Home Theater Critique/Suggestions Wanted

[DrFunk]

I'd just like some feedback from more knowledgeable people than I about the setup I am currently thinking about i.e., different amp, more amps, do this, look at this, etc. So far:

2 Subwoofers:
http://www.digitalcraze.com/Details.asp?Source=ShopCom&ProductID=784
$3000 (each)

Amps:
http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=3
$4450 (retail) (get 3)

Preamp/Receiver:
http://integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?class=Receiver&m=DTR-9.9&p=i
$2600

Fronts:
B&W 802D (2)

Center:
B&W HTM1D (1)

Rears:
B&W DS8S (4)

Projector: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Pro_Cinema_1080_UB.htm

I suppose the shaky thing I'm about is how many amps/power I need. Any help is appreciated. Almost forgot, if this helps, this system isn't primarily for just music, but movies as well (mostly), in case that makes a difference in choices.

 

[lsiberian]

I'd just like some feedback from more knowledgeable people than I about the setup I am currently thinking about i.e., different amp, more amps, do this, look at this, etc. So far:

2 Subwoofers:
http://www.digitalcraze.com/Details.asp?Source=ShopCom&ProductID=784
$3000 (each)

Amps:
http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=3
$4450 (retail) (get 3)

Preamp/Receiver:
http://integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?class=Receiver&m=DTR-9.9&p=i
$2600

Fronts:
B&W 802D (2)

Center:
B&W HTM1D (1)

Rears:
B&W DS8S (4)

Projector: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Pro_Cinema_1080_UB.htm

I suppose the shaky thing I'm about is how many amps/power I need. Any help is appreciated. Almost forgot, if this helps, this system isn't primarily for just music, but movies as well (mostly), in case that makes a difference in choices.

4450 for amps is just outrageous. Furthermore you are overpaying for the pre-pro. You can get top of the line Onkyo 905/906 for far cheaper.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR905S/Onkyo/Tx-nr905-Thx-Ultra2-140w-X-7ch-Hdmi-Receiver-Silver-/1.html is 850 and is plenty of amp/pre-pro for any setup.

Also you can do better with a pair of Seaton Submersives IMO.

The 800 series is amazing no doubt, but don't sell it short by overpaying for amps/pre-pro

Also what about a screen? Save your money on the amps/pre-processor for stewart screen and you will be glad you did.

I will add if Home theater is the primary goal(90%) then I'd actually go with a JTR based setup for the dynamic benefits.

 

[DrFunk]

I mistakenly put that price just as the base retail. I can actually get it for $3200 or less. For the pre-pro, are there any advantages/disadvantages to going with the Onkyo instead of the Integra i.e., features the Onkyo has/does better? Same question goes for the Seaton Submersive. Not trying to be prying or defending my setup, just want some more info on it. And for the screen, which I also forgot to put in, I was thinking about this: http://www.bettercomputers.com.au/da-lite-cosmopolitan-electrol-133-widescreen-projector-screen~p-549.html (133” diagonal) Also, as I do not have the expertise to properly configure this system, do you/anyone else have ideas on who I could hire to do it for me?


Another Edit: I'm actually starting to like what I see in the Submersives. Interesting find, I've never heard of them before! Thanks for that link.

 

[jostenmeat]

If you go with an AT screen, you can forgo the horiz center, and have a 802 as center, which would be something else.

The most important component of the HT experience is the display. That PJ will be three generations old already this very month.

If you will have a dedicated room that resembles a bat cave, and with the budget you are affording the other components, I would advise going with JVC in for film viewing. However, the Epson will be brighter, cheaper, and still quite an excellent value.

If your budget for video can start to approach what is allocated for the audio side of things, one of the first I'd look into is Sim2, particularly if you need it very bright, and prefer 3DLP for the sharpness.

For arguably better value, depending who you ask, I'd look at JVC though. Whether RS35, 25, 15. The RS25 gets you CMS, which with your budget, you ought to have.

The biggest factor in what you hear is the room. It is over half what you hear. Make sure to treat with necessary absorbers and/or diffusers. 38% of room length is the desired point for best avoidance of axial modes, and the number can drop to 33% with the inclusion of non-axial modes. These numbers are for a closed rectangular room. You want the room to be setup lengthwise.

Darker is better, period, everywhere for a PJ setup.

You have picked excellent components for all of your audio stuff, otherwise. If you want to further splurge on your pre/pro for the hell of it, the Anthem D2v, or for even more money, Denon AVP could be nice to look at and pet adoringly. Still, without the slightest doubt in my mind, I'd upgrade the PJ.

The one you're looking at costs less than any given single audio component you have picked out. Save for perhaps the surrounds, but a pair of those is still more.


For fixed frame screens, Carada will afford you the best value. They don't offer electric or manual pulldowns.

If you want to supersize with a high contrast / low lumens PJ, you might consider Dalite High Power, but the setup requires a narrower viewing cone, with PJ's angle to screen to be similar to those of the viewers to screen.

AT would of course allow the dialogue to be locked to display, with seamless panning, and of course the closest match possible.


If you have the money, there are people who can design the theater from the ground up, HVAC and everything.

 

[DrFunk]

Yes, yet another thing I forgot to mention. (Why do I do that?) I am planning to have a completely seperate room from the house (a basement of sorts, but it will only contain my HT) designed only for the HT. I'm surprised about the PJ, but will definitely look into others.

EDIT: Upon further looking, I think I'll get an AT screen (AT-3 series) and either the JVC RS35 or the SIM2 C3X Lumis. The JVC has far less lumens, but that shouldn't be much of an issue, as the HT will be in a completely seperate room/part of the house, and underground no less. Although I think the throw ratio is a little better in the SIM2 PJ.

 

[Boerd]

4450 for amps is just outrageous. Furthermore you are overpaying for the pre-pro. You can get top of the line Onkyo 905/906 for far cheaper.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR905S/Onkyo/Tx-nr905-Thx-Ultra2-140w-X-7ch-Hdmi-Receiver-Silver-/1.html is 850 and is plenty of amp/pre-pro for any setup.

Also you can do better with a pair of Seaton Submersives IMO.

The 800 series is amazing no doubt, but don't sell it short by overpaying for amps/pre-pro

Also what about a screen? Save your money on the amps/pre-processor for stewart screen and you will be glad you did.

I will add if Home theater is the primary goal(90%) then I'd actually go with a JTR based setup for the dynamic benefits.

Agreed 100% with you. Most of the time the "mid-fi" amplifier/preamplifier is even better than the "audiophile" ones simply because they use known technologies/parts.
I would NEVER buy "high-end" amps/preamps; I'd better put that money into either speakers or a HDTV (or both).

 

[JerryLove]

The JVC-line has an excellent rep as a projector around here, and I echo the "don't forget a good screen". I agree that it's easy to over-spend on the amps and even pre-amp, though I love your speaker choice (802D and 800D are on my dreamlist). Oh to have that budget.

 

[MidnightSensi]

For the pre-amplifier, you should get the latest model, which is the Integra DHC-80.1.

The Sunfire amplifier I actually think is really nice, just shop it hard. Don't take their first offer.

I agree with josten on the projector.

 

[bandphan]

Agree with all of the above. The seatons for subs or Danley Sound Labs would be the way to go

 

[shadyJ]

Have you considered Seaton Catalyst speakers also? They look like fantastic speakers, and they have their own amplifier built in. I would look into a Seaton Catalyst front stage, and Seaton Spark surrounds.

 

[JerryLove]

Have you considered Seaton Catalyst speakers also? They look like fantastic speakers, and they have their own amplifier built in. I would look into a Seaton Catalyst front stage, and Seaton Spark surrounds.

Really? A 2-way with an 8" tweeter/mid?

Never heard of them before. What experience makes you prefer them to the 802D?

 

[bandphan]

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3044980#1

There are several members here and at AVS that have experience with both lines and alot pefer the catalyst. Mark is a heck of a builder.

 

[lsiberian]

I mistakenly put that price just as the base retail. I can actually get it for $3200 or less. For the pre-pro, are there any advantages/disadvantages to going with the Onkyo instead of the Integra i.e., features the Onkyo has/does better? Same question goes for the Seaton Submersive. Not trying to be prying or defending my setup, just want some more info on it. And for the screen, which I also forgot to put in, I was thinking about this: http://www.bettercomputers.com.au/da-lite-cosmopolitan-electrol-133-widescreen-projector-screen~p-549.html (133” diagonal) Also, as I do not have the expertise to properly configure this system, do you/anyone else have ideas on who I could hire to do it for me?


Another Edit: I'm actually starting to like what I see in the Submersives. Interesting find, I've never heard of them before! Thanks for that link.

The Onkyo 900 series is essentially the same pre-pro with an amp section slapped on the back. They are from the same company just different brand names.

I don't know about an AT screen since you will sacrifice some picture quality usually. I've not measured enough screens to tell you viable alternatives.

If you want to save some funds a custom screen built with do-able vinyl panel or Wilson art designer white panel measures comparably to a carada screen. This is according to Wbasset at home theater shack(an expert on screen materials). Custom subs would also net you better performance/price than commercial ones. I'd suggest a single Maelstrom 21" custom ported build as a viable option for a great home theater sub in your budget or the seaton submerssive if you are scared of custom.. In your situation you have many options and for 3000 you can get a cabinet maker to build a high quality sub that would beat even the submerssives.

For loudspeakers custom isn't the way to go unless you are doing it for pure fun. For home theater you don't need to sonic quality of the B&W system and would be better putting that money into sound treatments, seating, PJ/Screen and subwoofer. Movies are more about dynamics and less about accuracy. I'm not saying you'd be a fool to put a B&W system in. I just want you to know that it isn't critical to spend that kind of change.

My recommended setup for you.
In order of relative importance.
JVC RS25 projector paired with (a Carada Brillaint white screen or custom screen) Display is everything make it your priority.

JTR Triple 8 speakers paired with( a custom sub build or a seaton submerssive) Speakers are next I like dynamic speakers for a home theater.

An Onkyo 905/906 you gotta drive the speakers

GIK room kit package #4

If you got a great deal on the B&W's you can't go wrong with them either.

On an big budget I'd do the above setup for a home theater.

Make sure to get some good comfortable seating and a good universal remote setup. Also paint the room in dark tone and hang some curtains to give it the movie feel.





A DCX 2496 and a pair of Yamaha P2500 amps

 

[JerryLove]

For home theater you don't need to sonic quality of the B&W system and would be better putting that money into sound treatments, seating, PJ/Screen and subwoofer.

Nope. He's calling you a fool. You can only redeem yourself by getting rid of the 802s to make way for some lesser speakers. Since *someone* has to end up with the 802s, I'll "take one for the team". Let me send you my shipping address.

That said, ISiberian expands on a good point: the right tool for the right job. You definitely won't go wrong with 802s; but like all purchases where budges are limited: the trick is maximizing return on spending. A lesser speaker in a better room may benefit you.

 

[jostenmeat]

Yes, yet another thing I forgot to mention. (Why do I do that?) I am planning to have a completely seperate room from the house (a basement of sorts, but it will only contain my HT) designed only for the HT. I'm surprised about the PJ, but will definitely look into others.

Thank you for sharing that info, but I don't think it changes a single piece of advice given in this thread.

Upon further looking, I think I'll get an AT screen (AT-3 series) and either the JVC RS35 or the SIM2 C3X Lumis. The JVC has far less lumens, but that shouldn't be much of an issue, as the HT will be in a completely seperate room/part of the house, and underground no less. Although I think the throw ratio is a little better in the SIM2 PJ.

It's not just light control that matters, DrFunk. It's your screen size. The Sim2 would be desired for top notch PQ on a +200" diagonal screen. The JVC could only compete in black detail/levels for a while there, and now with the implemented CMS, I guess color accuracy is moot. The Sim2 should be better in every other category, I suspect. The problem is the $38,000 price tag.

I got away with a large screen, with more typical lumens, by using that Dalite HP material. Looks amazing, but it does include important compromises.

So, figure out the screen size you desire. To do so, first figure out the distances of seating. Then also the native aspect ratio of the screen. Then consider the sources you will feed (native hidef only?). Use a calculator like this for the THX angle as a starting point. Note that you can use that for 16:9, but if you're thinking CIH, you can and will most likely desire greater viewing angle, with wider ARs.

After all of that, and most importantly IMO, get the PJ first and fire it at the blank wall for final decision.

As for AT materials, I don't know what AT3 is, maybe you can link it. One of the first I think of is Seymour, and you can see that attached Audioholics article on that page (which Seymour himself wrote).

They are a popular choice for the DIY material, but of course you can still get them as fixed frame, etc. Basspig did the DIY with this stuff, and here are his remarks.

Just for reference, this guy converted an existing screen to AT, with the Seymour.

I also think of SmX, but I'm not sure how it compares, either in quality, nor price. Here are some impressive pics of the screen in action, in a converted garage.

 

[DrFunk]

Wow, some really great info here! I'm now debating on screens between the AT or a Carada. As for AR, I'm planning on going 2.35 Here's the link to the Carada I'm thinking of: http://www.carada.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=PROJECTION-SCREEN-C136C

And here's the AT: http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/residential/products/fixed_screens/at_series_frames/at_series_frames_residential.html

AT-3 series, you have to scroll down a bit. Kind of leaning towards Carada. I think I'm also going to forgo the Sim2 PJ and get the JVC.

 

[AVRat]

FYI, AT screen means acoustically transparent so that speakers can be placed behind the screen.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Agree with all of the above. The seatons for subs or Danley Sound Labs would be the way to go

Danley TH-50s.

Fit through a standard door too.

 

[jostenmeat]

Wow, some really great info here! I'm now debating on screens between the AT or a Carada. As for AR, I'm planning on going 2.35 Here's the link to the Carada I'm thinking of: http://www.carada.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=PROJECTION-SCREEN-C136C

And here's the AT: http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/residential/products/fixed_screens/at_series_frames/at_series_frames_residential.html

AT-3 series, you have to scroll down a bit. Kind of leaning towards Carada. I think I'm also going to forgo the Sim2 PJ and get the JVC.

Honestly, you should really figure out the layout first. The width of viewers, number of rows, screen size.

A JVC will hit its limits if you go huge (outside of using a retroreflector like I do). Then again, Sherardp is using a 133" Carada with RS10 I believe. But, is that representative of your desired screen size? If you're thinking bigger, you need to think about lumens, or other solutions.

The smaller the screen might be, the more AT could work well since optical coatings might not be as needed. OTOH, the bigger you go, the AT will also allow better center speaker placement.

Very Important Question To Answer: How big is the screen going to be?

 

[DrFunk]

All right, a little layout:

Room will be 30'x30' and 15' high.
Door leading to room will be in the far back-right corner, and wil be 10' wide and 8' tall.
Screen is centered on the middle of the front wall. (Hypothetically 133" diagonal screen)
View distance: 15' at a 36 degree view angle

Chairs will be (naturally, as above) 15' from the screen and rows are centered on the screen.
2 Rows of 4 chairs per row.
1' spacing in between chairs.
Rows are 17' long.
From the 2nd row to the back of the room, it is 8'.

Rough sketch done in CAD: http://i33.tinypic.com/s58spf.png