DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[MinusTheBear]

Not enough days in the Christmas season.

and people like Bob Dylan releasing a Christmas album, I thought it would be nice to share an update to an old classic that many of have heard or sung.

On the twelfth day of Christmas,
Mark Schifter sent to me

19 shipments stuck in the Panama Canal
18 prepaid sales
17 damaged subwoofers
16 defective drivers
15 hissing headphone amps
14 missed deadlines
13 late deliveries
12 beta testers out six thousand
11 Kool Aid packets
10 unanswered phone calls
9 e-mail excuses
8 subs a humming
7 bouncing checks
6 I'm sick stories
5 missing gaskets
4 stripped screws
3 subs a flapping
2 veneers a cracking
0 MFW-15 owners manuals
And a bunch of underfunded raffles

 

[gonk]

Yeah, where is the MFW-15 manual? I thought it was being written a couple months ago, and I'm sure they wouldn't lie to us. Maybe they waiting for the second anniversary of the sub's initial release to unveil the user's manual.

 

[Chu Gai]

Yeah, where is the MFW-15 manual? I thought it was being written a couple months ago, and I'm sure they wouldn't lie to us. Maybe they waiting for the second anniversary of the sub's initial release to unveil the user's manual.

How friggin' dare you question this man?! You know he can't write without using ellipsis! He's been sick. He's been trying. He's out there answering his phone, helping with ground loop problems, sending out defective products while playing "Bad Boys, Bad Boys" in the custom made listening room that Field Marshall Steidle put together with no money so they'd have room for that large walk-in crowd. He's selling plasma so he can repay those hundreds of thousands in raffle monies he walked away with and didn't pay taxes on.

 

[Chu Gai]

How many lies can Shifty say in one thread?

Will he throw anyone under the bus?

I thought it would be fun to read the UFW thread over at 123. Not that it's fun to read how people have been waiting years for replacement amps for subs that are now near or past the warranty period. That sucks that they laid out good money ($600 list as I recall) and got a product that died in short time.

So, let's see...

9/2 A member asks what's doing with UFW-10 amps?

9/7 Shifty replies they got a 'latest production sample' from good old Zeng Ming (the guy who is skilled in making other shitty electronics) and he and the missus have been testing it for several days. Announces to the crowd that he told Zeng go ahead and send them by air.
My assessment? Bold faced lie on multiple counts.

9/23 Still no amps and you can't blame it on Amelia Earheart.

9/25 One guy gets an email saying they've gotten preliminary paperwork and are waiting to confirm flight information. Shifty tells everyone 'step by step' and how eager and excited he is to deliver these gems of electrical engineering.
My assessment? Buying more time. Also a lie. You've got to order these things in quantity and by now everyone knows Shifty's a deadbeat so Zeng Ming, if he exists, ain't gonna ship anything unless he's been paid.

10/17 Shifty sends out an email and blames Zeng Ming suggesting Ming is the one who keeps changing dates. Says instead he's going to go with a US based source. Of course that doesn't mean it's a US made amp. He decides to go with a Dayton plate amp but doesn't tell anyone it's a Dayton. He's looking to soften and set people up and wash his hands of the problem. He's telling them it won't be the same amp but it's not his fault.
My assessment? First part a lie. Second part the truth except it's all his fault.

10/18 Shifty says he'll do his best to post actual data this week. Says it won't be as powerful. Nothing like paying for a 500 watt amp and getting...
My assessment? He never had any intention or means to measure the amps. We all know what Shifty's best is.

10/23 Shifty says the amps are in and are being modded with two, count them, two resistors
My assessment? Yeah, right

11/4 Shifty says amps to ship on the 5th and that he saw final install instructions.

 

[Chu Gai]

I posted the following on another forum

It was in response to a poster who took umbrage that a user would publicly post their disatisfaction because MLS has not honored their agreed upon solution to a problem within the time frame that was promised. I post it here because you never know when posts might get deleted or threads locked only to vanish in limbo.

Lhasa's only problem appears to be posting his whining complaints to a forum that can do nothing to remedy his issue.

As if posting this on the heavily moderated and censored AV123 forum would be better?

Let's review - he called Mark who told him he would fix it.
Lhasa has not yet received the fix and is wondering if it will happen or not.
Mark has the information he needs (we decided to screw you over and you can forget about getting your fix - or - it is on the way and here is when you can expect it).
Instead of calling Mark, Lhasa posts here "waaa waaa I don't know what's happening!".

Let's do a better review, shall we? Lhasa has been posting, emailing, and calling AV123 for a year or more. Countless outreaches by Lhasa have been met with outright silence. He has been willingly ignored. He bought an A-stock subwoofer and shortly thereafter the veneer developed cracks. This is a well known failing among a host of AV123 products spanning product originating both in China as well as Colombia. This is why there's such a large amount of B-stock. It may be 'perfect' when you you get it, but just give it time and it'll soon be B-stock or worse. He makes a post here because it's just about the only place MLS will dare venture to outside the comparatively safe enclave that constitutes what passes for AV123's forums.

No offense, but posting here when you know dang well you could pick up the phone and call someone who actually has an answer just seems like complaining for the sake of complaining. It doesn't say much for your problem-solving skills.

They had a discussion and based on whatever the promises were (they were not disclosed) and the time frame they would occur within, Lhasa was satisified. That time frame has passed. Week after week. Month after month. Months turning to years. If you want to take a shot at Lhasa's problem solving skills, you go right ahead. How's about taking a shot at the party at the other end for the same thing? How's about publicly questioning the integrity of a man's word and what passes for customer service?

If I had an issue with a company - and I have before - I would post my issues AFTER giving them ample opportunity to resolve it. I don't have time to whine like a little silver-spoon mama's boy for hours upon end before contacting someone who can actually solve my problem for me - or at least get the information I need.

I'm going to make the assumption that you weren't aware he's been doing this for many months if not over a year. Who else can he contact, Noubourne, besides the head honcho? His wife? This is not just any company, it's AV123, and I say that not because they rise above others. They flat out don't.

Maybe you can contact AV123 and ask them to send you a change of diaper when your new amp comes (or whatever they were sending you).

I didn't know Mark was wearing Depends. He's already dealt with much that can go wrong with a subwoofer. He's had a driver replaced. He's had a defective amp replaced at least once. He's had to deal with stripped screws. Now he's wondering just why the phuck did he pay A-stock price for a subwoofer that developed signficant veneer cracking and delamination during the warranty period? Where is his compensation for that and for that matter, ought not everyone who bought A-stock and had the same problem be owed something tangible besides promises and agreements that are not honored by the President of the company?

 

[stevo238]

How friggin' dare you question this man?! You know he can't write without using ellipsis! He's been sick. He's been trying. He's out there answering his phone, helping with ground loop problems, sending out defective products while playing "Bad Boys, Bad Boys" in the custom made listening room that Field Marshall Steidle put together with no money so they'd have room for that large walk-in crowd. He's selling plasma so he can repay those hundreds of thousands in raffle monies he walked away with and didn't pay taxes on.

Chu, excellent job of channeling Mac there. You know, THAT Mac. Reminded me of the good ole' days at AV123.

 

[stevo238]

I thought Paul was Mark's man on the ground in China. Paul was overseeing the opening of Mark's last garage.. I mean factory. I believe Paul oversaw the prior factory which didn't work out because of some counterfeit parts. Remember that? Zeng? Paul? The song remains the same.

 

[Chu Gai]

Chu, excellent job of channeling Mac there. You know, THAT Mac. Reminded me of the good ole' days at AV123.

You mean Noubourne is THAT Mac? I had no idea!

I thought Paul was Mark's man on the ground in China. Paul was overseeing the opening of Mark's last garage.. I mean factory. I believe Paul oversaw the prior factory which didn't work out because of some counterfeit parts. Remember that? Zeng? Paul? The song remains the same.

I don't know who Paul is. Shifty has referred to Zeng Ming as Stephen. I've seen a few pictures of a shop where everyone sits in different types of chairs. It looks clean even though most of the equipment is no longer made. I recall him saying how proud he was of it which can only mean what a shite-house the others must've been. Regardless, Mark doesn't have any factories. If he's hanging on to that incompetent Zeng out of self-professed loyalty, it's because with all those trips to China he has no other sources of note. You'd a thunk with all those trips he might've made a couple to the China sourcing fairs but I guess it was more fun to go to the rub and tug businessman relaxation joints.

 

[stevo238]

rub and tug. Priceless!

 

[MinusTheBear]

From a thread entitled New member with 2 new MFWs where the OP has already experienced 5 days of christmas (humming, flapping, unanswered phone calls, suspected driver failure, user manual?). Is this a new wave of fanboys cropping up? One person had to chime in with this comment?

or to rephrase what Silverbullet said with something different in it, "I'd throw a baby under a bus in a heartbeat for a set of Rockets or Line Series!"

speakers or baby. hmmmm.

 

[gonk]

Any time I see a product with that level of "devotion" - even if I own the product and happen to really like - makes me uncomfortable. Some sort of reality check is in order. I mean, seriously, I think the world of my BDP-83 (which actually is a world-class product delivered reliably by a company that truly exhibits good customer support) and am very attached to it, but if I see someone making a post like that about the player I'm going to tell them to get a grip. Maybe in context it was supposed to be funny?

 

[cmryan821]

Any time I see a product with that level of "devotion" - even if I own the product and happen to really like - makes me uncomfortable. Some sort of reality check is in order. I mean, seriously, I think the world of my BDP-83 (which actually is a world-class product delivered reliably by a company that truly exhibits good customer support) and am very attached to it, but if I see someone making a post like that about the player I'm going to tell them to get a grip. Maybe in context it was supposed to be funny?

I completely agree. I just got a new set of speakers and I really really like them but I'm trying to be controlled in my praise for them because I really don't want to wind up sounding like any of the fanboys that seem to be detached from reality.

And I have instructed a good friend of mine to hit me with a baseball bat if I ever get testy with someone over a purchase they made and the company hasn't lived up to their end of the deal.

 

[MinusTheBear]

What speakers did you buy cmryan821?

 

[Tex-amp]

The one common thread in all these business failures - Audio Alchemy, Perpetual Technologies, Genesis - is Schifter. As Michael Corleone said to Moe Green, "You're unlucky."

FWIW, I can't read that reply link.

Audio Alchemy was killed by the company MLS and his partners sold it to.

 

[cmryan821]

What speakers did you buy cmryan821?

I bought some JTR Quintuple 8's and I built an infinite baffle with the help of a friend so pretty much all new speakers except for surrounds which are still axiom qs8's. I really like the JTR's and ib so far but I need to check my exuberance when I post about them. God help me if I ever even joke about "speakers or baby".

I don't spend any time at av123's forums but I have noticed what seem like some new av123 fanboys over at avs, and their responses to the concerns other people have about av123 just infuriates me. I never really took notice of it back when I did go to av123's forums but now that I see some of it as it happens it's just awful. I noticed Chu try to make some reasonable warnings about the mfw's to new members and the fanboys pounced. There aren't many of them but they seem to be capable of questioning the motives of others quite well.

 

[Chu Gai]

Audio Alchemy was killed by the company MLS and his partners sold it to.

AA was found to not be especially profitable. A poor return on the dollar if you will. It was quite liked by stores that it sold to and for the most part it seemed that customers were happy. However, there may've not been enough or the right kind of product sold to justify the expenditures made to develop and market the product as well as pay some of the salaries. Much of the hype there was generated in USENET, which MLS frequented often, rather than the forums we have now. It's difficult to find more information from the other side - the bean counter side - as people are difficult to locate and if found just don't want to talk about it. But having a staff of good engineers costs money and just because someone is a good salesman and marketer does not necessarily equate into being a good businessman. That I think we see with AV123 with the multitude of poor business decisions that've been made and likely taking far more money out of the company than the company itself could generate.

I bought some JTR Quintuple 8's and I built an infinite baffle with the help of a friend so pretty much all new speakers except for surrounds which are still axiom qs8's. I really like the JTR's and ib so far but I need to check my exuberance when I post about them. God help me if I ever even joke about "speakers or baby".

It's good to be satsified and pleased with one's decisions. The individual decision making process is so complex and even undefined although we may think differently. Hence, it's no wonder why different people faced with similar choices buy differently. Fortunately, there are enough good choices out there.

I don't spend any time at av123's forums but I have noticed what seem like some new av123 fanboys over at avs, and their responses to the concerns other people have about av123 just infuriates me. I never really took notice of it back when I did go to av123's forums but now that I see some of it as it happens it's just awful. I noticed Chu try to make some reasonable warnings about the mfw's to new members and the fanboys pounced. There aren't many of them but they seem to be capable of questioning the motives of others quite well.

I don't post at AV123 but I've made comments at AVS. 123 is just about the only ID place on the web whose actions, both good and bad, have been laid out to the extent they have. Having it one sided, either way, is not IMO a healthy way to evaluate something. With respect to the MFW's, there'll always be people who are emminently satisfied. I understand their taking umbrage when someone points out a 180 degree POV as it must in someway be looked upon as suggesting their research or homework skills were poor. While individual experiences are important, looking at them collectively is far more informative.

Humbly and a big man hug out to you all...

 

[MinusTheBear]

Any time I see a product with that level of "devotion" - even if I own the product and happen to really like - makes me uncomfortable. Some sort of reality check is in order. I mean, seriously, I think the world of my BDP-83 (which actually is a world-class product delivered reliably by a company that truly exhibits good customer support) and am very attached to it, but if I see someone making a post like that about the player I'm going to tell them to get a grip. Maybe in context it was supposed to be funny?

Of course it was supposed to be funny, but in context of the thread which should be to help the OP with his subs, comments like that serve no purpose. I should have been more clear on that. There is always so much drivel to sift through to get to good information on products. It is a lot better now (maybe because the forum is much slower now?), in the past when a thread was created it could easily get up to 30 pages+ in a matter of hours.

 

[cschang]

It is very interesting seeing the types of perceived personalities (I say perceived because I don't think you can really know somebody by reading posts) that attach themselves to different brands/marketing.

 

[MinusTheBear]

It is very interesting seeing the types of perceived personalities (I say perceived because I don't think you can really know somebody by reading posts) that attach themselves to different brands/marketing.

I think we all suffer from Post-purchase rationalization, but the extent of it varies dramatically for each individual, brand and their marketing.

Post-purchase rationalization is a common phenomenon after people have invested significant time, money, or effort in something to convince themselves that it must have been worth it. Many decisions are made emotionally, and so are often rationalized retrospectively in an attempt to justify the choice.[1]

This rationalization is based on the principle of commitment and the psychological desire to stay consistent to that commitment. Some authorities would also consider this rationalization a manifestation of cognitive dissonance.

[1]^ Joel B. Cohen; Marvin E. Goldberg (August 1970). "The Dissonance Model in Post-Decision Product Evaluation". Journal of Marketing Research 7 (3): 315–321. doi:10.2307/3150288.

I think in the case of audio internet companies, I really believe there is a direct correlation to the company forums/marketing which have a direct impact on the extent of this.

 

[cschang]

Bear...that is a great reference, and I completely agree.

I also wonder about the research process. One negative thing mentioned about any company, would have doing a lot of questioning.

Take the latest drama scenario in MFW thread at AVS with Lhasalover. It is a good example of a patient customer wanting and waiting to get things resolved...and after months, things are still not right, with Schifter forgetting what he promised. Yet, customers, new and old, look past that even though the same thing happens over and over again.