Runaway Toyotas. You saw it on this site first!

[TLS Guy]

Sure, but to remove their best-selling vehicle from the market for 6 years when severl of their other vehicles have correct software?

It might be a hard fix, but it's not "billions of dollars" hard.

Which might explain Rhino motors having trouble: but we are discussing the third largest automaker in the world, their most popular car, for more than a half-decade? A standard that literally scores of other models do meet?

It's not that a bug crept in unnotioced I have trouble with: it's the idea that:
1) It was known.
2) It costs them huge sums of money for having pulled the Camry for
3) more than half a decade.

And I really doubt that they really scaled back their presence in Europe due to poor sales. However the truth will come out in the end, and we shall see.

 

[TLS Guy]

Since Audioholics is in the news scoop business of late over re branding, I'm going to continue in this scoop mode.

In modern engine management the accelerator no longer has a mechanical connection to the throttle butterfly, or injector pump slide in diesels. The reason is fuel economy.

In a standard mechanical control, the accelerator sets the air flow and fuel flow follows. With the accelerator sending a signal to the engine management control via a sending unit, the engine management is in control of fuel and air independently.

This system came to Europe first in the nineties. They had runaway cars and especially heavy good vehicles and IEC 61508 standard came about. The testing and compliance are rigorous and the engine has to die if a problem is detected with the system and the vehicle can not be restarted.

Now in 2004 Toyota withdrew models from Europe, the Camry being first. They claimed it was due to poos sales, but on my frequent visits I saw lots of them. I'm now convinced Toyota removed the vehicles from Europe because they could not meet IEC 61508.

The dealers have been urging Toyota to bring back the Camry but they have refused.

Ford are going through this process in Europe now and this is what is involved.

I think the press have done a sloppy job on this story so far.

As a Toyota Camry owner, I think Toyota have a huge problem. I think Toyota and other manufacturers should be made to show their systems can meet IEC 61508. I personally don't think another Toyota involved in this should move off the lot until they can!

I have also posted this on my blog.

This just posted.

We had a Camry go out of control in Roseville MN the day before yesterday and ran into a building. The driver says the car just sped up.

This problem is now known to involve Lexus vehicles also now. There have been accidents. I find it hard to believe so many models going back to 2001 have the same accelerator mechanism. The NTSB should be able to find this out easily.

 

[lsiberian]

This just posted.

We had a Camry go out of control in Roseville MN the day before yesterday and ran into a building. The driver says the car just sped up.

This problem is now known to involve Lexus vehicles also now. There have been accidents. I find it hard to believe so many models going back to 2001 have the same accelerator mechanism. The NTSB should be able to find this out easily.

Oh my. This is a time when a company needs to be taken to town. Some engineers violated ethics and I'm willing to bet there are people who died for it. It's truly sad to see this kind of blind eye. I think I will bite the bullet and go German for my next vehicle.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Oh my. This is a time when a company needs to be taken to town. Some engineers violated ethics and I'm willing to bet there are people who died for it. It's truly sad to see this kind of blind eye. I think I will bite the bullet and go German for my next vehicle.

It's a conspiracy I tell you; brought on by liberal engineers in order to get conservative people to buy the defective cars and crash. I knew the salesman had a strange look when I bought my 06 Corolla.

 

[audiofox]

It makes me wonder how many other manufacturers (and their customers) are living on the edge-according to a recent LA times article, many now use "drive by wire" controls for both the throttle as well as the transmission, and many are also moving towards pushbutton starters and eliminating the ignition key/switch entirely. That combination makes for a very scary scenario-a runaway throttle with no easy means to disable the engine.

 

[audiofox]

Oh my. This is a time when a company needs to be taken to town. Some engineers violated ethics and I'm willing to bet there are people who died for it. It's truly sad to see this kind of blind eye. I think I will bite the bullet and go German for my next vehicle.

I seriously doubt that it was the engineers that made those decisions-try the marketing or finance departments first.

 

[TLS Guy]

It makes me wonder how many other manufacturers (and their customers) are living on the edge-according to a recent LA times article, many now use "drive by wire" controls for both the throttle as well as the transmission, and many are also moving towards pushbutton starters and eliminating the ignition key/switch entirely. That combination makes for a very scary scenario-a runaway throttle with no easy means to disable the engine.

My Toyota does not have an ignition switch. You have a Fob in your pocket, and as long as you are in proximity the car starts from a push button. It would be hard for it to have an ignition switch. The car has no starter motor or ring gear and starts from the electric drive motor.

This is the stress Toyota put their engineers under.

I don't think we should make fun of this issue by the way. People have died and I fear more will before this is through.

I just hope the NTSB are all over this, like they would be a train, rail crash, or Peto tubes on the Air Bus. I don't see any sign of it, but we would not necessarily know. I hope they are not leaving the investigation up to Toyota. If they are not all over this then our government really is into what it shouldn't be and not what it should be. Protection of the state and its citizens is job one for any government. The rest is a luxury.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

I don't think we should make fun of this issue by the way. People have died and I fear more will before this is through.

Oh lighten up. Of course it is bad if someone gets hurt.

 

[gene]

This is pretty shocking coming from Toyota products but it goes to show you all car manufacturers have issues even the ones typically rated highest in reliability. Years ago I bought an 02 Maxima SE. It was the biggest POS I ever owned. Tons of reliability problems including an accelerator pedal that actually caused my car to shut off when I pressed it to accelerate driving 65MPH on a congested highway. Luckily I was able to safely steer the car off the road before running out of kinetic energy. The next day I traded it in for an Acura and now will never buy another Nissan product again.

My wife eventually wants to get a Lexus but admittedly this scares us. I guess its fuel for an argument for us one day to instead own a Porsche Cayman Type S

 

[jeffsg4mac]

This is pretty shocking coming from Toyota products but it goes to show you all car manufacturers have issues even the ones typically rated highest in reliability. Years ago I bought an 02 Maxima SE. It was the biggest POS I ever owned. Tons of reliability problems including an accelerator pedal that actually caused my car to shut off when I pressed it to accelerate driving 65MPH on a congested highway. Luckily I was able to safely steer the car off the road before running out of kinetic energy. The next day I traded it in for an Acura and now will never buy another Nissan product again.

My wife eventually wants to get a Lexus but admittedly this scares us. I guess its fuel for an argument for us one day to instead own a Porsche Cayman Type S

I agree; I will never own a Nissan again either. Had 2000 frontier 4x4 that fell apart after 100k. I have a Suzuki XL 7 4x4 that has over 160k with only minor things and general maintenance. My Parents also have a 08 Altima and it has been in the shop for several times and still has some sort of alignment issue. Honda or Toyota I will go with. I am eyeballing the FJ Cruiser now.

 

[highfigh]

Oh my. This is a time when a company needs to be taken to town. Some engineers violated ethics and I'm willing to bet there are people who died for it. It's truly sad to see this kind of blind eye. I think I will bite the bullet and go German for my next vehicle.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the MBAs decided the right parts were too expensive, so they subbed the cheap ones.

 

[lsiberian]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the MBAs decided the right parts were too expensive, so they subbed the cheap ones.

Reminds me of some KVM switches now being used by one of our government agencies. Instead of giving them the good ones they gave them the cheap ones. Bad business people don't realize that the good ones are cheaper long term. Nor do they care because company loyalty has been lost.

 

[highfigh]

Reminds me of some KVM switches now being used by one of our government agencies. Instead of giving them the good ones they gave them the cheap ones. Bad business people don't realize that the good ones are cheaper long term. Nor do they care because company loyalty has been lost.

It's not that they don't realize, it's that they don't care (That really sounds like a Homer Simpson line). They look at it as a financial liability and as an asset that can be depreciated, for tax purposes. They look at the cost/benefit and buy the ones that appear to work with an acceptable percentage of problems.

Go, bean counters! The wave of MBAs since the '70s has caused a lot of corporate damage by cutting costs to the bone.

 

[TLS Guy]

A fix for Toyota’s problem. A hypothesis that explains the facts: a way towards solut

I have been thinking about and researching this problem intensively.

I have now made this new blog post:-

A fix for Toyota’s problem. A hypothesis that explains the facts: a way towards solutions.

Pick holes in the hypothesis all you want. Problems like this are solved when technically knowledgeable people engage in vigorous debate.

I certain it it not the accelerator pedal mechanism!

 

[Tomorrow]

It's a conspiracy I tell you; brought on by liberal engineers in order to get conservative people to buy the defective cars and crash. I knew the salesman had a strange look when I bought my 06 Corolla.

Since you mention conspiracy....let me tell you what I heard today.

I just came from getting my (1999) Toyota serviced at the local dealer. As I sat quietly reading a book I brought with me, many people there, employees and customers, were calling this a government conspiracy/red herring/phony issue. Yep...they suggested that since the U.S. is now knee-deep in GM and Chrysler...there exists a cool way to get rid of the competition.....

Interesting. Distrust of our government apparently runs rather deep.

 

[highfigh]

I have been thinking about and researching this problem intensively.

I have now made this new blog post:-

A fix for Toyota’s problem. A hypothesis that explains the facts: a way towards solutions.

Pick holes in the hypothesis all you want. Problems like this are solved when technically knowledgeable people engage in vigorous debate.

I certain it it not the accelerator pedal mechanism!

I'd like to hear their explanation for how the pedal assembly would make it speed up. I could definitely see a glitch in the cruise control, though. Has anything been said about whether the people with the problems were using that? Since they use TBW, there's no need for a servo like the old style, but if the cruise control module sees input that tells it to accelerate, either by an internal or external short, it won't be easy to stop it because it appears that the brake pedal switch won't cancel it in these cases.

 

[allargon]

I just came from getting my (1999) Toyota serviced at the local dealer. As I sat quietly reading a book I brought with me, many people there, employees and customers, were calling this a government conspiracy/red herring/phony issue. Yep...they suggested that since the U.S. is now knee-deep in GM and Chrysler...there exists a cool way to get rid of the competition.....

Interesting. Distrust of our government apparently runs rather deep.

You don't live in CA, do you? Man, there is hatred there of anything GM, Ford, etc. like a mighty tempest.

I routinely deal with those Toyota worshipers on Priuschat that think Toyota can do no wrong, either. Owning a Prius with rattles and a busted air conditioning system at 40k miles tells me otherwise. Now, at 60k the Xenon HID headlamps are blinking to the point that Toyota halved the cost (rather than replaced them for free) of the replacement bulbs. The hybrid system may last to 100k. However, I wonder about the rest of the car.

Every GM car I owned had an air conditioning system that lasted well past 40k. (I replaced the one on my Grand Am at 160k.)

I'd like to hear their explanation for how the pedal assembly would make it speed up. I could definitely see a glitch in the cruise control, though. Has anything been said about whether the people with the problems were using that? Since they use TBW, there's no need for a servo like the old style, but if the cruise control module sees input that tells it to accelerate, either by an internal or external short, it won't be easy to stop it because it appears that the brake pedal switch won't cancel it in these cases.

I agree that it's likely a combination of software and hardware. Of course, they won't mention the software part. That means they can shift more of the blame to the 3rd party supplier.

 

[TLS Guy]

The New York times today.

 

[Davemcc]

Since you mention conspiracy....let me tell you what I heard today.

If there is a conspiracy, I suggest that it's going to be found in the highest offices of Toyota's headquarters.

 

[lsiberian]

This is the stress Toyota put their engineers under.

Stressed engineers are bad ones. That I've seen numerous times. So much so I believe in a 36 hour work week for all engineers.