The U.S. lending billions to Brazil for offshore drilling

lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203863204574346610120524166.html
Wouldn't this money be better spent here in the USA?
So, why are we are lending Brazil $Billion$ so they can drill off their shore and create jobs developing their own resources?

What about our jobs and our resources?:confused:
There is probably more research needed to discover the truth about this. I believe Oil is controlled by large corporations. Those corporations are owned by mostly Americans so any benefit to their operation would actually benefit us. The world is becoming more globalized. It will be uncomfortable for many, but it's inevitable in my view.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Isn't Brazil a popular destination for cosmetic surgery vacations?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Why is the Ex-Im bank financing foreign companies? Because that's what the Ex-Im bank does. That's what it was created to do.

Why have we chosen to invest here? Well, it could be for the income (and loan guarentees have zero-out-of pocket... btw, who else would you want to guarentee the loans of but a large, stable company?), or it could be for US strategic interests, or it could be because these loans come with strings that mean jobs for US companies.

http://www.exim.gov/pressrelease_print.cfm/1C3E8A59-FA74-F3CB-3F3E6E44E287C2DA/
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
The question was "Wouldn't this money be better spent here in the USA?"

I didn't intend for the question to become the usual political football.

It's become personal for me; work has been slow for a while, and I'm considering going back to school and changing professions.

So instead of making assumptions as to what the foreign loan "could" mean; I'd rather see it loaned in the USA and help our tax payers, and our economy. (since the monies are derived from taxpayers in the first place)
 
Quickley17

Quickley17

Audioholic
Jerry beat me to it, but the Job of the Ex-Im Bank is to provide financing for US Exports. The Ex-Im made a similar commitment to Pemex (Mexican state-owned oil). The idea of the whole program is to "give" foreign companies money in order to encourage them to buy from US manufacturers, and it isn't exactly optional for them to do that. The money will come back to the US. The Ex-Im is a self-sustaining governement org that regularly develops MORE revenue for US companies than the initial Ex-Im investment.

Ultimately the money IS being spent in the USA, it is just being spent by another country. I understand your concerns for spending and developing within the US, but I'd also say that there are similar programs here in the US. In my industry for example, DOT has awarded 100+ million in grants for ferry projects around the US this year. The Navy is investing in the modernization of Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Maine to maintain the yard's capabilities in order to keep people employed there. Austal, an Australian company, invested almost 90 million to increase capacity and capability of their shipyard in Mobile Alabama, and Fincantieri, an Italian company, is planning to spend 100 million dollars on their two shipyards in Wisconsin for similar purposes.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I understand the purpose of the Ex-Im Bank, and under better economic times I agree with it's purpose, and with funding it.

Brazil's Petrobas is a very large corporation, which should have the resources to get to the oil on its own.
Obama, who has ripped American corporations for their supposed subsidies from American tax policy, now wants our tax dollars to give cash to a Brazilian oil company.

Obama keeps insisting that we cut back on our use of fossil fuels. OK that sounds great to me.
He and/or Congress have blocked exploration of American oil fields off both shores for decades, and Obama insists that we would only keep enabling our oil addiction if we started drilling off of our own coasts. Yet he has no trouble committing $2,000,000,000 of our money for Brazil to drill off its own coast.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
If you don't want this to be "the usual political football", you might consider
1) Not making every other word "Obama", since he's not the topic.
2) Not making the thrust of every other paragraph "this is hypocrisy" when the topic is ostensibly "where best to spend the money".

Since you have done those, I'll take a moment to address some:
There is a difference between a subsidy and a loan. There is a difference between a bail-out and an investment. When you compare this to domestic subsidies, you are being unreasonable. This would better compare to the FRB and its role in the US economy. That's not something that Obama has criticized (making loans available for US companies), and that's the directly related activity.

The discussion over drilling is somewhat apples and oranges as well. I don't see any reason to believe that the Im-Ex bank has chosen this action based on increasing oil production. Rather it seems to be targeted at creating a market for American exports (the task of the Im-Ex bank) and this particular loan happens to be for a company looking to do off-shore drilling.

The Im-Ex loans out lots of money, and I'm sure there are any number of "green energy" projects as well, along with tons of non-energy projects. The short is "invest to make a market for US exports".

Would this money actually be better spent here? On what in particular. Is there a specific multi-national stable US company looking for loans or loan guarantees that you feel are not available? I'm worried that you are basing your argument on this assumption and that it may be entirely false.

Finally, and I say this as someone whose beaches would be impacted by offshore drilling: the issue of off-shore drilling off the US is only economic in the sense that it's negative impact on , for example, tourism in Florida is a factor.

If the reason that Exxon could not drill in the gulf was that it could not secure a loan, then your point would be valid. Since that's not the reason, it's apples-and-oranges.

I'll finish this with one quote that illustrates several of my points:
Yet he has no trouble committing $2,000,000,000 of our money for Brazil to drill off its own coast.
Did Obama personally push for this? I doubt it, so why do you keep mentioning him? Can you show that any money is actually committed? It looks like we are offering loan guarantees, so that's a straw-man. The commitment is intended to make a profit. Do you believe that the government making a profit (and thereby needing less tax-payer money to pay the bills) is a bad thing? Finally, the end focus is to get Brazil to buy US products. Do you think investing to let US companies sell their goods overseas is bad?

Yes, yes: you think that these guarantees somehow mean that some loan won't happen in the US. Can you point me at an example?
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
you might consider
1) Not making every other word "Obama", since he's not the topic.
2) Not making the thrust of every other paragraph "this is hypocrisy" when the topic is ostensibly "where best to spend the money".

I mentioned Obama because he was specifically mentioned in the Wall Street Journal story.
Since Obama was the President that initiated 'Cap And Trade' to discourage the use of fossil fuels, I simply found it a waste of money to loan monies to a foreign corporation, to encourage fossil fuel use.

Would this money actually be better spent here?
Is there a specific multi-national stable US company looking for loans or loan guarantees that you feel are not available?
What specific US company?
Throw a dart at a map of the USA; the country's is in a recession it shouldn't be too hard to find a sector of our industry that could use it.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I mentioned Obama because he was specifically mentioned in the Wall Street Journal story.
The Wall Street Journal editorial was certainly intended as a partisan rant: the "usual political hot potato".

Since Obama was the President that initiated 'Cap And Trade' to discourage the use of fossil fuels, I simply found it a waste of money to loan monies to a foreign corporation, to encourage fossil fuel use.
That's not the purpose of Cap-and-trade at all. The purpose of Cap-and-Trade is to lower pollution.

And as I said: the two are entirely different issues. Cap-and-trade is an environmental discussion. The limits on offshore drilling off the US are as well. The Im-Ex bank is not an environmental group. Further, it's not clear that a lack of funding from the Im-Ex bank would in any way limit offshore oil drilling in Brazil: but it would prevent the US from benefiting as heavily.

Finally, it's not clear to me that Obama is personally even aware of this loan...much less a backer.

What specific US company?
Throw a dart at a map of the USA; the country's is in a recession it shouldn't be too hard to find a sector of our industry that could use it.
Then please do so and tell me which large, stable US company is trying to get loan guarantees and unable to.

I work for a fortune 500 company. We are about a billion in the black and so don't need on. My previous employer was IBM. They aren't in that boat either. Before that I worked for a local manufacturer of plasma-process equipment. They are well funded right now. Before that I was with a rental car company. Don't know where they stand. Before that Fidelity, they get daily loans from the FRB, before that Citi, they do as well. Before that GM, and they obviously received US funding.

So looking through my employment history of the past 15 years I don't find an example. Since it's apparently easy for you to, please offer me a decent one.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
That's not the purpose of Cap-and-trade at all. The purpose of Cap-and-Trade is to lower pollution.
And how would they be lower said pollution? If you don't know that a large component in Cap & Trade is to discourage the use of fossil fuels; we should end this conversation.:rolleyes:


I work for a fortune 500 company. We are about a billion in the black and so don't need on. My previous employer was IBM. They aren't in that boat either. Before that I worked for a local manufacturer of plasma-process equipment. They are well funded right now. Before that I was with a rental car company. Don't know where they stand. Before that Fidelity, they get daily loans from the FRB, before that Citi, they do as well. Before that GM, and they obviously received US funding.

So looking through my employment history of the past 15 years I don't find an example. Since it's apparently easy for you to, please offer me a decent one.
Are you implying that because you're not affected, there is no recession?.... Oh brother:rolleyes:
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
And how would they be lower said pollution? If you don't know that a large component in Cap & Trade is to discourage the use of fossil fuels; we should end this conversation.:rolleyes:
The Im-Ex bank is not involved in Cap-and-Trade. Cap-and-Trade was not a factor that I can see in this decision. Obama, as for as I can tell was not a party in this decision either.

This thread seems to very much be "politics as usual", an attempt to push partisan rhetoric, based on these frequent red-herring comments. :(

Cap-and-Trade has no mention of fossil fuels in its regulations. If I invent a coal power plant that puts out less pollution than an existing plant of any type, then I will benefit from my reduction in carbon emissions. Several of the technologies specificially discussed in relation to C&T, and for which proponents have hoped C&T would spur development in are "carbon sequestering": which would allow the continued used of carbon-emitting industry.

There is no environmental argument directly against the use of fossil fuels. The entire system is based on emissions.

Of course carbon-based fuels, such as oil and coal, do put out carbon emissions. There's a relationship. But, as mentioned above, C&T only incentives the prevention of that pollution. It does not care how that is accomplished. A good example of what can happen was right here in Tampa in the mid 90s... the only time the EPA had the power to force companies to lower emissions. TECO (now Progress Energy), was forced to lower emissions from their power-plants here in the bay. They did convert one diesel plant to natural gas. On the other, they put a second set of generators (powered by the exhaust gasses) which not only lowered emissions (by allowing the soot to precipitate) but raised fuel efficiency. TECO saved enough in fuel costs to fund the upgrades... and both plants are still on fossil fuels.

Are you implying that because you're not affected, there is no recession?.... Oh brother:rolleyes:
No. I asked you to provide an example. You just said that they were everywhere. I didn't imply, but rather showed that I didn't have an easy time coming up with one. I again asked you to provide one.

Why haven't you provided an example? Since your OP is arguing that these loans would be better used on domestic companies: what is an example of a similarly large, similarly stable domestic company in need of loan guarantees but unable to get them?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
You can see some of the results of what I discussed above on the following page.
http://www.epa.gov/captrade/maps/co2.html

This is after the changes were in-progress. Notice the sharp drop in Tampa's circle in the first couple years and the retention of the lower value.
 
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