Recommend a small sub design?

jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I think my next project is going to be a small sub for my bedroom system. I eventually want to build a pair of ultimate subs for my main system but want to start with something simple. Also, I currently have no sub in the bedroom.

My requirements are small size and moderate price. I don't need the ultimate in extension, down to 25Hz would be plenty. I use the system for music and some old video game consoles, mostly. There's only one possible location for it, in a corner. I have a small bedroom that is pretty well dominated by my queen size bed. It should be, at most, 16" wide.

I'm thinking a 10" driver and plate amp. The benchmark I'm using is the Hsu STF-2 which I could get for about $350 plus shipping. Is there a DIY design that could get close to that for a similar budget? I'm considering the 240 watt Dayton plate amp but haven't found the right driver yet. I'd appreciate suggestions about existing designs or driver and plate amp recommendations.

Jim
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
For just a few more dollars than the dayton amp, you could get the Oaudio 300 watter and use a dayton reference 12" sub driver and probably stay under budget if you build the cabinet. You'll have better extension, more SPL. win/win.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
How about a transducer attached to the bed?

You wouldn't even have to put coins in it to make it work! :p

Oh, I'm just joking around, well a little bit at least. I'm curious what you will come up with, good luck.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think my next project is going to be a small sub for my bedroom system. I eventually want to build a pair of ultimate subs for my main system but want to start with something simple. Also, I currently have no sub in the bedroom.

My requirements are small size and moderate price. I don't need the ultimate in extension, down to 25Hz would be plenty. I use the system for music and some old video game consoles, mostly. There's only one possible location for it, in a corner. I have a small bedroom that is pretty well dominated by my queen size bed. It should be, at most, 16" wide.

I'm thinking a 10" driver and plate amp. The benchmark I'm using is the Hsu STF-2 which I could get for about $350 plus shipping. Is there a DIY design that could get close to that for a similar budget? I'm considering the 240 watt Dayton plate amp but haven't found the right driver yet. I'd appreciate suggestions about existing designs or driver and plate amp recommendations.

Jim
Are you close enough that you could go to Madisound? I bet they have some good closeouts. Ever done a down-firing sub?
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I just ran across the O-Audio amp today. I'm considering drivers from PE like the Titanic and HF series. I could do a local pickup at Madisound, as well.

If I get the O-Audio amp, what's a good 10-12" driver that would be in the neighborhood of $150? Given that I have limited placement options, getting a smooth in-room response will be a challenge but I may as well use the best driver in my budget.

I'll probably go with a vented system and I can model the box with WinISD. I'd like to stay under 100 liters for the box. I was planning on downward firing.

Jim
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I just ran across the O-Audio amp today. I'm considering drivers from PE like the Titanic and HF series. I could do a local pickup at Madisound, as well.

If I get the O-Audio amp, what's a good 10-12" driver that would be in the neighborhood of $150? Given that I have limited placement options, getting a smooth in-room response will be a challenge but I may as well use the best driver in my budget.

I'll probably go with a vented system and I can model the box with WinISD. I'd like to stay under 100 liters for the box. I was planning on downward firing.

Jim
The best 'available' drivers available in that price range are the Dayton RS 10" and 12" subwoofers. These have extremely linear motor designs comparable to the late Infinity Kappa Perfects. Note: it is not easy to get a ported design in a very small cabinet, as a proper port with low compression takes up a substantial volume by itself. But, you can use a trick I call a 'helper' port. You need a high pass subsonic filter like the O Audio 500 amp has, however. to use this trick. What you do is use smaller than ideal ports (standard round ports of course) to save internal volume, and assume your true extension is about 6-7Hz higher than the actual port tuning frequency. So, if your port is tuned to 25Hz, assume compression free linear outpout extension is really at about 32 Hz. This is because this far past the center tuning, the port velocity will be low enough to not be a factor. However, you need to engage a subsonic filter to start at about where the true useful extension begins(at 30-32 hz in this example) to prevent substantial excitation at the actual port tuning frequency(thus avoiding port noise, etc.). I call this a 'helper port'. :) I used this technique on my computer stereo subs to keep the volume from becoming too large. Tuning is at about 25Hz, but true compression free output extends to about 30Hz(anechoic), and I have a subsonic filter engaged under 30Hz.

-Chris
 
A

alphaiii

Audioholic General
The best 'available' drivers available in that price range are the Dayton RS 10" and 12" subwoofers. These have extremely linear motor designs comparable to the late Infinity Kappa Perfects. Note: it is not easy to get a ported design in a very small cabinet, as a proper port with low compression takes up a substantial volume by itself. But, you can use a trick I call a 'helper' port. You need a high pass subsonic filter like the O Audio 500 amp has, however. to use this trick. What you do is use smaller than ideal ports (standard round ports of course) to save internal volume, and assume your true extension is about 6-7Hz higher than the actual port tuning frequency. So, if your port is tuned to 25Hz, assume compression free linear outpout extension is really at about 32 Hz. This is because this far past the center tuning, the port velocity will be low enough to not be a factor. However, you need to engage a subsonic filter to start at about where the true useful extension begins(at 30-32 hz in this example) to prevent substantial excitation at the actual port tuning frequency(thus avoiding port noise, etc.). I call this a 'helper port'. :) I used this technique on my computer stereo subs to keep the volume from becoming too large. Tuning is at about 25Hz, but true compression free output extends to about 30Hz(anechoic), and I have a subsonic filter engaged under 30Hz.

-Chris
Interesting. So roughly how much cabinet volume (% wise) can you cut down using this method...or does it vary widely by driver choice?

As far as the Dayton RS subs, are you referring to the HF or HO versions?

I have been looking into 10" drivers to build a small music sub, and these Dayton drivers are in my list to consider, along with the HiVi SP10, Creative CSS-SDX10, and possibly some others.

Ideally though, I'm trying to find a 10" I can put into a small sealed box and add some low end EQ to get me -3db extension in the 30-35Hz range. Since I'm a complete novice at this, I'm finding it's not necessarily an easy thing for me to accomplish.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
I have been looking at small sub designs as of late. I will get back to you shortly with some options I have found.
 
A

alphaiii

Audioholic General
I have been looking at small sub designs as of late. I will get back to you shortly with some options I have found.
Great! Looking forward to reading what you've come up with.
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I modeled the RSS265HF-4 in WinISD last night. I could build it with a slot port and make the box big enough to accommodate it.

Another thing I tried was a sealed box of around 60 liters or just over 2 cu ft. That would give me a QTC of around 0.58 and an f3 in the 40s. With room gain, that may give me enough extension. As a bonus, the SPL would roll off enough to protect the driver from low frequencies without electronic filtering. I'm tempted to try this.

Jim
 
B

BillCinLR

Audioholic Intern
You might consider this:

_hometheatershack.com/forums/creative-sound-solutions/16761-creative-sound-solutions-sdx10-sub-kit

Good Luck,

Bill C
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
One could try 3 Tang Band W6-1139SG in a 2.4ft^3 (net) vented enclosure tuned to 26hz. It would yield +/-3db response from 22hz-101hz (anechoic) with 210 watts rms. A slot vent of 2" x 10" at 29.4" long would keep vent velocities at around 18m/s. Output anechoic is in the 104db-107db. It would be a neat project to try.

I have not checked pricing on this driver however.


The JL Audio 10W1v2 can be done in small vented applications as well. Around 1.8ft^3 (net) tuned to 24hz with at least 15.00 in^2 of vent area 31.625" long. Anechoic output is +/-3db from 25hz-83hz 105db-108db. This driver can easily be had for $100.00 or so.


The Dayton Reference series 12" RSS315-4 in a sealed 2.0ft^3 net enclosure would yield an anechoic f3 of 32hz and response of +/-3db from 32hz-94hz between 104.8db-107.8db. This with 300 watts rms.

Two JL Audio 8w1v2's vented in 2.5ft^3 net tuned to 25hz would be good at +/-3db 105db-108db from 23hz-93hz. 18in^2 of vent area at 17" long will keep vent velocities down. All assuming anechoic of course. 200 watts would be all that is needed here.


I will see what else I can find or come up with when I have more time.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
One could try 3 Tang Band W6-1139SG in a 2.4ft^3 (net) vented enclosure tuned to 26hz. It would yield +/-3db response from 22hz-101hz (anechoic) with 210 watts rms. A slot vent of 2" x 10" at 29.4" long would keep vent velocities at around 18m/s. Output anechoic is in the 104db-107db. It would be a neat project to try.

I have not checked pricing on this driver however.


The JL Audio 10W1v2 can be done in small vented applications as well. Around 1.8ft^3 (net) tuned to 24hz with at least 15.00 in^2 of vent area 31.625" long. Anechoic output is +/-3db from 25hz-83hz 105db-108db. This driver can easily be had for $100.00 or so.


The Dayton Reference series 12" RSS315-4 in a sealed 2.0ft^3 net enclosure would yield an anechoic f3 of 32hz and response of +/-3db from 32hz-94hz between 104.8db-107.8db. This with 300 watts rms.

Two JL Audio 8w1v2's vented in 2.5ft^3 net tuned to 25hz would be good at +/-3db 105db-108db from 23hz-93hz. 18in^2 of vent area at 17" long will keep vent velocities down. All assuming anechoic of course. 200 watts would be all that is needed here.


I will see what else I can find or come up with when I have more time.
Are you just quoting sim numbers, or are you factoring in non linear motor behaviour(s) and power compression? Rarely do drivers behave at high power as a sim predicts unless they are extraordinary drivers (like TC, W7, W6v2, Kappa Perfect, etc.).

-Chris
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I played around with some models using the SI version of the 6.5 inch sub. I tried a single driver vented system and a dual driver isobaric vented system. The drivers go for about $50 so using 2 or 3 would fit the budget but would make for a more complex build.

I'm still working on a 5.1 system that I started last winter. I chose some fairly complex design details that have required me to solve a lot of problems along the way. I really want to do something fairly simple for my first sub build.

I'm leaning toward using the RSS265HF-4 in a 60L sealed box with a 300W BASH plate amp. That should be more than enough sub for my bedroom. I am intrigued by the CSS driver that Bill C mentioned but may just go with the Dayton.

I'd rather stick with building a nice well braced box. I'll save the complexity for the finishing. I want to disguise the sub as a table. I'm wondering if I could get away with a Shoji look for the grill and sides, except using white fabric instead of rice paper. Would the wooden cross pieces rattle around if they are part of the grill?

Jim
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Are you just quoting sim numbers, or are you factoring in non linear motor behaviour(s) and power compression? Rarely do drivers behave at high power as a sim predicts unless they are extraordinary drivers (like TC, W7, W6v2, Kappa Perfect, etc.).

-Chris

Most of these sim's are below rated power levels and at or below rated xmax. I have direct experience with the JL applications and can vouch for them as remaining linear.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Matt just completed one that is fairly small if I remember correctly. :p

You could disguise it as another room.
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
No problem, I'll just get some contractors over here to build another room. :p

Maybe I should re-iterate, I'm not looking to build the ultimate sub, just one that will fit in a corner of my bedroom and fill in some low frequencies. I like to listen to the heavy metal station when I'm trying to sleep so I miss not having enough bass.

Jim
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
No problem, I'll just get some contractors over here to build another room. :p

Maybe I should re-iterate, I'm not looking to build the ultimate sub, just one that will fit in a corner of my bedroom and fill in some low frequencies. I like to listen to the heavy metal station when I'm trying to sleep so I miss not having enough bass.

Jim
Use the HIVI SP10 10" subwoofer:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=297-460

It is a semi-super woofer. Not the most linear woofer, but still very good, and has good thermal dissapation. It has a massive motor. Use the O Audio BASH500 amplifier. Use 1.8 cubic foot net volume, ported with 2 x 3" diameter ports, 31" long. Use standard kit ports and use 90 degree elbows to get the desired internal path length. Actual internal volume, accounting for driver, ports, etc, should be roughly around 2.1-2.2 feet. The ports will have some moderate compression around 24Hz, but by 27Hz, it will not be a factor. Use the subsonic filter on the O Audio 500 plate amp and set it for 24Hz, and this will prevent port compression from ever being a factor, and you will have a sub with very capable output down to 26-27Hz, anechoic. It will have very substantial output.

-Chris
 
A

alphaiii

Audioholic General
Use the HIVI SP10 10" subwoofer:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=297-460

It is a semi-super woofer. Not the most linear woofer, but still very good, and has good thermal dissapation. It has a massive motor. Use the O Audio BASH500 amplifier. Use 1.8 cubic foot net volume, ported with 2 x 3" diameter ports, 31" long. Use standard kit ports and use 90 degree elbows to get the desired internal path length. Actual internal volume, accounting for driver, ports, etc, should be roughly around 2.1-2.2 feet. The ports will have some moderate compression around 24Hz, but by 27Hz, it will not be a factor. Use the subsonic filter on the O Audio 500 plate amp and set it for 24Hz, and this will prevent port compression from ever being a factor, and you will have a sub with very capable output down to 26-27Hz, anechoic. It will have very substantial output.

-Chris
What kind of SQ can one expect with a build like this?

I was actually looking into this driver for a sealed design, but I don't know enough about the simulation/modeling programs yet to include some low end EQ (considering the OAudio 500W amp actually) and get an idea what it can do.

In my case, overall ouput is not the goal....instead compact size and SQ are priorities. Extension would only need to be into the high 20's-low 30's, since it'd be soley for music.

But maybe that isn't the ideal driver for small sealed applications.
 
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