 

[Alex2507]

(and he doesn't even know what he's buying half the time; it's just cheap, that's all)

I have been besmirched!
Actually you're being kind by saying 'half the time'.

 

[Cristofori]

It's a valid point, but classical music has been for a very long time the most affordable to purchase on CD. Sure, there are imports, labels known for Renassiance works, or even 20th century works, that are more expensive, but as a whole, they've been the most affordable, at least for a very, very long time.

I'd have to disagree here. Until somewhat recently, classical CD's have been quite expensive actually, and the really good and interesting ones that I like to buy still are. Sure, there are now lots of excellent budget reissues, box sets, and compilations out there for cheap by comparison but even these can start to add up if your a typical classical hoarder like myself, and many of us are. I've also noticed that prices at some places seem to be going as well. I remember Archivmusic.coms prices were cheaper in the past, but I'm not sure about this.

One thing I do know, is that the classical genre is pretty much the only one where lots of excellent quality LP's can still be easily found for very cheap, minus the rare "collectibles" or what have you. Try finding original decent sounding Rock/Pop/Jazz LP's in near mint condition anywhere near those prices, and you'd be out of luck. They are all now highly collectible and sought after, and out of my price ranges, if I even wanted them.

ou just met one. The name's jostenmeat. In fact, all I did for a number of years was classical music. The only (former or present) professional classical musicians that I can think of who have a vinyl collection are both over 65 years old, save for one person (and he doesn't even know what he's buying half the time; it's just cheap, that's all). TLS Guy helped me find a TT for one of these retired gentlemen, with doctoral in conducting from Cincinnati. We have swapped CDs, never vinyl though

Then you may missing out on lot of very interesting stuff and some obscure performances. Can today's classical fan live without them? Sure, but the amount of composers, recordings and music I've discovered over the years on LP has been of incalculable value to me. And if I ever find anything I really like on one of these LP's, I can and sometimes do get it on CD if available. I might have been otherwise reluctant to shell out $10-$20 for a new CD of music I had no idea if I would like or not.

I still manage to sell quite a few classical LP's on Audiogon, and some of the people I've seen at the classical record shows (we have one every year close to Chicago) were not all old men waiting to keel over any minute, many of them were younger Asians, who seem to have an insatiable appetite for classical music. I wish my own people still did. I myself am only 37, and have been collecting classical LP's for 10 years. Yes, we are a very small minority, but so are classical music fans in general compared to most everything else.

I enjoy both LP and CD. I even have some cassettes and a small but nice collection of 78rpms, which I hope to get going someday. I don't understand why that has to be a problem for some people, it is the definition of what it means to be an audiophile in my book, not somebody who only listens to ultra-expensive equipment and/or recordings.

Also, I've found that what a musician does or does not listen to or use is not always a good guide to live by. Ironically, the musicians I've met had some of the worst, poorly set up audio systems I've ever seen. They seem indifferent to the whole thing, as they spend much of their time playing music rather then listening to it.

Can you name any particular recordings? Thanks.

I just discussed some of those with TLS Guy on my previous posts. My point was that sometimes, accuracy in a recording is not always a good thing depending on how and where it was made, and CD can reveal the flaws in this more than an LP, which otherwise might colorize or soften the recording to make it sound better. This is relatively rare however, and I'm not saying that LP generally sounds better than CD. Most do not.

I find that piano is more difficult to reproduce. Not including operas, outside of 20th century works, the combined tessituras of the SATB is not very expanded. In fact, before the Romantic (Baroque, Classical) I bet it was very rare that it even broke 3 octaves.

On a technical side, piano may be harder to get right, whatever right for that instrument may be, but I myself have been satisfied with most piano recordings, it's the choral stuff I've had the most trouble with.

The piano is known to be the most "balanced", as musicians might say, of all the instruments, or most consistent in timbre, across its formidable range. The best speakers I've heard, as far as what this noob dubs as "consistency of timbre across its range", is B&W, IMO which I've never owned, but was very close to purchasing. The percussive attacks of the piano are not easy for speakers either. After all, it is a percussive instrument.

Yes, B&W are excellent speakers, at least for classical. I've had my eye on getting a pair of either the CM5 bookshelfs or the floorstanders. I can always get a sub later to make it full range.

Or your own room. After all, it's over half what you hear.

That's something I can't do much about, nor am I really willing to at the moment. I haven't always stayed at the same place anyway, and may be moving again in the not to distant future.

There are some imperfections I've just learned to accept.

Have you tried listening to choral works on electrostats?

No, that would be very interesting. I'd like to see the results.

I think I know what you mean. I believe I have come to prefer minimalist micing.

Yes, minimalist is often the best, but recording techniques can only do so much for lousy acoustics.

Here is a blurb that TLS has posted about Atlanta/Shaw and minimalist micing.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=492461&postcount=12

Thanks, I will check it out.

You also mentioned Gardiner, Cristofori. He has a post (from the same thread) in response to my query about his cycle.

I mention Gardiner (while I also think particularly of a Brahms Piano Concerto 2 recording I have on DG, also a relatively recent purchase), because of the forward and crystalline nature of many details, but that the space is not always convincing. I think the Gardiner is significantly better recorded spatially than my Pollini recording, from what I remember.

I mentioned Gardiner's Mozart Great Mass recording on Philips, which I feel is one of those that sounds a bit thin and shrill due to the production and/or the lousy acoustics, but I don't know about any of these others, as I do not have them.

By the way... your name is not really jostenmeat is it?

 

[jostenmeat]

I'd have to disagree here. Until somewhat recently, classical CD's have been quite expensive actually, and the really good and interesting ones that I like to buy still are.

Without offering any proof, I'd guess that a really good recording would leave any vinyl counterpart behind. I don't know what quite expensive means to you, but here is one disc that is recorded well enough that I used it for a number of auditions. $8. Well, it's one dumb example, but I'd also bet money that the vinyl wouldn't sound as good, but then again I've never heard a top of the line TT in use either. I have other examples for affordable CD's with excellent SQ that I've auditioned with. OTOH, a few were pricier ($15+).

One thing I do know, is that the classical genre is pretty much the only one where lots of excellent quality LP's can still be easily found for very cheap, minus the rare "collectibles" or what have you. Try finding original decent sounding Rock/Pop/Jazz LP's in near mint condition anywhere near those prices, and you'd be out of luck. They are all now highly collectible and sought after, and out of my price ranges, if I even wanted them.

I never said otherwise, and I agree.

Then you may missing out on lot of very interesting stuff and some obscure performances

Perhaps. However, there is a seemingly infinite selection among CD's, and I don't think I could peruse everything with even two lifetimes.

Can today's classical fan live without them? Sure, but the amount of composers, recordings and music I've discovered over the years on LP has been of incalculable value to me.

I could say the same thing for the CD format. Would I know of that many more composers and performances if I also collected vinyl? Methinks the odds are slim that it would be of a significant increase in my knowledge. At least for a while now, I try to research what I buy beforehand, anyways.

Yes, we are a very small minority, but so are classical music fans in general compared to most everything else.

I agree. I worked in a record store as a youngster for a summer. Even with a dedicated and quite large classical section, did it represent less than 1% of all sales in that store. There was also a large dedicated jazz area, though not in its own closed off room, but that barely did any better.

Years later, the jazz and classical were relegated together into a much smaller space, so that all kinds of magazines could be on display instead of a better music collection. I remember the hugest (I mean it was incredible) classical CD store that I had ever seen, in Berkeley, which closed down years ago. I've asked about a large store in Philly, years after having been in there, it also closed their doors.

I enjoy both LP and CD. I even have some cassettes and a small but nice collection of 78rpms, which I hope to get going someday. I don't understand why that has to be a problem for some people, it is the definition of what it means to be an audiophile in my book, not somebody who only listens to ultra-expensive equipment and/or recordings.

You're right.

Also, I've found that what a musician does or does not listen to or use is not always a good guide to live by. Ironically, the musicians I've met had some of the worst, poorly set up audio systems I've ever seen. They seem indifferent to the whole thing, as they spend much of their time playing music rather then listening to it.

There are a lot of musicians, and I don't know what you have in mind as far as being a guide to live by, but I absolutely agree that they don't care at all about reproduction (outside of those who are into recording, and even then). I didn't get into this stuff until I had already stopped playing, at least to any serious extent.

I just discussed some of those with TLS Guy on my previous posts. My point was that sometimes, accuracy in a recording is not always a good thing depending on how and where it was made, and CD can reveal the flaws in this more than an LP, which otherwise might colorize or soften the recording to make it sound better. This is relatively rare however, and I'm not saying that LP generally sounds better than CD. Most do not.

OK, thanks for the clarification. In my experiences, most classical recordings are at least decently recorded. Only the very cheapest recordings sound badly to me. Even then, some of my favorite recordings have very poor SQ (I think of Alicia de Laroccha's recordings of Albeniz, my favorite solo keyboard compositions outside of Bach's works). I wonder how much better it sounds on vinyl! lol.

On a technical side, piano may be harder to get right, whatever right for that instrument may be, but I myself have been satisfied with most piano recordings, it's the choral stuff I've had the most trouble with. . .

. . . No, that would be very interesting. I'd like to see the results.

Well, that's what I use for the stereo, and I personally think that is their greatest strength. However, what I particularly listen to with vocal works are Renassiance motets and masses. Smaller/medium sized groups such as the Hilliard Ensemble or the Tallis Scholars.

That's something I can't do much about, nor am I really willing to at the moment. I haven't always stayed at the same place anyway, and may be moving again in the not to distant future.

CD's have made moving my collection easier. I discarded all of the jewel boxes starting years ago, and simply placed cd + notes in CD books, categorically.

By the way... your name is not really jostenmeat is it?

Well, people who get to know me well often just refer to me as meat.

 

[TLS Guy]

You are right about a lot of musicians having lousy equipment. I think it is because they must be able to fill in whats missing and sort of auto correct whats wrong.

However they are often poor and can't afford better. When I have had them in for playback checks and editing they do seem to really appreciate a good system.

It seems you are a very eclectic collector. I can see how a classical fan could not want to set up a turntable. You have to go to trouble to set up a turntable properly and it takes up quite a bit of real estate.

I have not had good luck with used LPs, with one exception. An old bachelor who died in England left an enormous collection. He was an electrical engineer and built a lot of his own equipment. His records, sold by his nephew were pristine. He had an enormous equipment list, and watching that come up on eBay was like watching a huge museum be sold. He had a huge parts collection and I bought some of that also, especially SME parts.

However you can only listen to so much music and I think if you biased your budget a bit more to equipment you would be a lot happier.

For what you are listening to I think you need something bigger than bookshelves. Ideally you need to save for at least a B & W 802D for your musical tastes.

 

[jostenmeat]

You are right about a lot of musicians having lousy equipment. I think it is because they must be able to fill in whats missing and sort of auto correct whats wrong.

No, they don't even know what auto correct could even possibly mean.

Audio equipment of any kind, whether decent or lousy, is simply not even on their radar. I would be surprised if even 1 out of every 25 classical musicians you asked were even familiar with B&W (ok, at least for those who live outside of the UK). Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't any better than 1 out of every 100.

Professional, and perhaps even more so for pre-professional (they need to work harder to obtain a high level of music performance) are just too busy practicing, playing, critiquing to really get into hi-fi.

I had a roommate for a year, who has since gone on to an international career. I remember the year after we shared a space, we found our own respective apartments, and that he had wallpapered nearly his entire place with a concerto/orchestra score so that he could always study it, whether dressing, brushing his teeth, etc. Classical music as a study is just too demanding to do anything else really. It is non-stop for many; I've even met someone who practiced 15 hours a day. This person garnered first prize in four international competitions eventually.

The conductor for whom you helped me find a TT? When he is "appreciating" music, half the time he just prefers to read the score in silence, and hear it all in his head (even crazy Stravinsky, and lately Mahler). He's been using the same junk speakers for many decades.

Anyways, those have been my impressions.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I agree a good LP jacket can be a thing of great beauty.

In the classical world the full dynamic of the CD medium is pushed to the limit. There has been no rush to produce classical LPs again. There are some to placate the loony crowd. I certainly would not make a big push to produce LP versions of my CDs, and I think that goes for the vast majority of people who listen to classical music. So I think this whole issue is due to idiots in the pop culture. I have to say I have never had any affinity with those genres. In fact they have convinced me that civilization is not on a linear trajectory, and that in a number of ares it is the wrong way.

Classical music also really lost its way, for most of the twentieth century. As Sir Thomas Beecham remarked, "not one nth. part of it will survive." Most of it is already forgotten and a footnote to hubris. Actually beautiful music was being written through most of what I have called The Age of Ugliness. I'm glad that the composers who had the courage to rebel against the intellectual university crowd are now getting a hearing. There are now a generation of composers growing up who do not empty concert halls, like most of their teachers and fathers. This gives me great hope for the future.

As far as I can tell the pop culture is still firmly anchored in the Age of Ugliness on many levels. May be it will also make a transition into the new Age of Enlightenment.

Thank God! I thought I was an ignoramus for not being able to appreciate 20th century composers! I find a great deal of it to be an unlistenable, atonal racket. I love many genres, but 90% of my classical collection features composers from before the 20th century.

There's a TV news satire program on the CBC, called "This Hour Has 22 Minutes". A few years ago, they did a sketch taking the p** out of "modern" music. It featured Rick Mercer in front of a studio microphone, his sheet music in front of him and he's pounding on an anvil with a sledgehammer! It was hilarious!