Where are all you experts now?

[Matt34]

If you are in fact "in the industry" your posts are unprofessional. It would be like Dr. Toole coming here and telling us, as the consumer, we are all stupid because he has developed the latest and greatest but will only provide partial information on something that hasn't been established or peer reviewed. There are better ways to introduce people to new technology (like submitting it to Gene).

 

[adwilk]

Here's the bottom line... Theres a product line thats grabbed the attention of some major manufacturers (sharp for one) that completely throws out what we all thought we knew about speaker design. Why not let this play out? It might be fun. Marks posted PDF sheds some more light on the designer. A quick google search of Plummer shows that this guy is no dummy. Did you ever think that we all might benefit from some of this technology? I actually admire this BioLinks guy's persistence. Seriously, Jerry.. What do we have to lose? He didn't do anything to you. Put your pitchfork down for a minute and see where this goes.

 

[adwilk]

I currently own the monitors. I'm happy to send them to anybody (i'll even pay shipping) who wants to do some testing and will post ALL the results here. Lets outline some measurements and benchmarking and I'll send them to somebody capable of providing reliable data.

 

[JerryLove]

Here's the bottom line... Theres a product line thats grabbed the attention of some major manufacturers (sharp for one) that completely throws out what we all thought we knew about speaker design.

"Sharp" is not a name I think of in conjunction with good audio.

I look forward to seeing some of these major manufacturers express this interest publicly. I look forward even more to seeing companies like Bowers and Wilkins adopting it (heaven knows their subs could use a little help). At that point I will gladly look at the charts they put up. I look forward to hearing gear based on this technology at my local stores.

Until that, or a credible review, convincing will require an explanation that makes sense. Contrary to some statements made: the audio community has done a lot of experimenting, and made a lot of changes. Cone-tweeters are mostly gone, and computer modeling has changed crossover design signifigantly. We've tried the exotic (plasma drivers, and diamond tweeters, and liniar arrays, and inductors, and 30ft horns, and giant ribbons, and ports and sealed-damped-and-eq'd). Some has stuck, some has not.

We've also seen a lot of snake oil.

Why not let this play out? It might be fun. Marks posted PDF sheds some more light on the designer. A quick google search of Plummer shows that this guy is no dummy. Did you ever think that we all might benefit from some of this technology? I actually admire this BioLinks guy's persistence. Seriously, Jerry.. What do we have to lose? He didn't do anything to you. Put your pitchfork down for a minute and see where this goes.

He practiced bad debate with fallacious logic; and that's personally offensive to me.

I'm not stopping anything form playing out: by posting on it, I'm extending the play. I think you are hacking a straw man.

I currently own the monitors. I'm happy to send them to anybody (i'll even pay shipping) who wants to do some testing and will post ALL the results here. Lets outline some measurements and benchmarking and I'll send them to somebody capable of providing reliable data.

Were I capable of producing that data: I'd voulenteer right now. Sadly: I lack the gear and the expertiese. I'm still learning to interprete other people's data. I'll keep my fingers crossed that someone takes you up on the offer. All I could do would be a subjective listening test in a poorly treated room.

 

[adwilk]

I had no idea you were so easily offended. I'll be sure to practice sound debate techniques so nobody's feelings get hurt.

Sharp may not be a "household" name for audio, but they are a solid electronics manufacturer. They aren't likely to spend valuable resources on "snake oil". That's all I was saying.

I'm the same as you as far as data interpretation goes. I just plug it in and if it sounds good, it piques my interest. The DAD-1 did that, the monitors caught my attention. I do a lot of "horsing around" on the forum, but I do feel like I'm a reasonably respected member and I want to give this guy a chance. My offer stands.

 

[Seth=L]

"Sharp" is not a name I think of in conjunction with good audio.

Awe, why not?

http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/253/#

 

[JerryLove]

Sharp may not be a "household" name for audio, but they are a solid electronics manufacturer. They aren't likely to spend valuable resources on "snake oil". That's all I was saying.

To be fair: Sharp is a household name. I've heard a lot of their stuff. What they are not is particularly high-quality.

But I don't know that sharp has looked at this, nor why, nor what they've spent, nor what they've concluded. As such, I cannot infer anything from a post saying "sharp has shown interest" or the like.

It looks like I'll be driving near Alpharatta GA on the 29th and again the 31st. I've got friends there from my time with the Alpharetta police mounted unit. Perhpas I can squeeze out some time to take a listen (though I'm doubtful as I have 26-hours of driving to accomplish in two days).

 

[adwilk]

Thanks for posting that, Seth. That article was extremely well written and quite entertaining.

 

[JerryLove]

Awe, why not?

http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/253/#

Made me go look at Sharp's page (http://www.sharpusa.com/ForHome/HomeEntertainment/Audio.aspx) and I recognized a pic. Those are with this guy's designs? Cool: then I can go listen at the mall.

 

[adwilk]

To be fair: Sharp is a household name. I've heard a lot of their stuff. What they are not is particularly high-quality.

But I don't know that sharp has looked at this, nor why, nor what they've spent, nor what they've concluded. As such, I cannot infer anything from a post saying "sharp has shown interest" or the like.

It looks like I'll be driving near Alpharatta GA on the 29th and again the 31st. I've got friends there from my time with the Alpharetta police mounted unit. Perhpas I can squeeze out some time to take a listen (though I'm doubtful as I have 26-hours of driving to accomplish in two days).

Perhaps I should have made the exclusion that they are not recognized in the highend community... either way, not the point. Sharp is currently using the technology in a handful of devices, other manufactures are on board as well. I appreciate the attempt at due-diligence. That is a lot of driving though, but maybe it will work out. I would certainly welcome your impressions. Be safe on the road.

 

[JerryLove]

Thanks for posting that, Seth. That article was extremely well written and quite entertaining.

Well built amplifiers don't have a "sound", unless it's deliberate. From the article:

In a word, amazing. Even digitizing analog? Yes. There was nothing digital-sounding about the SM-SX100. If this technology sounded any different from a good analog amplifier, tube or solid-state, it was in its transient and dynamic performance. Both were both stunning, especially in the rendering of bass microdynamics.

The SM-SX100 sounded fast, but not zippy or thin. High-frequency transients—cymbals, vocal sibilants—were just where you'd want them: naturally smooth, yet exceptionally detailed and convincingly non-mechanical. Shakers, gourds, bells, plucked strings—all had breathtaking clarity and detail, and no etch.

If "digital" conjures up "ringy," "glazed," "airless," "flat," "suffocating," "confused and confusing," and the rest, forget them. They had nothing to do with this amplifier. The SM-SX100 sounded open, airy (when the source material was), and, for the most part, transparent.

What's extra interesting is that he says it doesn't sound like the other "digital sound" stuff, but also that it sounds exactly like a "good analog amplifier, tube or solid-state"; which is interesting since people spend a lot of time and money on tubes because they do sound different than non-tubes (except for non-tubes programmed to imitate tubes).

But as I said: since I see the Sharp units from the picture on his website, I assume those are examples. I should be able to go listen to them by next weekend.

 

[adwilk]

Well built amplifiers don't have a "sound", unless it's deliberate. From the article:

Definitely not arguing that.. I just thought the article was entertaining.

 

[jamie2112]

I like turtles...........

 

[Alex2507]

... but I do feel like I'm a reasonably respected member ...

Yeah, I respect you but that and $4 will only get you a fancy cup of coffee at Starbucks.

BLA,

Doesn't the speaker reviewed here have something in common with your tweeter? It's a link that was passed along to me way back in regards to you as supportive of your claims of ... whatever. Anyway that reviewer lists his cables and they are advertising cables. That's what I was referring to and your use of terms like 'top men' and 'gurus' sounded sarcastic and insulting in your very first post in this thread so don't act like you're not going to sink to some level or another.

It's okay, roll in the mud with the rest of us.

Doing a reading of your graphs I can see that tragedy has recently struck very close to home and there is travel in your future. Two women figure very prominently in your life. By Thursday of next week, good fortune will smile upon you.

 

[adwilk]

Doing a reading of your graphs I can see that tragedy has recently struck very close to home and there is travel in your future. Two women figure very prominently in your life. By Thursday of next week, good fortune will smile upon you.

That's funny right there....

 

[Matt34]

Take a breath Jerry, cause apparently your throwing out red chicklets to people that are, for the most part, agreeing with you.

 

[bandphan]

I like candy..

 

[Seth=L]

No offense, but I know Wilson is a bad name to throw out in this audio circle. Overweight, overrated crap.

To whoever was so bold to give me a red for this post, I compell you to prove that Wilson provides good value for their speakers. They are one of the worst performing speakers in their class.

Otherwise STFU and keep your "ok" remark to my post to yourself.

 

[TLS Guy]

Alright, I'll bite.....

I haven't heard the sub in question... let me clarify that.

I have "extensive" experience now with the DAD-1 and TBI's Monitor sporting the ETL technology.

The Dialog Augmentation Device (DAD) comes as advertised. The product wasn't developed for its marketing venture, but it really does work. I hooked it up to my parents HTIB and my brother's entry level theater and the dialog from the respective center channels improved considerably. The largest consumer group doesnt care about measurements and whatnot and just demands the most performance for their money and the DAD can provide that. I'll endorse the upgrade...

Now, on to the monitors...

After having heard the DAD, I was very excited to try the monitors. I was disapointed with the sound out of the box. TBI's service was great and sent me an updated driver that should have improved the sound.

Those monitors aren't gonna pull rank in any listening room of mine, but.... The in room response tells me that the T/S specs can be thrown out when ETL is applied. The driver had significant output below 60hz and using dayton's woofer tester would lead one to believe a drastic roll off would occur around 120. I honestly don't care for the sound of the monitor, but I think the driver's performance was greatly approved by the application of ETL.

The point is making clear dialog is easy. You could use a PA bull horn for the center and it would be fine. You can put a huge boost in the speech discrimination band. The trick is getting a canter speaker with a smooth response that blends seamlessly with the rest of the system, and has clear natural speech. That is the hard part.

I have enjoyed these forums because they have not supported unsubstantiated tweaks and products that have no basis in science. Rather the site is for good sound making dollars count towards better systems.

Now that ETL is a non tapered line opening into a closed space. You say it works, I can prove it can't, and so could have a fifteenth century organ builder.

 

[BioLinksAudio]

Graphs are not "bogus"

I intended this to be in response to Jerry Love's and Seth=L's interpretation of our graphs but I couldn't find his post. Maybe he deleted it, I dunno. Howsomeever.., what he said was,

"The T/S alignment looks superior to the ETL alignment from the FR graphs you provided. Just like Jerry said in the other thread, the T/S graph is smoother, flatter and less variable. Can you explain that?"

Yes, I can explain that. Ohms law dictates current flow. With Thiele/Small, when amplifier power is delivered, the change in impedance will cause different current deliveries. Follow Ohm’s law for power (P=E²/R) to determine power transfer to the woofer. Compute the power delivery over the entire 10-100Hz range of the subwoofer. Notice that T/S will not control the SW but instead the woofer is controlling itself… hence the boominess.

The phase curve with ETL illustrates that it never crosses zero until driver resonance; e.g., above the SW range. This is an intrinsic indication of sound quality. The several zero crossings of T/S indicate a lack of quality due to resonance.

These curves have never been produced by any alignment known to man – they are not “bogus” and they cannot be faked. Don’t rely on “flat” frequency response curves for an indication of quality loudspeaker sound reproduction… they’re really meaningless on their own. See Sean Olive’s article, “What loudspeaker specifications are relative to sound quality?” http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html. Olive says, “Current industry loudspeaker specifications are woefully inadequate in characterizing the sound quality of the loudspeaker. The commonly quoted '20 Hz - 20 kHz, +- 3 dB' single-curve specification is a good example. Floyd Toole made the observation that there is more useful performance information on the side of a tire ...compared to what’s currently found on most loudspeaker spec sheets…”

As far as the complete sound system goes, any amplifier will perform at its best and up to its theoretical capabilities if its impedance curves remain flat. Some amps will actually blow up if they have impedance curves and phase deviations that are too wacky.