Airiness - how do you make it better?

[Phoenix3434]

Hi guys.

I just came back from listening to a couple of Martin Logan pairs (Vista and Source) being driven by a Pioneer VSX 21 receiver. Not the greatest of receivers to drive Martin Logans, but please bear with me.

The Vistas (~$4000/pair) sounded great and had a certain "airiness" to them - the same feeling I get when I am in church - felt grand. The Source's ($2000/pair), while they sounded good, did not have this airiness to them.

I heard the Vista has a built in amp while the Sources do not. Could this be the cause of this "lack of airiness"? Would a better power-amp or receiver allow speakers without integrated amps to sound more "airy"?

Thanks!

 

[MidnightSensi]

Hi guys.

I just came back from listening to a couple of Martin Logan pairs (Vista and Source) being driven by a Pioneer VSX 21 receiver. Not the greatest of receivers to drive Martin Logans, but please bear with me.

The Vistas (~$4000/pair) sounded great and had a certain "airiness" to them - the same feeling I get when I am in church - felt grand. The Source's ($2000/pair), while they sounded good, did not have this airiness to them.

I heard the Vista has a built in amp while the Sources do not. Could this be the cause of this "lack of airiness"? Would a better power-amp or receiver allow speakers without integrated amps to sound more "airy"?

Thanks!

A speaker can sound 'constrained' when underpowered. The soundstage often collapses, and may be what you heard. Logan's are generally a fairly difficult 4-ohm load, and benefit from a 4-ohm stable mid-power amplifier (200wpc or so).

I'm not sure if the Source's can, but a lot of ML's can be bi-amplified. You can power the electrostats off of one amplifier and the woofers off another. This is actually benefitial, because the amplifier power supply is usually the limiting factor in these sorts of speakers...and receivers generally have baby power supplies because of packaging and costs.

The speaker could 'open' when properly powered, but, the Vista's may just be a superior speaker and provide a deeper soundstage.

 

[bandphan]

Aside from the above, the source has a much smaller panel and that will have great impact on the sound based on the listening area. What type of room would you be placing them in?

 

[jostenmeat]

I believe neither the Vista nor the Source are self amplified in any way. You have to step up to the Vantage from the Vista to do so, or to the Purity from the Source. The Purity is particularly interesting because it is entirely self powered, including the panel.

Also, AFAIK, you can't actively biamp these speakers, unless you dug into the innards and made some mods. It can only be passively biamped out of the box. But, what the hell do I know.

 

[JerryLove]

Using an EQ: raise the output in the 14kHz to 18kHz range and see what that does.

Unless you are talking reverb: in which case play with positioning (I recommend regarless) or look at using echo adding modes like "hall" on the receiver.

 

[jostenmeat]

Using an EQ: raise the output in the 14kHz to 18kHz range and see what that does.

Unless you are talking reverb: in which case play with positioning (I recommend regarless) or look at using echo adding modes like "hall" on the receiver.

You know, the use of the word "airiness" is difficult to understand, and I don't blame the OP at all because describing this sort of stuff is difficult at best.

However, I'm guessing it's the super low distortion that stats are capable of, and what I perceive as a tremendous ability to reproduce very low level detail.

Interestingly, I sometimes think that music recorded in a church, specifically a cappella vocal works such as Renassiance masses, or motets for that matter, is the most flattering for these types of speakers.

But, thanks to your post, I can now chime in a little more specifically as well.

As mentioned, the size of the panels matter. The room and the positioning matters. Acoustic treatments matter. The source material probably matters the very most.

For either of the models mentioned, I would definitely want to run them with adequate amplification. That doesn't have to be expensive, but I would be apprehensive of most receivers driving these speakers.

OP, during your auditions, make notes of amplification, the use of treatments, and positioning. Stats like to have significant distance from the front wall, which itself would be ideally absorbed for the backwave.

 

[Phoenix3434]

Thanks guys for the responses.

A speaker can sound 'constrained' when underpowered. The soundstage often collapses, and may be what you heard. Logan's are generally a fairly difficult 4-ohm load, and benefit from a 4-ohm stable mid-power amplifier (200wpc or so).

Both speakers are 4-ohm speakers. Can the soundstage collapse vertically? Would that explain the "airiness"? When I am at a church the I always associate the "airiness" with the high ceilings. Might not be accurate, but hey that's how I feel .

What type of room would you be placing them in?

The room is about 20x12 feet with the entertainment area taking up a 12x12 feet area (little more than 1/2 the room). The other part of the room has a bar and such. Both the couch and the speakers are against the two opposite "long" walls, respectively. Essentially, one of the speakers will be in a corner of the room, while the other speaker will be approximately be half-way along the 20 foot wall. Not the best acoustic placement, but it can't be helped.

I believe neither the Vista nor the Source are self amplified in any way.

Really? Maybe I misread something. You might be right. If that is the case, then the power-amp couldn't be the reason then - if neither speaker has a built-in amp?

You know, the use of the word "airiness" is difficult to understand, and I don't blame the OP at all because describing this sort of stuff is difficult at best.

That it is. . It's a chilling feeling to listen to music with a lot of airiness - at least for me. Makes me feel like I am listening to something larger than life.

As mentioned, the size of the panels matter. The room and the positioning matters. Acoustic treatments matter. The source material probably matters the very most.

Except for the size of the panels, everything else were the same for the two panels. I would say the Source's (cheaper one) actually had the better position since they were placed more to the outside.

Stats like to have significant distance from the front wall, which itself would be ideally absorbed for the backwave.

My right speaker will be in a corner of the room as described above. It will be about 2 to 2 1/2 feet from the back wall and about 1 1/2 - 2 feet from the side wall. Will this be a huge problem?

Thanks guys!

 

[highfigh]

Thanks guys for the responses.



Both speakers are 4-ohm speakers. Can the soundstage collapse vertically? Would that explain the "airiness"? When I am at a church the I always associate the "airiness" with the high ceilings. Might not be accurate, but hey that's how I feel .



The room is about 20x12 feet with the entertainment area taking up a 12x12 feet area (little more than 1/2 the room). The other part of the room has a bar and such. Both the couch and the speakers are against the two opposite "long" walls, respectively. Essentially, one of the speakers will be in a corner of the room, while the other speaker will be approximately be half-way along the 20 foot wall. Not the best acoustic placement, but it can't be helped.



Really? Maybe I misread something. You might be right. If that is the case, then the power-amp couldn't be the reason then - if neither speaker has a built-in amp?




That it is. . It's a chilling feeling to listen to music with a lot of airiness - at least for me. Makes me feel like I am listening to something larger than life.




Except for the size of the panels, everything else were the same for the two panels. I would say the Source's (cheaper one) actually had the better position since they were placed more to the outside.




My right speaker will be in a corner of the room as described above. It will be about 2 to 2 1/2 feet from the back wall and about 1 1/2 - 2 feet from the side wall. Will this be a huge problem?

Thanks guys!

How high is the ceiling? That matters, too, because some reflections from that will arrive later and it makes the room sound larger. Another EQ trick is to increase 8KHz a little. If you ever read about psycho-acoustics, you'll see that increasing 4KHz a little makes the stage sound wider and a little more at 8KHz makes it sound taller. An 8KHz tone, even if it's on headphones and only in one ear, will sound like it's directly above the listener.

 

[jostenmeat]

Both speakers are 4-ohm speakers. Can the soundstage collapse vertically?

Yes.

Would that explain the "airiness"?

No. (AFAIK)

The room is about 20x12 feet with the entertainment area taking up a 12x12 feet area (little more than 1/2 the room). The other part of the room has a bar and such. Both the couch and the speakers are against the two opposite "long" walls, respectively. Essentially, one of the speakers will be in a corner of the room, while the other speaker will be approximately be half-way along the 20 foot wall. Not the best acoustic placement, but it can't be helped.

Ideal would be to have lengthwise orientation, but I understand. You will want to get your seating away from the wall, if at all possible, even if just on sliders for critical listening only. You will most likely need to treat the wall area directly behind the speakers, the close sidewall's first reflection point, and behind you as the listener as well.

However, I'd say the same thing no matter what speakers you chose.

Really? Maybe I misread something. You might be right. If that is the case, then the power-amp couldn't be the reason then - if neither speaker has a built-in amp?

Well, if they haven't changed anything from a couple of years ago, I am right. The most easily discernible difference between the powered Vantage and non powered Vista is the bass for sure, IMO.

Except for the size of the panels, everything else were the same for the two panels. I would say the Source's (cheaper one) actually had the better position since they were placed more to the outside.

Being at the outsides does not forcibly make it better. It depends on everything else too. Then even with the same room do some people prefer having them wider than others, or with more toe in than others.

My right speaker will be in a corner of the room as described above. It will be about 2 to 2 1/2 feet from the back wall and about 1 1/2 - 2 feet from the side wall. Will this be a huge problem?

Hard to describe what "huge" really means. You will most likely want more space than that. Ideally, even double that. Just from the stator to wall, not the rear of cabinet as some people describe with monopoles.

Good luck.

Thanks guys!

You're welcome.