Dynamic range of vinyl

[3db]

Range of Vinyl ..something I read from an Audio Asylum thread


"According to 1970 article in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society the dynamic range of records varies by frequency due to the maximum permissible groove excursion in the bass, the maximum slope of modulation in the the midrange, and the minimum radius of curvature which affects the highs. The maximum possible signal level ranges from -30dB in the bass to +15 dB in the mids, so the maximum dynamic range is a range from about 90dB to 25 dB.

On the other hand the April 1996 issue of Audio Electronics had a very math - heavy article titled "The Dynamic Range Potential Of The Phonograph" by an electrical engineer named Ron Bauman. Bauman applied some orignal thinking to measuring the dynamic range of an LP and determined that vinyl's range is "equal to, or better than the theoretical best a CD can achieve." The best set up he measured exceeded the 96 dB dynamic range of CD by a gigantic 16 dB! I don't think the article is on the web anywhere but a summary can be found in a Michael Fremer review of the Pass Aleph Ono on the Stereophile site. "

http://www.stereophile.com/phonopreamps/199pass/index1.html

 

[Alex2507]

The term 'original thinking' really makes me wonder if it is just another way of saying 'nobody else agrees with him'. That Fremer guy's use of terms like pristine, mushy and edgy leave me stupider than before I read anything he had to say and I resent that.

I'll just go back to hatin' on something else now.

 

[MidnightSensi]

The biggest practical difference I have noticed in vinyl regarding dynamics is that when vinyl is mastered, you can't compress it as much as a digital mix because the needle has to be able to stay on, so vinyl mixes are often more dynamic simply because of that. On high quality CDs though, they master them with a lot of dynamics anyways, so, then it makes no difference. I noticed the difference more on 'younger' tracks (after the loudness war began).

 

[highfigh]

Range of Vinyl ..something I read from an Audio Asylum thread

"According to 1970 article in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society the dynamic range of records varies by frequency due to the maximum permissible groove excursion in the bass, the maximum slope of modulation in the the midrange, and the minimum radius of curvature which affects the highs. The maximum possible signal level ranges from -30dB in the bass to +15 dB in the mids, so the maximum dynamic range is a range from about 90dB to 25 dB.

On the other hand the April 1996 issue of Audio Electronics had a very math - heavy article titled "The Dynamic Range Potential Of The Phonograph" by an electrical engineer named Ron Bauman. Bauman applied some orignal thinking to measuring the dynamic range of an LP and determined that vinyl's range is "equal to, or better than the theoretical best a CD can achieve." The best set up he measured exceeded the 96 dB dynamic range of CD by a gigantic 16 dB! I don't think the article is on the web anywhere but a summary can be found in a Michael Fremer review of the Pass Aleph Ono on the Stereophile site. "

http://www.stereophile.com/phonopreamps/199pass/index1.html

Nice to see Stereophile shows ads for super-fancy power cords in that link.

Dynamic range can't ignore the noise floor, no matter how "creative" someone thinks and because vinyl has a much higher noise floor, it can't possibly have a dynamic range of 112dB. At least the noise floor in digital media is electronic- this must be a purely theoretical exercise because no music or other information would be audible at -112dB unless the maximum was at about 140dB because ambient noise levels would obscure the quietest parts.

 

[Swerd]

Be careful about believing everything you read, especially on Audio Asylum. It ain’t called an Asylum for nothing.

...The maximum possible signal level ranges from -30dB in the bass to +15 dB in the mids, so the maximum dynamic range is a range from about 90dB to 25 dB.

You cannot add up the dynamic range limitations in the different audio ranges this way. That's misleading. Over the full audio range, the maximum dynamic range is no greater than the smallest dynamic range available in any subsection of the audio range.

The biggest practical difference I have noticed in vinyl regarding dynamics is that when vinyl is mastered, you can't compress it as much as a digital mix because the needle has to be able to stay on, so vinyl mixes are often more dynamic simply because of that.

You have it backwards. Recordings mastered for vinyl were intentionally compressed. This was done for two reasons (that I know of). One was an industry convention to allow about 20-23 minutes of music to fit on one side of the record. Greater dynamic range required fewer grooves per side. More music per side required closer spacing of the grooves and, as a result, less dynamic range. The other reason for compression was so that loud bass notes didn't cause the stylus to jump out of the groove.

Both of these were practical limitations to analog playback using needles and vinyl records, that no amount of original thinking or clever hand waving can get around.

highfigh has it right about the noise floor. There are two ways to increase dynamic range, raise the upper limit, the headroom, and lower the noise floor. Mechanical noise from a needle running over vinyl grooves is unavoidable. It can be minimized by careful and expensive efforts, but the best way to eliminate it is to eliminate the needle and the vinyl.

 

[6L6X4]

Mechanical noise from a needle running over vinyl grooves is unavoidable. It can be minimized by careful and expensive efforts, but the best way to eliminate it is to eliminate the needle and the vinyl.

You would be excoriated on a lot of forums for having the nerve to state such a blatantly true fact!

 

[Cristofori]

You have it backwards. Recordings mastered for vinyl were intentionally compressed. This was done for two reasons (that I know of). One was an industry convention to allow about 20-23 minutes of music to fit on one side of the record. Greater dynamic range required fewer grooves per side. More music per side required closer spacing of the grooves and, as a result, less dynamic range. The other reason for compression was so that loud bass notes didn't cause the stylus to jump out of the groove.

True... this is why vinyl with lesser amounts of music, like 45 rpms usually sound better.

highfigh has it right about the noise floor. There are two ways to increase dynamic range, raise the upper limit, the headroom, and lower the noise floor. Mechanical noise from a needle running over vinyl grooves is unavoidable. It can be minimized by careful and expensive efforts, but the best way to eliminate it is to eliminate the needle and the vinyl.

I don't know about measurements, but in most cases when I switch from listening to CD's from vinyl, I have to turn the volume up to listen at the same levels as before.

This is obvious to me that LP's do not have the dynamic range of most CD recordings, although DR isn't always the whole story sound quality.

 

[TLS Guy]

The term 'original thinking' really makes me wonder if it is just another way of saying 'nobody else agrees with him'. That Fremer guy's use of terms like pristine, mushy and edgy leave me stupider than before I read anything he had to say and I resent that.

I'll just go back to hatin' on something else now.

You got that right, Fremer and Co are arch priests of the loony set.

I have been involved with LP mastering.

Prior to noise reduction, the dynamic range was set at 60 db because of the limitation of magnetic recording tape. After professional noise reduction, tape has a dynamic range comparable or slightly better than CD.

However the LP is limited to 75 db dynamic range without dbx noise reduction. In the bass more, as you have to quite severely limit bass dynamic range to around 30 db in deep bass to stop groove kissing.

LP though a very good medium, is not as good as the equivalent CD from the same master, unless the CD is mastered by an idiot, of which there is no shortage these days.

 

[mtrycrafts]

..., but the best way to eliminate it is to eliminate the needle and the vinyl.

LOL
That is exactly what happened when the CD was introduced
It amazes me that one would expect miracles from a mechanical device such as a needle making physical contact with another material and trying to eliminate the noise and other anomalies, like the curves a needle can navigate properly and at what speed before it jumps the grooves.

Next evolution is all solid devices, no lasers, spinning discs, etc, at all for mass markets

 

[mtrycrafts]

..., unless the CD is mastered by an idiot, of which there is no shortage these days.

Oh, you are killing me, LOL

 

[mtrycrafts]

... for having the nerve to state such a blatantly true fact!

The nerves of some, oh my

 

[highfigh]

True... this is why vinyl with lesser amounts of music, like 45 rpms usually sound better.


I don't know about measurements, but in most cases when I switch from listening to CD's from vinyl, I have to turn the volume up to listen at the same levels as before.

This is obvious to me that LP's do not have the dynamic range of most CD recordings, although DR isn't always the whole story sound quality.

That has nothing to do with dynamic range- it's just the output of the CD/DVD player relative to what comes from the phono preamp.

 

[Alex2507]

Just for the record (ha ha) I think I mostly listen to vinyl: used vinyl.

I'm just not that hung up on hiss and pop ... that's not what I played the record to hear and that's not what I bought the record for. There is still music on those things. My last go around at the Goodwill store the girl actually asked me if I had 'the thing' to play those on ... she didn't know what it was called ... then she started rambling about her mother and 8 tracks.

I just wanted to say thanks to 3db for getting the discussion going.
Lots of good info in this thread for me not to get.

 

[TLS Guy]

Just for the record (ha ha) I think I mostly listen to vinyl: used vinyl.

I'm just not that hung up on hiss and pop ... that's not what I played the record to hear and that's not what I bought the record for. There is still music on those things. My last go around at the Goodwill store the girl actually asked me if I had 'the thing' to play those on ... she didn't know what it was called ... then she started rambling about her mother and 8 tracks.

I just wanted to say thanks to 3db for getting the discussion going.
Lots of good info in this thread for me not to get.

That's the point Alex. You play LPs because you want to hear the music!

 

[3db]

Just for the record (ha ha) I think I mostly listen to vinyl: used vinyl.

I'm just not that hung up on hiss and pop ... that's not what I played the record to hear and that's not what I bought the record for. There is still music on those things. My last go around at the Goodwill store the girl actually asked me if I had 'the thing' to play those on ... she didn't know what it was called ... then she started rambling about her mother and 8 tracks.

I just wanted to say thanks to 3db for getting the discussion going.
Lots of good info in this thread for me not to get.

Thats exactly why I posted it.. to get the discussion going and to get some insight from the experts. As flawed as vinyl maybe, its immensely more satisyfying to me than the CD experience . No harm done Alex

 

[3db]

You got that right, Fremer and Co are arch priests of the loony set.

I have been involved with LP mastering.

Prior to noise reduction, the dynamic range was set at 60 db because of the limitation of magnetic recording tape. After professional noise reduction, tape has a dynamic range comparable or slightly better than CD.

However the LP is limited to 75 db dynamic range without dbx noise reduction. In the bass more, as you have to quite severely limit bass dynamic range to around 30 db in deep bass to stop groove kissing.

LP though a very good medium, is not as good as the equivalent CD from the same master, unless the CD is mastered by an idiot, of which there is no shortage these days.

In the rock world and pop world for sure, there are an over abundance of idiots with the loudness war raging. What I find so ironic is that the CDs mastered by the marketing mavens have way less dynamic range in them compared to their vinyl counterpart despite the fact that the CD medium is capable of being way more dynamic.

Once thing CDs will never ever replace is the artwork of album covers or the involvment of actually prepping the medium for play.

 

[MinusTheBear]

or the involvment of actually prepping the medium for play.

You must then fully appreciate the art and craft of the fluffer

 

[Cristofori]

Once thing CDs will never ever replace is the artwork of album covers or the involvment of actually prepping the medium for play.

Yes... if there is one area were LP without a doubt trumps CD, it's in aesthetics.

 

[Cristofori]

That has nothing to do with dynamic range- it's just the output of the CD/DVD player relative to what comes from the phono preamp.

OK, thanks for that info.

I guess then that this tells me that most built in Phono pre-amps leave something to be desired.

Can anybody recommend a relativity inexpensive phono preamp that can put out as much as the average CD/DVD output?

 

[TLS Guy]

OK, thanks for that info.

I guess then that this tells me that most built in Phono pre-amps leave something to be desired.

Can anybody recommend a relativity inexpensive phono preamp that can put out as much as the average CD/DVD output?

Take your pick.

The output of phono cartridges varies widely depending on design. So the output of any pre amp will vary with cartridge. Just advance the volume. If signal to noise is adequate there is no problem.