In-Ceiling Surrounds/Rears for around $3,500

[Tom Cecc]

I have read a lot of threads concerning in-wall/ceiling speakers, however, they have usually been at much lower price points. I plan on replacing my four very old Boston Acoustic surrounds and rears and because I want to keep them for many years and they will be mounted in my ceiling I wanted some high quality speakers that will be great for HT and multi-channel.

I currently have Magneplanar 1.6 speakers for fronts and two Definitive Technology Supercube I subs. I have a 7.1 system where my four surrounds/rears are mounted in a cathedral ceiling. I have no walls on either side of the listening area and my wife won't let me put them in the back wall. This isn’t the optimal position for my rears but at least she has accepted everything else. Even though I will mount the speakers in the ceiling, their depth and size are not really a problem, which is why I can go with in-walls and which I think will give me a better sound.

I am looking for speakers that would go well with my magneplanars yet would be equally as good for music (80%) as well as HT (20%). My listening area (19 x 14) is in the middle of a larger area (19 x 38). The cathedral ceiling, which has an angle of 30 degrees, peaks at 14’, right about the middle of the listening area, so the surrounds/rears are angled into the listening area (This would probably rule out any angled speakers). The surrounds/rears are mounted 10’6” above the floor. The floor is ceramic tile, except for the listening area, which has an area rug.

The TV and L/C/R’s are all part of a wall unit with the mains about 11’ apart. The rears are 15” from the back wall. The surrounds/rears are mounted 7’ apart (front to back) and 13’ apart (side to side). My Odyssey amp system consists of the following:

For mains - 2 monoblocks at 200 watts @ 8 ohms (2 ohm load stable)
For center & surrounds - 3 x 150 watts @ 8 ohms (2 ohm load stable)
For rears - 2 x 110 watts @ 8 ohms (2 ohm load stable)

I have been mainly searching for full range enclosed speakers (The BG's and ML's being the exceptions) for around $700 to 900 per speaker. So far I have narrowed my choices down to:

Sonance Cinema Ultra II LCR
Sunfire CRW-2
BG R-200
Martin Logan Passage
RBH SI-760
Dali Ikon Phantom
Triad In-Wall Bronze/4 LCR
Niles IW2670LCR

It's a hard decision because from what I've read, these all appear to be of high quality. It's also hard to demo them because few dealers have in-walls available to hear. The Dali, BG, ML and Sunfire all have ribbon tweeters, which might be a better match for my Magneplanars.

Does anyone have any experience with these speakers and how do you think they might blend with my Magneplanars?

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for any help

 

[Tom Cecc]

I wasn't able to post this before but here is a diagram. I tried to upload photos but the 100 KB limit degraded them too much.
Thanks

 

[jostenmeat]

Sonance Cinema Ultra II LCR
Sunfire CRW-2
BG R-200
Martin Logan Passage
RBH SI-760
Dali Ikon Phantom
Triad In-Wall Bronze/4 LCR
Niles IW2670LCR

It's a hard decision because from what I've read, these all appear to be of high quality. It's also hard to demo them because few dealers have in-walls available to hear. The Dali, BG, ML and Sunfire all have ribbon tweeters, which might be a better match for my Magneplanars.

Does anyone have any experience with these speakers and how do you think they might blend with my Magneplanars?

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for any help

Well, that's a toughie for sure. I would love to help you, as I'm sure many others here would, but I would perhaps ask this same question to Magnepan themselves, as well as finding some Maggie-dedicated threads/forums. Lemme hunt around.

http://www.magnepan.com/contact

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1086093

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=mug

I believe you are doing yourself right by taking the time to find the best match possible. However long it takes.

edit: oh yeah, I think perhaps markw here has a pair of Maggies, maybe he knows something. Try a PM perhaps.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/member.php?u=4026
http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/1606.html

 

[Tom Cecc]

Well, that's a toughie for sure. I would love to help you, as I'm sure many others here would, but I would perhaps ask this same question to Magnepan themselves, as well as finding some Maggie-dedicated threads/forums. Lemme hunt around.

http://www.magnepan.com/contact

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1086093

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=mug

I believe you are doing yourself right by taking the time to find the best match possible. However long it takes.

edit: oh yeah, I think perhaps markw here has a pair of Maggies, maybe he knows something. Try a PM perhaps.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/member.php?u=4026
http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/1606.html

I tried Magnepan and they really couldn't endorse any one brand. Also tried the AVS Magnepan Thread and the only response I got was to try Sunfire because of the ribbon tweeter.

It's been a while since I was on Audio Asylum, but I will give it a shot. I'll also try pm'ing mark.
Thanks,
Tom

 

[jostenmeat]

I tried Magnepan and they really couldn't endorse any one brand.

I was a little afraid of that. Darn. You know, I've never heard a Maggie, but do own electrostats. If Maggies and stats don't sound too dissimilar, that could be a good idea, as the MLs should be "matched" to their stats (within reason, you get my drift). I used to have a ML ribbon/planar center, and it had a sweet sound. That's such a funny adjective, but sweet is what I say. What I first loved about it was that the sibilance was immediately and greatly reduced with certain tracks, but that was comparing to a POS speaker. The tweeter is made by BG, and I think all of these speakers by ML are actually using BG's.

One concern I have, depending on the design and orientation of these tweeters, is what the dispersion would be like. If the tweeter is rectangular, it will disperse best along the shorter dimension, FYI.

I suppose if it was me, if there was a significant price difference, I would go with BGs. If the pricing was similar, I don't know what I would do.

Um, if all things were equal, I might go with the one that was more SPL capable, and/or had more power handling, you know, just in case.

 

[allargon]

If you just want ribbons, you could add BG Radia to the list, too.

http://www.bgradia.com/in-ceiling-speakers.html

Now, you said you have cathedral (Vaulted is what we call them in flyover country!) ceilings? In that case, I think you want to make sure you have aimable tweeters for your in-ceiling surrounds. I can totally understand the WAF so no towers, bookshelves or dipoles on stands, eh?)

 

[Tom Cecc]

I was a little afraid of that. Darn. You know, I've never heard a Maggie, but do own electrostats. If Maggies and stats don't sound too dissimilar, that could be a good idea, as the MLs should be "matched" to their stats (within reason, you get my drift). I used to have a ML ribbon/planar center, and it had a sweet sound. That's such a funny adjective, but sweet is what I say. What I first loved about it was that the sibilance was immediately and greatly reduced with certain tracks, but that was comparing to a POS speaker. The tweeter is made by BG, and I think all of these speakers by ML are actually using BG's.

One concern I have, depending on the design and orientation of these tweeters, is what the dispersion would be like. If the tweeter is rectangular, it will disperse best along the shorter dimension, FYI.

I suppose if it was me, if there was a significant price difference, I would go with BGs. If the pricing was similar, I don't know what I would do.

Um, if all things were equal, I might go with the one that was more SPL capable, and/or had more power handling, you know, just in case.

I did a comparison of all but when you look at BG and ML I have the following:

------MSRP----Woofers-----Range------Power Capability----Sens/Max SPL

BG----800-----5.25" x 2----60 - 20K-----50 - 150 (4 ohm)----88/110
ML----800-----6.5" x 2-----45 - 20K-----Max 150 (6 ohm)----90/112

It's pretty close, though the ML's have the larger drivers giving the lower bass extension, though 45Hz seems a little too low for an in-wall.

 

[allargon]

I did a comparison of all but when you look at BG and ML I have the following:

------MSRP----Woofers-----Range------Power Capability----Sens/Max SPL

BG----800-----5.25" x 2----60 - 20K-----50 - 150 (4 ohm)----88/110
ML----800-----6.5" x 2-----45 - 20K-----Max 150 (6 ohm)----90/112

It's pretty close, though the ML's have the larger drivers giving the lower bass extension, though 45Hz seems a little too low for an in-wall.

Great first post! I personally prefer the sound of the BG Radia's to ML. However, the ML's are waaaaaaaaay easier to audition at the nearest Fry's.

 

[jostenmeat]

It's pretty close, though the ML's have the larger drivers giving the lower bass extension, though 45Hz seems a little too low for an in-wall.

While it is assumed we are looking for the best SQ/match/design, do not worry about "too low". That's what a xover is for.

Even at the same xover point of 80hz, all three different models I have used in the last year as surrounds have easily discernible differences with extension.

Depending on the volumes you may want to obtain, some would say to set the xover a whole octave above the F3, and so for the MLs that would be at 90hz. Of course others say to xover right at the F3.

IOW, don't worry about "too low" because that's just more capability. Sort of like saying I want to buy so-and-so amplifier, but the 300w rating is too high.

 

[Tom Cecc]

While it is assumed we are looking for the best SQ/match/design, do not worry about "too low". That's what a xover is for.

Even at the same xover point of 80hz, all three different models I have used in the last year as surrounds have easily discernible differences with extension.

Depending on the volumes you may want to obtain, some would say to set the xover a whole octave above the F3, and so for the MLs that would be at 90hz. Of course others say to xover right at the F3.

IOW, don't worry about "too low" because that's just more capability. Sort of like saying I want to buy so-and-so amplifier, but the 300w rating is too high.

I wasn't worried about them being too low. I was just a little skeptical of the advertised numbers. I'm only a novice in a lot of technical aspects of this realm so I'm not sure, but maybe they really do hit 45Hz. Just wondering how realistic that number is. Aren't all those numbers just based on what the speaker company measures? As you can see below, the numbers do vary on some similar configurations. I read that enclosed speakers will give up a little bass, so maybe that explains some. I also did see a Def Tech in-ceiling claiming to go down to 26Hz. I wouldn't need any subs then

As a comparison, here are all the ones on my list:

--------MSRP--E?-Woofer----Mid---Tweeter-------Freq. Range----Power Capability

Salk-----700---Y--7" x 2----n/a---Ribbon------------65 - 20K----50 - 200 (8 ohm)
Sonance-1000-Y----8"----3" x 2---3/4"(Dme)---------70 - 20K-----5 - 200 (6 ohm)
Niles-----900--Y--6.5" x 2--1.5"---1" Dome-----------70 - 20K-----15 - 125 (6 ohm)
Sunfire---850--Y--4.5" x 2--n/a----Ribbon------------95 - 40K-----25 - 400 (8 ohm)
BG-------800--N--5.25" x 2-n/a----Ribbon------------60 - 20K-----50 - 150 (4 ohm)
ML-------800--N--6.5" x 2--n/a----Ribbon------------45 - 20K-----Max 150 (6 ohm)
RBH------740--Y--6.5" x 2--n/a----1" Dome-----------60 - 20K----75 - 250 (6 ohm)
Dali------725--Y---6.5"-----n/a-1 1/8" Dome+Ribbon--64 - 30K-----30 - 110 (8 ohm)


"E?" stands for enclosed or not. Also sorry for all the dashes. When I cut and paste, nothing stays in line.

I added the Salk HTS since I first posted. They are ID but I have read a lot of favorable posts about the line. I've also emailed the owner and he suggested that model. The only thing is they are actually box speakers with a baffle compensation adjusted to allow them be set in-wall/ceiling. The others are made to mount in-wall, the Salks will take more work framing in.

Hopefully I don't come across as a little too over-analytical. It's something I will keep for a long time and I want to make my best choice.
- Tom

 

[Tom Cecc]

Great first post! I personally prefer the sound of the BG Radia's to ML. However, the ML's are waaaaaaaaay easier to audition at the nearest Fry's.

Thanks. That's the thing to. The ML's seem to be a lot more accessible. I've even seen them on Amazon, which also gets them picked on too.

The only dealer for BG near me is about 30 miles away and he is primarily an installer, so they really don't have any to demo. He spoke highly of them but I also called BG and talked to one of their techs. Him and everyone I spoke with there were very friendly and helpful.

The tech explained why he thought they would do well with the Magneplanars and he even tried talking me into the lesser priced, by $300, PD-6LCRi model! I appreciate him trying to save me money, but I just rather have the R-200's because they have aluminum construction as opposed to polycarbonite. I figured they're going in the ceiling for a good number of years so I wanted to make sure they were well made and I had no regrets.

Another thing I found was that some companies have great customer service and others, not so great. Most are quick to respond, but some, I have never heard back from. Same goes with dealers; They say they'll call back and they never do. I feel like it was just a bad date It may not be a huge sale, but for just ordering four speakers they can make some pretty good coin.

I would have a lot easier choice with BG's if they were enclosed. That seems to be a recurring opinion on these forums though there are a few who disagree. Craigjohn has posted an article many times that points out the benefits of an enclosed in-wall/ceiling.

Thanks
Tom

 

[Tom Cecc]

If you just want ribbons, you could add BG Radia to the list, too.

http://www.bgradia.com/in-ceiling-speakers.html

Now, you said you have cathedral (Vaulted is what we call them in flyover country!) ceilings? In that case, I think you want to make sure you have aimable tweeters for your in-ceiling surrounds. I can totally understand the WAF so no towers, bookshelves or dipoles on stands, eh?)

Actually, we call them vaulted too I debated on the aimable tweeter issue too, but I think with my set-up, IMHO I may not need it. I wish I could post pics so you could see the room. There is a 100Kb limit though AVS has a 500Kb limit. Does that ever increase here through increased usage? I may just post them on AVS and provide a link.

Any towers or bookshelves would stick out and I do also like the cleaner look. Also, I want to save the space to someday move my Supercube subs to the back of the room for movies and add subs with more musical qualities to the front. But that may be quite a while from now.

Am I wrong about the R-200's? I thought they were Radias. I didn't go with the rounds because I already have rectangulars and I thought the larger fixture would give me better SQ or range. Isn't that true?
-Tom

 

[Tom Cecc]

I demo-ed some PMC Wafer-2 in-walls at a local dealer today. He also sells Sunfire and Niles and thought these PMC's would beat out those two and Sonance. We listened to all types of music including a couple CD's I brought.

These are definitely some kick-a** speakers for in-walls. Strong and dynamic. The only issue and I don't know how to explain it was that it had almost reserved (?) sound and a little muffled(?) in parts of the mid and low ends. I don't know if that makes sense and not that it was bad, just different. When I came home, I listened to my Maggies and there was definitely a little more openness with mine.

I couldn't put my finger on it but when I checked out PMC on-line, I saw that they were a British made speaker and that's when it hit me. It's a sound I've heard in a number of British speakers. I don't know if it's just something I'm hearing or is it a common experience?

Anyway, it was too bad cause he was making a really great deal on them. But after hearing them I may just stick with ribbon tweeters.