60-120Hz won't do

[jeanseb]

Hey guys, I'm writting here to see if come of you can help solve my problem. Here's what my HT system is made of:

• Yamaha RX-V1600

• 
  Athena AS-F1, AS-C1, AS-R1

• 2x Velodyne DLS-5000R

My amp crossover is set at 120Hz. I tried a couple times at 80Hz (THX), but it just seems worst to me. ALL my speakers are also set to "Small".

Here is my problem: My high levels are good, my very low levels are really good too, but I just can get that kick (60-120Hz) out! When listening to a band, I won't ear the bass kick like my friend with his HSU VTF3-Mk2.

Is it normal??

THANKS!!!

P.S.: I posted some pic of my set up so you can tell me if there's something wrong there.

 

[Matt34]

Hey guys, I'm writting here to see if come of you can help solve my problem. Here's what my HT system is made of:

• Yamaha RX-V1600

• 
  Athena AS-F1, AS-C1, AS-R1

• 2x Velodyne DLS-5000R

My amp crossover is set at 120Hz. I tried a couple times at 80Hz (THX), but it just seems worst to me. ALL my speakers are also set to "Small".

Here is my problem: My high levels are good, my very low levels are really good too, but I just can get that kick (60-120Hz) out! When listening to a band, I won't ear the bass kick like my friend with his HSU VTF3-Mk2.

Is it normal??

THANKS!!!

P.S.: I posted some pic of my set up so you can tell me if there's something wrong there.

Move x-over back to 80hz and try a sub in the back of the room behind the listening position.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey guys, I'm writting here to see if come of you can help solve my problem. Here's what my HT system is made of:

• Yamaha RX-V1600

• 
  Athena AS-F1, AS-C1, AS-R1

• 2x Velodyne DLS-5000R

My amp crossover is set at 120Hz. I tried a couple times at 80Hz (THX), but it just seems worst to me. ALL my speakers are also set to "Small".

Here is my problem: My high levels are good, my very low levels are really good too, but I just can get that kick (60-120Hz) out! When listening to a band, I won't ear the bass kick like my friend with his HSU VTF3-Mk2.

Is it normal??

THANKS!!!

P.S.: I posted some pic of my set up so you can tell me if there's something wrong there.

The problem is not the sub. It has to be that your Athena speakers are not properly diffraction compensated. I have not heard them, but your description is classic.

Try setting your mains and center to full, and roll in your sub at X 2 the F3 frequency of you mains.

If this does not work it is time to go speaker shopping.

 

[jeanseb]

Try setting your mains and center to full, and roll in your sub at X 2 the F3 frequency of you mains.

Sorry for my ignorance but what does this mean?

Thanks guys, I appreciate that very much!

 

[TLS Guy]

Sorry for my ignorance but what does this mean?

Thanks guys, I appreciate that very much!

Full means full range, i.e. large. The F3 of your speakers is 40 Hz, that is the point were the level drops 3db below mean, and falls off at 24 db per octave.
So bring your sub in at 80 Hz.

The speaker is a two way. It says it is 8 ohm compatible, but that does not mean much. However sensitivity is high at 92 db. Now it is impossible to diffraction compensate a two way, without sacrificing sensitivity. So I suspect your speakers have none to precious little diffraction compensation. My hunch is that your speakers are weak in the wind in the critical 80 to 250 Hz range. This makes 2.5 ways speakers a much better bet, as you can correct diffraction loss with the lower second woofer, without sacrificing sensitivity. However then you have a four ohm speaker, no matter what the manufacturer may claim.

You can test the theory by correcting the diffraction loss of the narrow cabinet with room gain. You can do this by seeing if placing your speakers well into a corner corrects the problem you are experiencing.

 

[lsiberian]

How far from the wall do you have them? This sounds like a Baffle step issue perhaps. Sometimes putting speakers closer to the wall will help.

But chances are your room is much too large for this type of design.

 

[jeanseb]

Full means full range, i.e. large. The F3 of your speakers is 40 Hz, that is the point were the level drops 3db below mean, and falls off at 24 db per octave.
So bring your sub in at 80 Hz.

The speaker is a two way. It says it is 8 ohm compatible, but that does not mean much. However sensitivity is high at 92 db. Now it is impossible to diffraction compensate a two way, without sacrificing sensitivity. So I suspect your speakers have none to precious little diffraction compensation. My hunch is that your speakers are weak in the wind in the critical 80 to 250 Hz range. This makes 2.5 ways speakers a much better bet, as you can correct diffraction loss with the lower second woofer, without sacrificing sensitivity. However then you have a four ohm speaker, no matter what the manufacturer may claim.

You can test the theory by correcting the diffraction loss of the narrow cabinet with room gain. You can do this by seeing if placing your speakers well into a corner corrects the problem you are experiencing.

I set my cross over to 80Hz, and then to 60Hz. It makes a world of difference.I don't know why I didn't whink about that before.

But why can't my subwoofers reproduce the 60-120Hz like my towers? What if I had little cubes instead?

And one last question? Let's say that you had one thing to add/replace in my system, what would it be? New AVR, power AMP, new speakers?

Thanks!

 

[lsiberian]

Full means full range, i.e. large. The F3 of your speakers is 40 Hz, that is the point were the level drops 3db below mean, and falls off at 24 db per octave.
So bring your sub in at 80 Hz.

The speaker is a two way. It says it is 8 ohm compatible, but that does not mean much. However sensitivity is high at 92 db. Now it is impossible to diffraction compensate a two way, without sacrificing sensitivity. So I suspect your speakers have none to precious little diffraction compensation. My hunch is that your speakers are weak in the wind in the critical 80 to 250 Hz range. This makes 2.5 ways speakers a much better bet, as you can correct diffraction loss with the lower second woofer, without sacrificing sensitivity. However then you have a four ohm speaker, no matter what the manufacturer may claim.

You can test the theory by correcting the diffraction loss of the narrow cabinet with room gain. You can do this by seeing if placing your speakers well into a corner corrects the problem you are experiencing.

This isn't a fun scenario, but I think an EQ could be very helpful. You'd need a 2 channel amp in addition to the eq to pull this off. If you want to go that route I'd be happy to help.

 

[lsiberian]

I set my cross over to 80Hz, and then to 60Hz. It makes a world of difference.I don't know why I didn't whink about that before.

But why can't my subwoofers reproduce the 60-120Hz like my towers? What if I had little cubes instead?

Thanks!

How did you place the subwoofer?

Use a crawl test to do it properly and you probably won't have the issue.

 

[TLS Guy]

I set my cross over to 80Hz, and then to 60Hz. It makes a world of difference.I don't know why I didn't whink about that before.

But why can't my subwoofers reproduce the 60-120Hz like my towers? What if I had little cubes instead?

And one last question? Let's say that you had one thing to add/replace in my system, what would it be? New AVR, power AMP, new speakers?

Thanks!

Subs are designed for the last two octaves. That is 20 to 80 Hz. That is sub range. Sub drivers are heavy, to get Fs down, so they can produce the target frequencies.

Wash you mouth out about cubes. If you upgrade anything, the answer is speakers, speakers and speakers. However you it probably would be advisable to add a power amp after that.

I was just suggesting corner placement as a test. It would not be an ideal placement. However if your speakers have the problem I suspect they have, then I doubt they would boom in the corner.

 

[jeanseb]

Subs are designed for the last two octaves. That is 20 to 80 Hz. That is sub range. Sub drivers are heavy, to get Fs down, so they can produce the target frequencies.

Wash you mouth out about cubes. If you upgrade anything, the answer is speakers, speakers and speakers. However you it probably would be advisable to add a power amp after that.

I was just suggesting corner placement as a test. It would not be an ideal placement. However if your speakers have the problem I suspect they have, then I doubt they would boom in the corner.

Thanks! So it will be speakers then. Boxing day is coming fast and we can get some great deals. I tought about Mirage OMD-15 series. I really like the soundfield that these speakers give.

Do you have any other suggestions?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks! So it will be speakers then. Boxing day is coming fast and we can get some great deals. I tought about Mirage OMD-15 series. I really like the soundfield that these speakers give.

Do you have any other suggestions?

You have asked a difficult question. You have a very large space there, and you are going to need something with some guts. I doubt the Mirage will do the trick especially in a large space.

I did audition the Mirage range a few months ago with my friend. We thought the sound smooth, but that the sound stage did not satisfy.

If you click on my signature, you will see that I build my own speakers and always have.

I have had a couple of flirts with omnipolar designs, the most extended a four to five year period. I would not go down that road again and here's why.

On first hearing they sound impressive and the ambiance and space beguiles you. The dissatisfaction sets in. The reason they are very intolerant of a wide variety of venues and mic techniques. recordings that can sound good or acceptable on other speakers can sound really odd on omniploars.

They also are not good speakers for intimate music. Instrumental and vocal recitals are often odd to say the least. Solo piano is a particular trip up for them.

I also doubt those speakers will have adequate guts for your space. Also Mirage publish no specifications or measurements of their speakers. To not have either is unacceptable.

I see those speakers are not cheap. May be you should see if you can get a deal on the entry level B & W 800 series towers.

I have auditioned quite a few speakers of late, and in the main not liked what I have heard. The list of speakers my friend and I have felt acceptable recently, have been B & W 800 and CM series, the Spendor range. We have heard speakers by Watt, Revel, Vienna, Paradigm and KEF and deemed them unacceptable. I have not auditioned Dynaudio recently, but I have not heard a speaker of theirs that really offended me and some have been very good.

At SOTU I liked the Pioneer Ex3, but I think this has turned out to be vapor ware. As far as I can tell a year later they have no dealers, and no published MRSP.

I thought this speaker was fair and very reasonable value for money.

I thought this speaker was also pretty good for the money.

I should get a chance to audition a couple of speakers by Salk in the near future.

Apart from this I really can't help you.