What do these numbers mean please?

[bmninada]

Sorry for bugging you - can someone explain to me these numbers' effect? I have (refer my signature) Onkyo 606 so maybe settings can be tweaked. These are from my Paradigm 110CT Cinema system.

Crossover: 3rd. order electo-acoustic at 2 KHz.
Low freq. extension: 85 Hz (DIN)
Freq. response: +/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 20 KHz (on-axis)
+/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 15 kHz (30% off-axis)
Sensitivity - Room/Anechoic: 90 dB / 87 dB

Sub-woofer:
High current/discrete output: 450 dyn. peak/150 W RMS sustained
Low-fre. extension: 30 Hz (DIN)
Subwoofer cutoff freq.: 50 Hz - 200 Hz (variable)
Line-level input sensitivity: 160 mV
Line-level input Impedance: 10 k ohms

 

[j_garcia]

It means the speaker doesn't go very low. 85Hz is the lowest it can rerproduce and its best range is between 130Hz and 20kHz. A decent bookshelf speaker should be capable of somewhere between 50Hz and 60Hz for easier blending with a sub. 90dB sensitivity is good.

 

[Ed Seedhouse]

85Hz is the lowest it can rerproduce and its best range is between 130Hz and 20kHz.

It doesn't mean that at all. Many speakers will produce reasonable sounding bass notes for half an octave or so below their -3 db cutoff. However much depends on the slope of the roloff below resonance, and that depends on the Q factor of the resonance, which is not given.

If the Q is low then the speaker might accept enough bass boost to go an octave or so below resonance. If the Q is high then the ultimate extension will be less even with bass boost applied. However a higher Q speaker will usually have a boost above their resonance which will give the impression of better bass than they actually have.

The truth is that specifications given by the OP are not actually enough information to determine much if anything useful about the likely sound of the speakers.

 

[j_garcia]

Paradigm is usually pretty accurate with their numbers. If they say 85Hz, then it is 85Hz and having owned many Paradigms in my time, I am comfortable with this statement. Their -3dB wasn't given, but it is going to be fairly high, and even with a little boost, they still aren't going to easily blend to a sub. I agree that it isn't the whole story. I've actually heard these Cinemas and didn't think they were that bad, but like most satellite speakers, their weakness tends to be in the lower midbass - something that can be critical for good sound.

He didn't ask about the sound; he asked what the numbers mean. Without going into detail about what they actually mean, I gave an opinion based on what one could expect from those specs.

 

[Ed Seedhouse]

Without going into detail about what they actually mean, I gave an opinion based on what one could expect from those specs.

But the specs given do not justify that opinion. I agree that Paradigm generally makes decent sounding and well engineered speakers, but the numbers quoted tell us very little and, in my opinion, certainly don't justify your conclusions. Too much is left out.

 

[bmninada]

But the specs given do not justify that opinion. I agree that Paradigm generally makes decent sounding and well engineered speakers, but the numbers quoted tell us very little and, in my opinion, certainly don't justify your conclusions. Too much is left out.

If you can let me know what other information is required, I'll try to obtain the same from Paradigm. My primary reason was to understand what the numbers mean and if the same can be utilized to better tune my A/V.

 

[krzywica]

If you can let me know what other information is required, I'll try to obtain the same from Paradigm. My primary reason was to understand what the numbers mean and if the same can be utilized to better tune my A/V.

Yes and No.


The lower your main speakers produce sound effectively, the easier/better your sub will sound and vice versa. If your speakers cannot effectively reproduce sound say around 90Hz or so the hand off to the sub will be more noticeable, making for a less seamless listening experience and in some cases making your sub much more localizable (yes I know this isn't a word ).

 

[j_garcia]

But the specs given do not justify that opinion. I agree that Paradigm generally makes decent sounding and well engineered speakers, but the numbers quoted tell us very little and, in my opinion, certainly don't justify your conclusions. Too much is left out.

Sorry, I don't follow you. These numbers are the ones normally given for all speakers period. The numbers tell me:

1) Most likely need a sub. These guys aren't going to have potent bass on their own. They are sensitive, so they will perform well within their specified range.
2) Need a sub that performs well in its higher ranges as it will need to in order to blend with these speakers.
3) They likely have small drivers and wouldn't be my first choice if I were going to use them with music.

Those numbers don't tell us EVERYTHING (no numbers can tell you how a speaker sounds), but they do tell quite a bit, and I most certainly can make these guesses based solely on those numbers - not on what can be done with an EQ.

What else exactly would you need to know that might tell us more about these or any other speakers?

 

[MDS]

Low freq. extension: 85 Hz (DIN)
Freq. response: +/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 20 KHz (on-axis)
+/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 15 kHz (30% off-axis)
Sensitivity - Room/Anechoic: 90 dB / 87 dB

These definitely are 'standard' kind of specs that manufacturers provide.

It is true that a speaker will often play reasonable notes below its 'low freq extension' as given here and that is why manufacturers sometimes specifically state -3 dB or -10 dB. Polk, for example, lists an 'overall frequency respone' as well as the -3 dB point. They don't specify if the overall number is -10 dB down or some other number. You can conclude that it will be down -3 dB at the listed -3 dB point and will continue to have some output at a greater loss down to the 'overall' number.

Now is that 85 Hz for the Paradigms its -3 dB point or -10 dB point or something else? We don't know because it isn't stated. What is stated is that it is based on DIN standards which means it was measured at 1 kHz and not across the entire frequency range.

The other frequency response measurement says that the output will vary by no more 2 dB too low or too high from the input level over the range 130 Hz to 20 kHz which isn't really too bad for a satellite system but this system really will need a sub.

 

[Ed Seedhouse]

If you can let me know what other information is required, I'll try to obtain the same from Paradigm. My primary reason was to understand what the numbers mean and if the same can be utilized to better tune my A/V.

Well, if you would specify the model there's a chance that you can find a decent review with google. Manufacturers rarely give enough detail in adds to tell much about what the sound is likely to be. A quick look at the Paradigm web site is not reassuring about getting real measurements from them.

Paradigm are competent speaker designers and manufacturers. Chances are good that there speakers will perform at the general industry standards for speakers of the same rough cost, and that the differences between them and other competently sourced competitors will be fairly slight, though audible.

My attitude would be to not sweat it too much. They are likely to sound fine.

 

[j_garcia]

I do believe that 85Hz is the -3dB point, and even though it is DIN, it seems to be what one can reasonably expect from the respective speaker. For some reason I can't pull any specs from their site right now though.

My attitude would be to not sweat it too much. They are likely to sound fine.

He already owns them.

Paradigm builds all their own drivers and they are one of the major Canadian manufacturers who test in an anechoic chamber, so I trust the numbers they give (notice they give the anechoic sensitivity number as well). This isn't Def Tech we're talking about.

 

[Ed Seedhouse]

Sorry, I don't follow you. These numbers are the ones normally given for all speakers period.

Right. And the numbers typically given rarely tell you anything at all useful. In choosing designs the manufacturer's reputation tells you a lot more than the numbers they typically specify. Paradigm has a justifiably good reputation, in my opinion, and that is enough to justify a purchase/no purchase decision as far as I'm concerned.

Otherwise you need an objectively done and proper test or review in a reputable publication.

 

[j_garcia]

Right. And the numbers typically given rarely tell you anything at all useful. In choosing designs the manufacturer's reputation tells you a lot more than the numbers they typically specify. Paradigm has a justifiably good reputation, in my opinion, and that is enough to justify a purchase/no purchase decision as far as I'm concerned.

Otherwise you need an objectively done and proper test or review in a reputable publication.

I don't see where you've explained what else we would need to know? Sorry, but your logic has a number of holes. You think a published review is as important as the manufacturer's specs? LOL @ "reputable" publication. A review is little more than another person's opinion, and it is influenced by their gear, the room they listened in, and even their personal preferences. Sure it is more food for thought when comparing speakers, but it still doesn't tell me any more about them without actually hearing them myself. Purchase/no purchase based on reputation alone will get you bitten in the a** once in a while.

 

[James NM]

... A review is little more than another person's opinion, and it is influenced by their gear, the room they listened in, and even their personal preferences...

Yes, and sometimes the review is - or appears to be - influenced by advertising $$ from the manufacturer. Ever notice how often a review is accompanied around the same time frame by an ad from the manufacturer of the product being reviewed? Just saying.

 

[bmninada]

Thanks all for the responses. Just reiterating the specs below. If you can advice me what x-over I should use for my front and center will be great. I am not sure if Audessey is doing it right?
Low freq. extension: 85 Hz (DIN)
Freq. response: +/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 20 KHz (on-axis)
+/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 15 kHz (30% off-axis)
Sensitivity - Room/Anechoic: 90 dB / 87 dB

 

[j_garcia]

Thanks all for the responses. Just reiterating the specs below. If you can advice me what x-over I should use for my front and center will be great. I am not sure if Audessey is doing it right?
Low freq. extension: 85 Hz (DIN)
Freq. response: +/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 20 KHz (on-axis)
+/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 15 kHz (30% off-axis)
Sensitivity - Room/Anechoic: 90 dB / 87 dB

I'd start with 100Hz and compare that to 120Hz and see how that sounds.

 

[Boerd]

Sorry for bugging you - can someone explain to me these numbers' effect? I have (refer my signature) Onkyo 606 so maybe settings can be tweaked. These are from my Paradigm 110CT Cinema system.

Crossover: 3rd. order electo-acoustic at 2 KHz.
Low freq. extension: 85 Hz (DIN)
Freq. response: +/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 20 KHz (on-axis)
+/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 15 kHz (30% off-axis)
Sensitivity - Room/Anechoic: 90 dB / 87 dB

Sub-woofer:
High current/discrete output: 450 dyn. peak/150 W RMS sustained
Low-fre. extension: 30 Hz (DIN)
Subwoofer cutoff freq.: 50 Hz - 200 Hz (variable)
Line-level input sensitivity: 160 mV
Line-level input Impedance: 10 k ohms

A good place to start reading is:
http://www.rane.com/note145.html

Now, with some guessing the manufacturer wants to show off a flat frequency response here (+/-2 is pretty flat):
Freq. response: +/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 20 KHz (on-axis)
+/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 15 kHz (30% off-axis)

It doesn't give you the -3 Db low frequency point so I can't say much about how low they go.
Sensitivity of 90 is good (quite high) so you don't need a MegaWatt amplifier; 64W would give you 108 Db provided you want to go deaf and the speakers don't blow and catch fire.
The sub goes down to 30 which is OK but not great.
IF they sound good to you then they are good
Enjoy the music; in the end that's all what matters.

 

[Boerd]

Thanks all for the responses. Just reiterating the specs below. If you can advice me what x-over I should use for my front and center will be great. I am not sure if Audessey is doing it right?
Low freq. extension: 85 Hz (DIN)
Freq. response: +/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 20 KHz (on-axis)
+/- 2 dB 130 Hz - 15 kHz (30% off-axis)
Sensitivity - Room/Anechoic: 90 dB / 87 dB

Something to know: with one sub is better to crossover as low as you can.
The reason is that around 100Hz (some say 80Hz) you can start locating the sound source; ideally you should not be able to locate the sub.
You'll have to try ...