Bi-amping question from a new member

M

mgsylvestre

Enthusiast
I have a pair of old Klipsch RF-3 floorstanding speakers. I have "bi-amped" the speakers.

I believe that I have done it correctly. Each speaker is now fed by two separate amps which are connected separately, one for the woofers and one for the horn (I am using an Onkyo TX-NR5007 which allows you to do this by using the surround back amps to feed the tweeters).

When I try to disconnect the woofer or tweeter cable, the expected result occurs i.e. I can't hear any sound coming from the corresponding woofers or horn. Everything therefore seems to be in order.

Do I need to do anything else, like opening the speakers and disconnecting something? I don't even know if there is any crossover electronic in the speakers. I looked-up Klipsch's site, but I can't find any information.

Can anybody offer any guidance?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I have a pair of old Klipsch RF-3 floorstanding speakers. I have "bi-amped" the speakers.

I believe that I have done it correctly. Each speaker is now fed by two separate amps which are connected separately, one for the woofers and one for the horn (I am using an Onkyo TX-NR5007 which allows you to do this by using the surround back amps to feed the tweeters).

When I try to disconnect the woofer or tweeter cable, the expected result occurs i.e. I can't hear any sound coming from the corresponding woofers or horn. Everything therefore seems to be in order.

Do I need to do anything else, like opening the speakers and disconnecting something? I don't even know if there is any crossover electronic in the speakers. I looked-up Klipsch's site, but I can't find any information.
From what you describe, you have correctly wired your speakers to "bi-amp" them. To be technically correct, you have succeeded in "passively bi-amping" your speakers, because your speakers have a passive crossover (inside the cabinet). The two pairs of terminals on the back of the cabinet are wired to allow separation of the tweeter circuit from the woofer circuit that make up the crossover.

Biamping is a holdover from earlier days when big powerful amps were much more expensive than good speakers. Today the reverse is true. Despite that, the audiophile myth of the benefits of bi-amping persists. Your receiver does not appear to be low in power, and it probably had no problem driving your Klipsch speakers. Do you find any noticeable difference in their sound since you changed to bi-amping?

If you disconnect the passive crossover, you must replace it with an external crossover or your speakers will sound bad, and you will probably destroy the tweeters. If you choose to use an external crossover, you must know how to correctly design a crossover that does at least as well as the one that Klipsch supplied with your speakers. Some people foolishly believe that they can easily do this, but because of the nature of your original question, I doubt you are one of those :).

If you choose to use an external crossover (as described in the above post), you will also find that it is an expensive option not only because of the expense of the active crossover unit, but because it prevents you from using your receiver. You must wire an active crossover between a preamp and the amplifiers. The benefits are, at best, very small, and it is probably not worth the cost.
 
M

mgsylvestre

Enthusiast
Bi-amping discussion

"Do you find any noticeable difference in their sound since you changed to bi-amping?"

I basically did this as an experiment (1) because the receiver allows it and the receiver's documentation is to the effect that it is a good idea; (2) I read articles and other material to the same effect (3) there was no extra cost involved.

I believe there is a difference, but that's based on the memory of how the system sounded before. The only way to tell for sure would be to set up some sort of blind test.

"If you disconnect the passive crossover, you must replace it with an external crossover or your speakers will sound bad, and you will probably destroy the tweeters. If you choose to use an external crossover, you must know how to correctly design a crossover that does at least as well as the one that Klipsch supplied with your speakers. Some people foolishly believe that they can easily do this, but because of the nature of your original question, I doubt you are one of those :)."

You are quite right about that. I don't even clearly understand what the benefit to do this would be at this point and I certainly do not have the technical knowledge to do this.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
"Do you find any noticeable difference in their sound since you changed to bi-amping?"

I basically did this as an experiment (1) because the receiver allows it and the receiver's documentation is to the effect that it is a good idea; (2) I read articles and other material to the same effect (3) there was no extra cost involved.

I believe there is a difference, but that's based on the memory of how the system sounded before. The only way to tell for sure would be to set up some sort of blind test.

"If you disconnect the passive crossover, you must replace it with an external crossover or your speakers will sound bad, and you will probably destroy the tweeters. If you choose to use an external crossover, you must know how to correctly design a crossover that does at least as well as the one that Klipsch supplied with your speakers. Some people foolishly believe that they can easily do this, but because of the nature of your original question, I doubt you are one of those :)."

You are quite right about that. I don't even clearly understand what the benefit to do this would be at this point and I certainly do not have the technical knowledge to do this.
I am not a proponent of blind testing, but of measurements instead. Blind testing is far too problematic in my view to be considered reliable for making decisions(blind testing must be used to determine when a difference is heard in SPL though). That being said the measurements have already been done along with the blind tests. There is not real benefit here. You are wasting your time and money. I know it's a bit blunt, but I want you to have the best sound possible and suggest you spend your effort on improving other aspects of your system.

I suggest you experiment with speaker placement instead. Find the best placement for your room and think of this topic no further. Once you've found placement I suggest you start experimenting with room treatments.

These are much more fruitful endeavors.

I do suggest you learn to take frequency measurements from your seating position, but only if you want to become a hardcore audio nerd. :D
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
"Do you find any noticeable difference in their sound since you changed to bi-amping?"

I basically did this as an experiment (1) because the receiver allows it and the receiver's documentation is to the effect that it is a good idea; (2) I read articles and other material to the same effect (3) there was no extra cost involved.

I believe there is a difference, but that's based on the memory of how the system sounded before. The only way to tell for sure would be to set up some sort of blind test.

"If you disconnect the passive crossover, you must replace it with an external crossover or your speakers will sound bad, and you will probably destroy the tweeters. If you choose to use an external crossover, you must know how to correctly design a crossover that does at least as well as the one that Klipsch supplied with your speakers. Some people foolishly believe that they can easily do this, but because of the nature of your original question, I doubt you are one of those :)."

You are quite right about that. I don't even clearly understand what the benefit to do this would be at this point and I certainly do not have the technical knowledge to do this.
It's a real disservice that home theater receiver makers say this in their manuals. It is wrong and causes a lot of confusion. It think it stems from the fact that people pay a lot of money for their receivers and they hate the idea of not using 2 channels if they have a 5 channel surround system, as many people do.

The limiting factor to amplification is the capability of the power supply transformer. In a sense, this acts like a car's engine, and the power ouput transistors act more like a car's transmission. If you want more power, you need a bigger power supply transformer.

In your case, you have the same power supply and are dividing its capability into more output channels. You haven't added any ability to deliver power. Only adding external amps, with their additional power supply transformers can deliver more power to your speakers.

If your amplifier has enough power to begin with, and I think yours does, the whole argument about bi-amping becomes silly. There is very little (if any) benefit and it costs a lot of money. It is also very difficult to determine with blind testing whether there is any (even if slight) audible benefit to bi-amping. Blind testing is the only way to determine if audible differences exist.
 
BigSkreen

BigSkreen

Junior Audioholic
Bi curious?????

It's a real disservice that home theater receiver makers say this in their manuals. It is wrong and causes a lot of confusion. It think it stems from the fact that people pay a lot of money for their receivers and they hate the idea of not using 2 channels if they have a 5 channel surround system, as many people do.

The limiting factor to amplification is the capability of the power supply transformer. In a sense, this acts like a car's engine, and the power ouput transistors act more like a car's transmission. If you want more power, you need a bigger power supply transformer.

In your case, you have the same power supply and are dividing its capability into more output channels. You haven't added any ability to deliver power. Only adding external amps, with their additional power supply transformers can deliver more power to your speakers.

If your amplifier has enough power to begin with, and I think yours does, the whole argument about bi-amping becomes silly. There is very little (if any) benefit and it costs a lot of money. It is also very difficult to determine with blind testing whether there is any (even if slight) audible benefit to bi-amping. Blind testing is the only way to determine if audible differences exist.
I have a few questions on this. Does this mean that a receiver does not limit the output on a single channel it just limits the overall amount? It seems that it would do both. For instance my receiver is 7*140. I would imagine that the total is limited to 980W and each channel is limited to some number higher than 140 for peaks.

In my case my front two speakers also have an 10" woofer. It would seem that biamping would work well. I would never be able to raise the levels of the fronts high enough to provide them enough relative power over the center.

This is all hypothetical since I don't have the ability or need to bi-amp.
 
M

mgsylvestre

Enthusiast
Bi-amping continued

My other hobby is photography and it is not nearly as confusing!

The Onkyo TX-NR5007 manual states on p. 23 that the front and surround back terminal posts can be "bi-amped to provide separate tweeter and woofer feeds for a pair of front speakers A that support bi-amping, providing improved bass and treble performance". (my emphasis)

This statement may be wrong, but its quite clear! (by the way, I am considering the Paradigm Studio 100 in the process of upgrading my system, and have downloaded the manual. The Paradigm manual states that there are benefits to passively bi-amping theses speakers, which again seems to contradict some of what you can read on these boards. Go figure).

I think I understand the argument about the limitation of the power supply, but the fact remains that this power supply can feed all of the 9 amps that this receiver contains. I am doubling the number of amps that are used by such speakers by passively bi-amping the speakers. Assuming that the power supply has enough capacity to feed those, am I not at least increasing the available power for the speakers?:confused:
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The Onkyo TX-NR5007 manual states on p. 23 that the front and surround back terminal posts can be "bi-amped to provide separate tweeter and woofer feeds for a pair of front speakers A that support bi-amping, providing improved bass and treble performance". (my emphasis)

This statement may be wrong, but its quite clear! (by the way, I am considering the Paradigm Studio 100 in the process of upgrading my system, and have downloaded the manual. The Paradigm manual states that there are benefits to passively bi-amping theses speakers, which again seems to contradict some of what you can read on these boards. Go figure).
Originally said by a few, but repeated by thousands and thousands, the internet has allowed such audiophile myths to propagate. I'm afraid that audio manufacturers have found it is easier to agree with the myths instead of risking loosing money by fighting them. Most speaker makers also would rather provide an extra set of cheap binding posts than loose a potential customer.
I think I understand the argument about the limitation of the power supply, but the fact remains that this power supply can feed all of the 9 amps that this receiver contains. I am doubling the number of amps that are used by such speakers by passively bi-amping the speakers. Assuming that the power supply has enough capacity to feed those, am I not at least increasing the available power for the speakers?:confused:
It is important to understand what the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) requires when receiver makers state their amplifier power specifications. Look at what Onkyo says for your receiver:

Front L & R
145 W + 145 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Center
145 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Surround L & R
145 W + 145 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Surround Back L & R
145 W + 145 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Front High/Wide
145 W + 145 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Note that these power ratings apply only when 2 channels are driven. What power is available when all channels are driven is not stated, and not required by the FTC (see section IIB in the third column). It still may be plenty powerful when all channels are driven, but it certainly will not be 145 watts per channel. Although nothing Onkyo says fails to comply with what the FTC requires, they are still misleading you and nearly everyone else who reads that.

So when you drive your two speakers with 4 amplifier channels instead of 2, how much power is available to the speakers? Short of doing your own measurements (if you had the right instruments), you won't know.

So far, I've only skirted around the main controversy about bi-amping:

Just what does change when you switch from one amp channel driving both a woofer and tweeter (in a 2-way speaker) to one amp channel driving the woofer and another amp channel driving the tweeter?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation of what could be different other than more power. I've heard a lot of dubious suggestions (usually invoking some amount of audiophile voodoo), but none of them convince anyone who knows basic electronics that they are genuine. Its easy to understand that if you need more power, get a bigger amp. But bi-amping (or bi-wiring - don't even ask) is not supported by any reasonable scientific explanation nor has it been demonstrated to be audibly different. But if you want to start a serious forum fistfight, try telling that to an audiophile who has spent buckets of money on multiple amps to bi-amp his speakers.
My other hobby is photography and it is not nearly as confusing!
You definitely got that right ;) :rolleyes: :D. Imagine the howls and laughter that would come in response to an offer like this:

Psst, hey bud, I have an internet contact who sells the most incredible cryostatically treated lens cleaner that effectively doubles the resolution of your camera. You can get 4 oz. of this stuff at the bargain price of $139.95.​
 
M

mgsylvestre

Enthusiast
I really like the no nonsense no voodoo approach!

Swerd, thank you for taking the time to answer this.

Your clarification about the power ratings is very interesting. Reading the Onkyo specs carefully in the manual, I notice that in the power supply section it states that the power consumption is 12.8 A and 1160 W. This appears to be a maximum which cannot possibly be exceeded when all channels are driven.

It may not be the proper way to calculate this, but 145w x 9 = 1305w, which is more than 1160w. This may be a bit unrealistic, as the house would probably come down and I would definitely get banned from my house and the neighbourhood long before I could play all 9 channels at 145w for an extended period of time :D (not to mention that I could heat my whole house with the receiver, it does run hot), so the maximum power available from the power supply may be enough in the real world.

I may still increase the power available to the front speakers in my current 5.1 configuration by bi-amping, however, inasmuch as I am not hitting this ceiling (145w x 7=1015).

One of the things that I like about this site and this community so far is that you can read reviews and articles and get comments by people who do not automatically accept manufacturer's claims and who use their heads to evaluate these claims.

Just this week, I saved hundreds of dollars on speaker wires that I was about to order!

As to bi-amping and bi-wiring, I will take away that these are controversial subjects.

In my case, I think I will retain the configuration for now since it does not cost me anything to do it (I don't even have to buy any additional wire, my speakers were, ahem, already bi-wired on the basis of advice I received years ago).
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I'm glad you understand the spirit in which I meant my comments. I usually avoid answering bi-amp questions because so many people have firmly held misconceptions about it. I'm still surprised I wrote as much as I did yesterday :D. Your questions seemed like they deserved good answers.

If you want to understand more detail about amplifier ratings, there are several good articles written by Gene Della Sala, one of the Audioholics administrators:

The Truth About Amplifier Power Ratings

The All Channels Driven Amplifier Test Controversy

The All Channels Driven (ACD) Amplifier Test
 
thejknight

thejknight

Audioholic Intern
Hi All, I want to re-hash this with a new question:

Several reviews of the 5007 say the additional channels can be used to bi-amp or bridge. Bridging 2 channels together is very different from just bi-amping right?

If they are bridgeable, does anyone know the potential output?

And lastly some acronym help... On Onkyo's site they mention BTL just under the bi-amp capable. What is BTL?
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR5007&class=Receiver&p=f
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Te bigger issue is that passive biamping does not significantly increase the power available to the speaker. It nothing like doubles it. The reason is that the power divide is 400 Hz. The power going to the tweeter is minute compared to the power going to the woofer. Because of diffraction compensation issues even if you could biamp at the acoustic power divide, much more power would still go to the speaker reproducing below 400 Hz than above it.

The real benefit of biamping with active rather than passive crossovers is to get rid of some of the ills of passive crossovers and avoid the insertion loss of passive crossovers. Passive crossovers waste over half your amp power whether you biamp passively or not.
 

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