Just cannot get it sounding right

[Hrdluck13]

Hello everyone,
I have had some issues since moving with getting my set up sounding "good".. Honestly, it has never sounded as good as others have clained. My old Panny HTIB sounds better..

My equipment is; Onkyo 606, Energy Take classics and a ESW-10 sub..

It seems like the speakers just cannot sound loud or very clean. I have ran Audyssey 10 times and made all sorts of tweaks and adjustments.. My room is open at 18x18. Hard wood floors and I have a large sectional in the room. The L/R speakers sit 5ft apart..

I know this room is large for small speakers. My buddy has the same set up (yamaha 663) and similar room and they sound NIGHT AND DAY better..

Thanks in advance for your opinions and tips..

Hrdluck13

 

[KEW]

I cannot help as I have no familiarity with those speakers outside of knowing they have a decent reputation.
However, how high is your ceiling and is this room open to other spaces.

Of course, it may make sense to swap your components into your buddy's system so you can determine if it is your room or your equipment that is the problem.
If you determine it is your room, you can get some good direction here - but you'll have to do some work up front providing detailed description, layout drawing, and/or photos.
Good luck!

 

[Yes]

Some receiver don't work well with some speakers and vice versa. One of the reasons for this is that amplifiers tend to have a "sound signature" or put more simply they tend to not be perfectly flat across the whole frequency band and produce the same amount of detail and even the same amount of power over the whole frequency band. And of course speakers are the same but to an even worse degree. Onkyo amps are somewhat lower frequency dominant similiar to harman kardon,and your speakers are small and have no bass to speak of but a detailed top end-while the onkyo's have a somewhat smooth sounding midrange and slightly rolled off top end. SO you either need to get speakers with a bigger woofer or a new receiver. my favorite speakers at the moment are cerwin vega-i recently made the mistake of buying one of these "secret deal" speakers that seemd great on paper (actually the are the same as the current emp floorstanders that this site is hyping but with different midrange and tweeter)-bass is lumpy and not detailed and midrange and treble are ok but not super duper at all. If you need smaller speakers I would recommend ascend acoustics-i recently bought some and although they are also a little rolled off on top they sounded best when i used them with my onkyo 2 ch recent model receiver. if you're going for larger speakers I really recommend the cerwin vega ve series floorstanders which sell for $350 online from A1. As a reference I have also used B&W,monitor audio,wharfedale,and some others as well-I like all those but in my experience what is most satisfying for most people in most situations is a speaker that is detailed and has good bass(tight bass that has detail and a decent amount of depth). Most speakers don't use a big enough or powerful enough woofer to provide what I call good bass-that doesn't mean they are all bad just that you will get varying levels of bass quality-for example wharfedale is pretty good but not quite as tight or detailed as cerwin vega (and wharfedales sound overly smooth with some amps like denons in my experience and also don't always work well with every amp and the are somewhat dark sounding speakers-although that was just the sp-87 model I used)-monitor audio's are good but unless you get the expensive big floorstanders you're not going to get tons of bass and they have a minor "metal" sound from the metal drivers (it's minor though) and they are very open sounding-really the only thing against them is price and not being perfectly even sounding as they focus more on the midrange imo.And B&W's I have a pair of older one's (10years old lowest model but I've heard many more)-they are well made speakers with an even sound and great midrange detail but they don't "rock" as well as other speakers imo (like cerwin vegas). So-trust me you will be very happy with either ascend sp's (and I have the "monitor's but I would suggest the lowest model because they probably have a bit more bass and unless you are a major audio nut you don't need the "precision" of the monitors (I actually wish I had purchased the lower model) because the monitors do not have enough bass for me-I have heard the montitors I purchased have more detail though so it really comes down to deciding on how much you want to spend and what you're looking for in sound-just keep in mind that for your large listening space you might want a tiny bump in bass from the extra woofer space in the begining model. And if you want to make sure you have enough bass and your budget is bigger buy the cerin vega ve series 12in woofer model (I don't like horn speakers so I would not recommend cerwin vega horn speakers btw-although in a large space they could definitely send the sound around which might be good if you need to send the sound to the other end of the room). If you decide to change your amp instead I would suggest pioneer or maybe yamaha (yamaha is my favorite receiver,although marantz is a little more "high end" sounding and denon also sounds good but i worry about denon and marantz reliability right or wrong-and that may be wrong especially if you buy an extended warranty or whatever)-denon would probably sound good with your energys-pioneer would sound exciting with the energys,marantz would give lots of details--in your case because of your big room I think your money is best spent on new speakers but if you want a different receiver instead your best bet would be denon or marantz (marantz sounds better but denon might have a little more oomph and bass for the equivelent priced model)-yamaha may actually be the easiest choice because they're amps are powerful,exciting,and detailed-the just don't have the "high end" sound of the marantz or to a lesser degree the denon.And pioneer would be a good choice if you want an easy to set up and use receiver with a dynamic sound (but it won't be quite as loud or as good sounding as they other 3 IMO)-although the entry level pioneer I heard last year had an exciting and musical sound -although I tend to like the yamaha ever so slightly smoother sound-but you do lose some upper end detail to the pioneer. However I like the sound of marantz amps as good and maybe better than yamaha,but i don't like hot running amps and am very picky so i lean toward cooler running amps like marantz or maybe the midrange yamahas and I think denon still makes cool amps.the onkyo will sound great with the ascend's or the cerwins I guarantee it (the ascends may actually sound a little better,but the cerwins will give you a much louder (in a good way) sound and will sound maybe a touch more "open" but will lose just a touch of the subtelty of the ascends). I think the cerwins are actually the best deal but if subtelty and speaker size is important to you ascends are a great choice. Onkyo's do sound really good in my experience probably just as good if not better in some instances than yamaha-I do believe marantz and maybe denon make the best sounding amps but unless you were to upgrade your speakers to big monitor audio's or something I don't think the difference would necessarilly be that noticeable and in fact if you just want a good sounding system the onkyo will sound fine to great with the proper speakers like the ones I've mentioned.

 

[skers_54]

You have a couple of things going on. First, your room is way too big for those speakers and especially the subwoofer. Audyssey might be trying to compensate for this, resulting in poor sound. If you haven't, turn off the Audyssey EQ (keep the levels and delays) and try that out. If it sounds ok, then the Audyssey processing is your problem.

The second issue is the placement of your speakers. Having your front speakers so close essentially makes them act like a mono source. This will cause comb filtering (makes the FR look like a comb with a set of peaks and valleys) when two or more speakers are active. Their proximity will also make any spatial effects (pans, person entering a room, etc.) difficult to discern, contributing to a boring sound.

Give these things a try and let us know the results. I think this may be an issue of Audyssey not playing nice, but it could be placement-related too. What levels does Audyssey set your speakers at? How are your speakers supported (stands, wall-mounted, etc) and how far from the walls and floor are they? As mentioned above, you might also consider trying your friend's Yammy. That, however, will only tell you if your Onkyo is broken (receivers sound the same with processing disabled).

 

[fredk]

I think KEW has a very good suggestion on swapping with your buddy.

More detail on your setup is also a good suggestion. How far do you sit from your speakers when you listen? How loud do you listen? What is the volume setting on your receiver compared to your friend?

 

[m_vanmeter]

"skers" comments are right on target. The front L & R speakers need to be on a approximate equilateral triangle with the listening position. Unless you are sitting about 5 or 6 feet from the speakers, they are way too close and way too small for the room.

Try resetting your receiver to "factory default" to clear out all the Audyssey settings, move your front speakers further apart and just listen to the default settings before you try any real adjustments....see what the system sounds like at a base level setting. But ultimately, I think you need to consider the Take 5's for a smaller den or occasional room setting and get some speakers with the size to deal with your room. Even when you have done all this, room acoustics (large room, hardwood floors) are going to be a constant nagging problem without some consideration of acoustical treatments..or your choice of rugs and furniture to "soften" the room acoustically.

good luck

 

[Seth=L]

Some receiver don't work well with some speakers and vice versa. One of the reasons for this is that amplifiers tend to have a "sound signature" or put more simply they tend to not be perfectly flat across the whole frequency band and produce the same amount of detail and even the same amount of power over the whole frequency band. And of course speakers are the same but to an even worse degree. Onkyo amps are somewhat lower frequency dominant similiar to harman kardon,and your speakers are small and have no bass to speak of but a detailed top end-while the onkyo's have a somewhat smooth sounding midrange and slightly rolled off top end...and more rambling about completely unfounded nonsense

Did you ask me if you were wrong?

Dude, paragraphs! Also, receivers not being flat??, maybe back in the 50's, but not really so much now. Cerwin Vega makes some of the most inaccurate speakers out there. They are loud, bass heavy, bright, and efficient. If OP wants loud, bass heavy, bright, and efficient then maybe that's the way to go. However, to compare CV in an accuracy contest to even the EMP speakers and especially B&W is just flat out incorrect.

Also, I've never heard anyone ever say that Onkyo is bass heavy with a rolled off top end. If anything people associate Onkyo with cold and analytical (which would probably make them accurate). Of course that's just the word around the biased opinion campfire.

So if you did ask if you were wrong; the answer is, yes, you are wrong.

Ha ha, poor application of a pun, ha ha

 

[fredk]

Also, receivers not being flat??

I checked mine and the top is perfectly flat!

Seth, you read all that? I gave up after the first sentence.

 

[Seth=L]

I checked mine and the top is perfectly flat!

Seth, you read all that? I gave up after the first sentence.

I read about half of it. I suppose there's an off chance that at the end he said it was all meant to be a funny joke, but that's just not something to joke around about. This is serious business.

 

[anamorphic96]

Some receiver don't work well with some speakers and vice versa. One of the reasons for this is that amplifiers tend to have a "sound signature" or put more simply they tend to not be perfectly flat across the whole frequency band and produce the same amount of detail and even the same amount of power over the whole frequency band. And of course speakers are the same but to an even worse degree. Onkyo amps are somewhat lower frequency dominant similiar to harman kardon,and your speakers are small and have no bass to speak of but a detailed top end-while the onkyo's have a somewhat smooth sounding midrange and slightly rolled off top end. SO you either need to get speakers with a bigger woofer or a new receiver. my favorite speakers at the moment are cerwin vega-i recently made the mistake of buying one of these "secret deal" speakers that seemd great on paper (actually the are the same as the current emp floorstanders that this site is hyping but with different midrange and tweeter)-bass is lumpy and not detailed and midrange and treble are ok but not super duper at all. If you need smaller speakers I would recommend ascend acoustics-i recently bought some and although they are also a little rolled off on top they sounded best when i used them with my onkyo 2 ch recent model receiver. if you're going for larger speakers I really recommend the cerwin vega ve series floorstanders which sell for $350 online from A1. As a reference I have also used B&W,monitor audio,wharfedale,and some others as well-I like all those but in my experience what is most satisfying for most people in most situations is a speaker that is detailed and has good bass(tight bass that has detail and a decent amount of depth). Most speakers don't use a big enough or powerful enough woofer to provide what I call good bass-that doesn't mean they are all bad just that you will get varying levels of bass quality-for example wharfedale is pretty good but not quite as tight or detailed as cerwin vega (and wharfedales sound overly smooth with some amps like denons in my experience and also don't always work well with every amp and the are somewhat dark sounding speakers-although that was just the sp-87 model I used)-monitor audio's are good but unless you get the expensive big floorstanders you're not going to get tons of bass and they have a minor "metal" sound from the metal drivers (it's minor though) and they are very open sounding-really the only thing against them is price and not being perfectly even sounding as they focus more on the midrange imo.And B&W's I have a pair of older one's (10years old lowest model but I've heard many more)-they are well made speakers with an even sound and great midrange detail but they don't "rock" as well as other speakers imo (like cerwin vegas). So-trust me you will be very happy with either ascend sp's (and I have the "monitor's but I would suggest the lowest model because they probably have a bit more bass and unless you are a major audio nut you don't need the "precision" of the monitors (I actually wish I had purchased the lower model) because the monitors do not have enough bass for me-I have heard the montitors I purchased have more detail though so it really comes down to deciding on how much you want to spend and what you're looking for in sound-just keep in mind that for your large listening space you might want a tiny bump in bass from the extra woofer space in the begining model. And if you want to make sure you have enough bass and your budget is bigger buy the cerin vega ve series 12in woofer model (I don't like horn speakers so I would not recommend cerwin vega horn speakers btw-although in a large space they could definitely send the sound around which might be good if you need to send the sound to the other end of the room). If you decide to change your amp instead I would suggest pioneer or maybe yamaha (yamaha is my favorite receiver,although marantz is a little more "high end" sounding and denon also sounds good but i worry about denon and marantz reliability right or wrong-and that may be wrong especially if you buy an extended warranty or whatever)-denon would probably sound good with your energys-pioneer would sound exciting with the energys,marantz would give lots of details--in your case because of your big room I think your money is best spent on new speakers but if you want a different receiver instead your best bet would be denon or marantz (marantz sounds better but denon might have a little more oomph and bass for the equivelent priced model)-yamaha may actually be the easiest choice because they're amps are powerful,exciting,and detailed-the just don't have the "high end" sound of the marantz or to a lesser degree the denon.And pioneer would be a good choice if you want an easy to set up and use receiver with a dynamic sound (but it won't be quite as loud or as good sounding as they other 3 IMO)-although the entry level pioneer I heard last year had an exciting and musical sound -although I tend to like the yamaha ever so slightly smoother sound-but you do lose some upper end detail to the pioneer. However I like the sound of marantz amps as good and maybe better than yamaha,but i don't like hot running amps and am very picky so i lean toward cooler running amps like marantz or maybe the midrange yamahas and I think denon still makes cool amps.the onkyo will sound great with the ascend's or the cerwins I guarantee it (the ascends may actually sound a little better,but the cerwins will give you a much louder (in a good way) sound and will sound maybe a touch more "open" but will lose just a touch of the subtelty of the ascends). I think the cerwins are actually the best deal but if subtelty and speaker size is important to you ascends are a great choice. Onkyo's do sound really good in my experience probably just as good if not better in some instances than yamaha-I do believe marantz and maybe denon make the best sounding amps but unless you were to upgrade your speakers to big monitor audio's or something I don't think the difference would necessarilly be that noticeable and in fact if you just want a good sounding system the onkyo will sound fine to great with the proper speakers like the ones I've mentioned.

Put down the crack pipe and come back to planet earth. You are so full of sh#t it's ridiculous.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I checked mine and the top is perfectly flat!
...

Better check the other sides too. One may not be flan an then you are in big trouble.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hello everyone,
I have had some issues since moving with getting my set up sounding "good".. Honestly, it has never sounded as good as others have clained. My old Panny HTIB sounds better..

My equipment is; Onkyo 606, Energy Take classics and a ESW-10 sub..

It seems like the speakers just cannot sound loud or very clean. I have ran Audyssey 10 times and made all sorts of tweaks and adjustments.. My room is open at 18x18. Hard wood floors and I have a large sectional in the room. The L/R speakers sit 5ft apart..

I know this room is large for small speakers. My buddy has the same set up (yamaha 663) and similar room and they sound NIGHT AND DAY better..

Thanks in advance for your opinions and tips..

Hrdluck13

You moved and changed your listening room in every way possible. No wonder it sounds so different, not to mention the memory factor how exactly different it is.

Do you still have that HTIB? try it in your new room. If you like it, use it and enjoy; end of that story.

I bet your buddy's setup IS different

 

[Exit]

Here is something to ponder. Buy the biggest honking SVS subwoofer and put it next to the front speakers. Set the crossover as high as you can. You should get plenty of bass and and you should get much less distortion out of your amp and woofers. You may get by without upgrading your whole sound system. I did.

 

[Hrdluck13]

I think KEW has a very good suggestion on swapping with your buddy.

More detail on your setup is also a good suggestion. How far do you sit from your speakers when you listen? How loud do you listen? What is the volume setting on your receiver compared to your friend?

I sit 8-12 feet (depending which couch I am on). The speakers are on top of a media cabinet. I usually listen at 20-30 volume..

I believe my friend listen to his receiver around the same volumes..

 

[Hrdluck13]

I appreciate everybody's feedback. I reset all setting on the Receiver and re-ran Audyssey. I also switched Audyssey off.. Still, no difference. One thing I do have is the "intellivolume" turned up to 8.. Audyssey crossed over the speakers at 100hz and the LPF of LFE is 120hz

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Seth, you read all that? I gave up after the first sentence.

I didn't even read one word of it.

I would say the issues are purely related to 1) speaker placement, 2) room acoustics, or 3) the speakers themselves.

I would also turn OFF any kind of EQs (Audyssey) to begin with.

Speakers don't match with receivers?

Well, maybe if the receiver were defective.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Put down the crack pipe and come back to planet earth. You are so full of sh#t it's ridiculous.

Obviously, the guy (anamorphic96) flunked English.

 

[Yes]

Whoops

Okay seriously is there no way to edit or remove my post ? I think someone did slip a crazy pill in my drink before I posted that-or maybe it was crack. Hopefully not too many people will read it and go crazy. I will clear up my opinions and errors though. You are correct pretty much all receivers do have flat frequency response so what I was really referring to was an amplifiers "sound" which can be attributed to the amplifier "topology" or basic design and the different quality of parts used in different amplifiers. I also think I made a mistake when I said onkyo amps are "bass heavy" because I was actually thinking of an onkyo amp I owned briefly more than 10 years ago and my current onkyo 50w stereo and 100w integra that I own both sound simply flat (in a VERY good way) as someone suggested. Now as far as speakers here is what I was trying to say,albeit in the craziest way possible. I think a speaker having deep,tight,and arguably a "clear" bass sound is one of if not the most important aspects of how "enjoyable" a speaker will be in the long run (which is not the same as how accurate a speaker is as far as frequency response or detail-although personally I look for detail as the first or second most important aspect of a speakers sound). As a side not there are a lot of different aspects to judging a speakers basic sound as well as the amount of detail it can give you-one way I judge is by seeing if I can easily hear what a performer is actually saying (that is understand every word) which for me is often difficult especially with rock music and other kinds of music-could be my hearing. Anyway I do think cerwin vega speakers are underrated because they don't have a perfectly flat frequency response but as far as listening enjoyment I think they deserve more respect-I am considering purchasing the cerwin vega ve floorstanders for myself and my family after using many bookshelf speakers that simply don't have enough bass or detail to satisfy me (bass is the wrong word however because what I am actually looking for is FAST bass which comes from the cerwin 12 in woofer with a large magnet and I am also not really looking for the DEEPEST bass but more especially the mid-bass sounds that I can hear). I hope that clears some things up although I realize this post is long too. To finish I would also like to say that because cerwin vega speakers are not the smoothest or the best technically speaking I could understand why some might not like them (and in fact I have not made up my mind completely either)-but that awesome 12in woofer and decent midrange and tweeter (I said decent,not the absolute best) is hard to beat for the money at least. If someone is worried about the cerwins not being accurate enough or smooth sounding I would recommend the following speakers from least expensive to most expensive (roughly)-Bic,wharfedale,ascend acoustics,monitor audio. there are also many others which I have not used personally but which I'm sure are great such as Psb and maybe svs (although I think I've ruled them out for myself afte reading that they are low impedance,and I suspect ascends might be better anyway-although I'm still curious what they sound like)-I know there are many more speakers as well but I can't think of any more right now (duh) but at least this post is done right hahaha (boston acoustics is another choice).

 

[JerryLove]

Paragraphs please.

You are correct pretty much all receivers do have flat frequency response so what I was really referring to was an amplifiers "sound" which can be attributed to the amplifier "topology" or basic design and the different quality of parts used in different amplifiers.

A properly built amplifier doesn't have a "sound". I should (and can) take two different, correctly built amplifiers, level-match them for volume, and drive two identical speakers without problem.

Mind you: volume matching might be a pain, so I don't recommend doing it.

I think a speaker having deep,tight,and arguably a "clear" bass sound is one of if not the most important aspects of how "enjoyable" a speaker will be in the long run.

In the end, that's going to be subjective.

Anyway I do think cerwin vega speakers are underrated because they don't have a perfectly flat frequency response but as far as listening enjoyment I think they deserve more respect

I find them muddy and irritating. In particular, I find their performance very uneven when I move away from the sweet spot.

what I am actually looking for is FAST bass which comes from the cerwin 12 in woofer with a large magnet and I am also not really looking for the DEEPEST bass but more especially the mid-bass sounds that I can hear).

And you believe "mid Bass" is being put through a 12"? Don't get me wrong, I love the dual 10"s on my Infinity's, but they are definitely low-bass.

 

[DJ in TX]

Okay seriously is there no way to edit or remove my post ? I think someone did slip a crazy pill in my drink before I posted that-or maybe it was crack. Hopefully not too many people will read it and go crazy. I will clear up my opinions and errors though. You are correct pretty much all receivers do have flat frequency response so what I was really referring to was an amplifiers "sound" which can be attributed to the amplifier "topology" or basic design and the different quality of parts used in different amplifiers. I also think I made a mistake when I said onkyo amps are "bass heavy" because I was actually thinking of an onkyo amp I owned briefly more than 10 years ago and my current onkyo 50w stereo and 100w integra that I own both sound simply flat (in a VERY good way) as someone suggested. Now as far as speakers here is what I was trying to say,albeit in the craziest way possible. I think a speaker having deep,tight,and arguably a "clear" bass sound is one of if not the most important aspects of how "enjoyable" a speaker will be in the long run (which is not the same as how accurate a speaker is as far as frequency response or detail-although personally I look for detail as the first or second most important aspect of a speakers sound). As a side not there are a lot of different aspects to judging a speakers basic sound as well as the amount of detail it can give you-one way I judge is by seeing if I can easily hear what a performer is actually saying (that is understand every word) which for me is often difficult especially with rock music and other kinds of music-could be my hearing. Anyway I do think cerwin vega speakers are underrated because they don't have a perfectly flat frequency response but as far as listening enjoyment I think they deserve more respect-I am considering purchasing the cerwin vega ve floorstanders for myself and my family after using many bookshelf speakers that simply don't have enough bass or detail to satisfy me (bass is the wrong word however because what I am actually looking for is FAST bass which comes from the cerwin 12 in woofer with a large magnet and I am also not really looking for the DEEPEST bass but more especially the mid-bass sounds that I can hear). I hope that clears some things up although I realize this post is long too. To finish I would also like to say that because cerwin vega speakers are not the smoothest or the best technically speaking I could understand why some might not like them (and in fact I have not made up my mind completely either)-but that awesome 12in woofer and decent midrange and tweeter (I said decent,not the absolute best) is hard to beat for the money at least. If someone is worried about the cerwins not being accurate enough or smooth sounding I would recommend the following speakers from least expensive to most expensive (roughly)-Bic,wharfedale,ascend acoustics,monitor audio. there are also many others which I have not used personally but which I'm sure are great such as Psb and maybe svs (although I think I've ruled them out for myself afte reading that they are low impedance,and I suspect ascends might be better anyway-although I'm still curious what they sound like)-I know there are many more speakers as well but I can't think of any more right now (duh) but at least this post is done right hahaha (boston acoustics is another choice).

Hi Yes (nice nickname by the way)

Obviously you're two posts in this thread received strong reactions, and I thought I might try to explain why and offer some constructive criticism.

I have found people here to be very accepting and knowledgeable and willing to help. And the fact that you seem to want to help as well is a good thing. There is room for everyone's opinion. However, if you take nothing else from my comment, please understand that it is very frustrating and annoying for other members here to try to read your posts when they are so dense with content and use so little punctuation.

If you were to separate your thoughts into paragraphs that would make it much easier to read, and your points would seem clearer. Also, if you could use punctuation such as perioids "." instead of dashes "-", that would also help us read your comments. The more readable your post, the better it will be received and understood.

I can appreciate that you seem to know at least enough to take part in a discussion. And, your opinions are welcomed here. Just be prepared for people who know much more than you or I to point out the inaccuracies when they occur. It's not so much about calling you out or discrediting you. Rather, it's just a way to clarify and make sure other users don't become confused, especially those who have less experience.

Make sense?