New way to bust snake oil salesmen and audio myths

[jinjuku]

Cables can sound different. Silver has different electrical properties than copper. I expect those differences to change the signal they carry.

I suspect manufactures can intentionally make a cable sound different. Then they go on to market those differences.

But just like everything else in the signal path interconnects should only do one thing: Reproduce faithfully (good or bad) the source material.

Just like any clean and linear amp (a straight line with gain) should sound comparable at same levels, not all amps are designed this way and will therefore exhibit their own differences. Are those differences audible? Are they better/worse or just 'meh'.

It all comes down to "if it sounds different it should be measurable". Thanks for the link!

** I suspect that my Parasound HCA 1000a and Behringer A500 will sound very similar.

 

[njedpx3]

Cables/ wires are so so misunderstood

Cables can sound different. Silver has different electrical properties than copper. I expect those differences to change the signal they carry.

I suspect manufactures can intentionally make a cable sound different. Then they go on to market those differences.
.....

I must have missed the icon silver has less resistance for the same size cable ..period


SPECIFIC RESISTANCE AT 20 DEGREES CELSIUS

Material Element/Alloy (ohm-cmil/ft) (microohm-cm)
==========================================================
Nichrome ------ Alloy --------------- 675 ----------- 112.2
Nichrome V ---- Alloy --------------- 650 ----------- 108.1
Manganin ------ Alloy --------------- 290 ----------- 48.21
Constantan ---- Alloy --------------- 272.97 -------- 45.38
Steel* -------- Alloy --------------- 100 ----------- 16.62
Platinum ----- Element -------------- 63.16 --------- 10.5
Iron --------- Element -------------- 57.81 --------- 9.61
Nickel ------- Element -------------- 41.69 --------- 6.93
Zinc --------- Element -------------- 35.49 --------- 5.90
Molybdenum — Element -------------- 32.12 --------- 5.34
Tungsten ----- Element -------------- 31.76 --------- 5.28
Aluminum ----- Element -------------- 15.94 --------- 2.650
Gold --------- Element -------------- 13.32 --------- 2.214
Copper ------- Element -------------- 10.09 --------- 1.678
Silver ------- Element -------------- 9.546 --------- 1.587


How can cable manufacturers "intentionally make a cable sound different? This just is not possible! unless I missed the "amplified" cable JOKE .

Cables/wires are passive and their only metric is ohmns (resistance) so it just isn't possible for a cable/wire to add to, subtract from, change or modify the audio electrical signal.

Asthestics and physical quality/strength do little to change electrical properties.

Shielding comes into to play minimally twisted pair, coaxial conductors, extra metal shielding.

Cables/wires is a whole myth/snake oil area in itself right up there with extended warranties and protection/replacement plans



Peace to All,

Forest Man

 

[jinjuku]

I must have missed the icon silver has less resistance for the same size cable ..period


SPECIFIC RESISTANCE AT 20 DEGREES CELSIUS

Material Element/Alloy (ohm-cmil/ft) (microohm-cm)
==========================================================
Nichrome ------ Alloy --------------- 675 ----------- 112.2
Nichrome V ---- Alloy --------------- 650 ----------- 108.1
Manganin ------ Alloy --------------- 290 ----------- 48.21
Constantan ---- Alloy --------------- 272.97 -------- 45.38
Steel* -------- Alloy --------------- 100 ----------- 16.62
Platinum ----- Element -------------- 63.16 --------- 10.5
Iron --------- Element -------------- 57.81 --------- 9.61
Nickel ------- Element -------------- 41.69 --------- 6.93
Zinc --------- Element -------------- 35.49 --------- 5.90
Molybdenum — Element -------------- 32.12 --------- 5.34
Tungsten ----- Element -------------- 31.76 --------- 5.28
Aluminum ----- Element -------------- 15.94 --------- 2.650
Gold --------- Element -------------- 13.32 --------- 2.214
Copper ------- Element -------------- 10.09 --------- 1.678
Silver ------- Element -------------- 9.546 --------- 1.587


How can cable manufacturers "intentionally make a cable sound different? This just is not possible! unless I missed the "amplified" cable JOKE .

Cables/wires are passive and their only metric is ohmns (resistance) so it just isn't possible for a cable/wire to add to, subtract from, change or modify the audio electrical signal.

Aesthetics and physical quality/strength do little to change electrical properties.

Shielding comes into to play minimally twisted pair, coaxial conductors, extra metal shielding.

Cables/wires is a whole myth/snake oil area in itself right up there with extended warranties and protection/replacement plans



Peace to All,

Forest Man

I thought there was resistance, inductance, capacitance? Examples of making a cable sound different: MIT with their LCR network boxes. Although I hate to call those cables.

All I am saying is if those values are different enough they could affect the sound. Now whether you can hear it or not is another matter.

Now do I believe the Signal vs Kimber vs BJC vs Audio Quest will sound different with their copper IC's and terminations. No. No I don't. Especially over 3 foot runs.

 

[highfigh]

Cables/wires is a whole myth/snake oil area in itself right up there with extended warranties and protection/replacement plans
Peace to All,

Forest Man

Since you mentioned it, I'll point out that the cost to replace a plasma or LCD screen is much higher than buying a new one. If the choice is "You can buy an extended warranty for a few hundred dollars or pay $3000 to replace the screen after the warranty is up", what will you do- add more to a landfill and take the "everything is disposable" route or have a working TV for a few hundred dollars.

TV manufacturers aren't in business to make replacement parts.

Also, tests have shown that some cables have different electrical characteristics and therefore, comparing those that are different from the group that have more similar values will sound different. Most sound the same or good enough that they don't need to be replaced and I agree on that point. However, I have heard differences in cables but it was usually from switching to a garbage A/V with right/left/composite leads being replaced by something a bit better. I haven't tested the ones that were connecting my music server to my amp yet but I think I heard a difference after putting my system in a new rack two nights ago and using a different set. I liked the sound before, though, and had no complaints at all. The replacements had been used for my CD and DVD players but I subbed a different set for the DVD player when I put the equipment back in.

Maybe the new rack is why it sounds different. I'll go with that.

 

[djreef]

Cables/wires is a whole myth/snake oil area in itself right up there with extended warranties and protection/replacement plans.

I dunno, I cashed in big time with my Square Trade warranty a few months ago. They put the $350 for my repair back thru my Paypal account the next day. That thing paid for itself 6 times.


I'm thinking that if you buy anything (used esp) on ebay, or any of the closeout sites, then an extended warranty is probably a good thing.

DJ

 

[mtrycrafts]

I thought there was resistance, inductance, capacitance? Examples of making a cable sound different: MIT with their LCR network boxes. Although I hate to call those cables.

All I am saying is if those values are different enough they could affect the sound. Now whether you can hear it or not is another matter.

Now do I believe the Signal vs Kimber vs BJC vs Audio Quest will sound different with their copper IC's and terminations. No. No I don't. Especially over 3 foot runs.

The resistance difference between silver and copper is 5%. That is less than going to the next ga from say 14ga to 13ga which is a 20% change. Capacitance is not a real issue with speaker cables as far as frequency attenuation. Some amps are poorly designed as to dealing with higher capacitance in speaker cables and can self destruct, like the Naim.

You need a whole bunch of inductance to cause audible differences.

As to that MIT and its network, it would be best to check their patents what that network is designed to do. It isn't to alter the 20Hz-20kHz band. But then, they could have lied on their patent application.

 

[basspig]

I'll share my 'cable' story, since the topic came up:

Many moons ago, I worked in a place that had a stereo system in the cafeteria. There was about 250' run of wire from the amp, located in a storage room, and the speakers, bolted to the walls out in the cafeteria.

The 'cable' was phone wire. #24awg solid copper phone wire.

Years later, during renovation, someone decided to replace the phone wire with #16awg zip cord.

The very next time I heard the system play, there was a dramatic increase in treble. It was as if the tweeters weren't connected all those years and then suddenly were operating.

What happened here was the run was so long, that the skin effect was significant down into the upper reaches of the audio range, thus the high frequency energy traveling down the wires was being lost to radiation and skin effect.


That said, in typical home installations, the runs are less than 30' and the wire gauges are usually no less than #15awg, so these issues aren't going to be prominent.

What really matters most is current delivering ability, because the ability to buck back EMF is what provides some of the braking action on the LF drivers. Here, unsized wire will often result in boomy or tubby bass. Increasing the wire gauge may prove disappointing to some, who incorrectly assume they will get more bass; they will get less, actually, because the ringing or overhang is reduced and since the human hearing mechanism weighs duration when estimating loudness, the bass percussion will sound less loud with the bigger cables.

So in that respect, I suppose you could say cables do affect the sound.

 

[highfigh]

I'll share my 'cable' story, since the topic came up:

Many moons ago, I worked in a place that had a stereo system in the cafeteria. There was about 250' run of wire from the amp, located in a storage room, and the speakers, bolted to the walls out in the cafeteria.

The 'cable' was phone wire. #24awg solid copper phone wire.

Years later, during renovation, someone decided to replace the phone wire with #16awg zip cord.

The very next time I heard the system play, there was a dramatic increase in treble. It was as if the tweeters weren't connected all those years and then suddenly were operating.

What happened here was the run was so long, that the skin effect was significant down into the upper reaches of the audio range, thus the high frequency energy traveling down the wires was being lost to radiation and skin effect.


That said, in typical home installations, the runs are less than 30' and the wire gauges are usually no less than #15awg, so these issues aren't going to be prominent.

What really matters most is current delivering ability, because the ability to buck back EMF is what provides some of the braking action on the LF drivers. Here, unsized wire will often result in boomy or tubby bass. Increasing the wire gauge may prove disappointing to some, who incorrectly assume they will get more bass; they will get less, actually, because the ringing or overhang is reduced and since the human hearing mechanism weighs duration when estimating loudness, the bass percussion will sound less loud with the bigger cables.

So in that respect, I suppose you could say cables do affect the sound.

Are you sure the system where you worked wasn't 70V? 250' of speaker wire from a regular amp is guaranteed to sound like crap and it's not from skin effect, it's from the resistance in the wire. Also, if the Bell wire was twisted, it had a bit of induction, which is also a guarantee for losing highs. Too bad the people who installed the zip cord didn't do the job according to code.

 

[basspig]

It was a regular consumer receiver, about 50wpc (this was back about 35 years ago) and definately no 70v line transformer. Not a Bogen or Stromberg-Carlson. Might have been a Realistic brand stereo receiver. The phone cord wasn't twisted. It was the solid copper wire in the pink jacketing.
The whole installation was what my friend refers to as "JS". Stupid is as stupid does, you know!

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'll share my 'cable' story, since the topic came up:

Many moons ago, I worked in a place that had a stereo system in the cafeteria. There was about 250' run of wire from the amp, located in a storage room, and the speakers, bolted to the walls out in the cafeteria.

The 'cable' was phone wire. #24awg solid copper phone wire.

Years later, during renovation, someone decided to replace the phone wire with #16awg zip cord.

The very next time I heard the system play, there was a dramatic increase in treble. It was as if the tweeters weren't connected all those years and then suddenly were operating.

What happened here was the run was so long, that the skin effect was significant down into the upper reaches of the audio range, thus the high frequency energy traveling down the wires was being lost to radiation and skin effect.


That said, in typical home installations, the runs are less than 30' and the wire gauges are usually no less than #15awg, so these issues aren't going to be prominent.

What really matters most is current delivering ability, because the ability to buck back EMF is what provides some of the braking action on the LF drivers. Here, unsized wire will often result in boomy or tubby bass. Increasing the wire gauge may prove disappointing to some, who incorrectly assume they will get more bass; they will get less, actually, because the ringing or overhang is reduced and since the human hearing mechanism weighs duration when estimating loudness, the bass percussion will sound less loud with the bigger cables.

So in that respect, I suppose you could say cables do affect the sound.

If that was a straight speaker cable, not a 70V line, no wonder. Greenhill back a few years ago wrote about cable audibility conducted DBT, compared 24ga, 16ga and 12 ga Monster. Certainly not 250ft lengths

Interestingly, a number of listeners heard differences between 24ga and 16ga even with music and I think all the subject heard it with pink noise, a more sensitive signal. But, differences went away between 16ga and the 12 ga.

 

[Seth=L]

The best way to get snake oil salesmen to see things your way is to threaten to shoot them, if that doesn't work, then shoot them. Shooting them solves the problem, but it's the most extreme treatment approach available. Aggressive treatments always come at a high cost.

 

[djreef]

The best way to get snake oil salesmen to see things your way is to threaten to shoot them, if that doesn't work, then shoot them. Shooting them solves the problem, but it's the most extreme treatment approach available. Aggressive treatments always come at a high cost.

Please, let's not give Alex any ideas.

DJ

 

[basspig]

If that was a straight speaker cable, not a 70V line, no wonder. Greenhill back a few years ago wrote about cable audibility conducted DBT, compared 24ga, 16ga and 12 ga Monster. Certainly not 250ft lengths

Interestingly, a number of listeners heard differences between 24ga and 16ga even with music and I think all the subject heard it with pink noise, a more sensitive signal. But, differences went away between 16ga and the 12 ga.

I'm not surprised that people heard a difference between #24 and #16 wire. In my own installation, I heard a difference between #14 and #8 wire that replaced it. I lost some bass with the wire upgrade, but then I realize that what I lost was the undamped decay of percussive transients. (The same psychoacoustic principal that causes people to believe that the sound pressure if louder when the amp is buried into severe clipping, as opposed to just on the threshold of clipping. Peak loudness isn't any higher, but the duration of the peaks is lengthened by the duration of the clipping and the ear-brain mechanism perceives this longer duration as louder transients).
This is the driving force behind the loudness wars in the CD mastering industry--clipped audio sounds louder. Ringing audio sounds louder. Fancy processors that do both affects now fetch kilodollars where once upon a time, the clean amplifiers fetched the killodollars.

 

[djreef]

I'm not surprised that people heard a difference between #24 and #16 wire. In my own installation, I heard a difference between #14 and #8 wire that replaced it. I lost some bass with the wire upgrade, but then I realize that what I lost was the undamped decay of percussive transients. (The same psychoacoustic principal that causes people to believe that the sound pressure if louder when the amp is buried into severe clipping, as opposed to just on the threshold of clipping. Peak loudness isn't any higher, but the duration of the peaks is lengthened by the duration of the clipping and the ear-brain mechanism perceives this longer duration as louder transients).
This is the driving force behind the loudness wars in the CD mastering industry--clipped audio sounds louder. Ringing audio sounds louder. Fancy processors that do both affects now fetch kilodollars where once upon a time, the clean amplifiers fetched the killodollars.

Yea, like he said. Gawd, I hate slow music, esp where low frequency is concerned.

Give me articulation or give me death.

DJ

 

[njedpx3]

wire sizing

I'm not surprised that people heard a difference between #24 and #16 wire. In my own installation, I heard a difference between #14 and #8 wire that replaced it. I lost some bass with the wire upgrade, but then I realize that what I lost was the undamped decay of percussive transients. (The same psychoacoustic principal that causes people to believe that the sound pressure if louder when the amp is buried into severe clipping, as opposed to just on the threshold of clipping. Peak loudness isn't any higher, but the duration of the peaks is lengthened by the duration of the clipping and the ear-brain mechanism perceives this longer duration as louder transients).
This is the driving force behind the loudness wars in the CD mastering industry--clipped audio sounds louder. Ringing audio sounds louder. Fancy processors that do both affects now fetch kilodollars where once upon a time, the clean amplifiers fetched the killodollars.

So you had 200 foot runs ?

8 GAUGE = 0.6282 OHMS / 1000 ft.
14 GAUGE =2.525 OHMS / 1000 ft.


ressistance total resistance %wire 4ohm %wire 8 Ohm
length per/ft
16 gauge 10 0.004016 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
16 gauge 25 0.004016 0.1004 2.45% 1.24%
16 gauge 50 0.004016 0.2008 4.78% 2.45%
16 gauge 100 0.004016 0.4016 9.12% 4.78%

24 gauge 10 0.02567 0.2567 6.03% 3.11%
24 gauge 25 0.02567 0.64175 13.83% 7.43%
24 gauge 50 0.02567 1.2835 24.29% 13.83%
24 gauge 100 0.02567 2.567 39.09% 24.29%
8 gauge 10 0.0006282 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
8 gauge 25 0.0006282 0.015705 0.39% 0.20%
8 gauge 50 0.0006282 0.03141 0.78% 0.39%
8 gauge 100 0.0006282 0.06282 1.55% 0.78%

14 gauge 10 0.002525 0.02525 0.63% 0.31%
14 gauge 25 0.002525 0.063125 1.55% 0.78%
14 gauge 50 0.002525 0.12625 3.06% 1.55%
14 gauge 100 0.002525 0.2525 5.94% 3.06%


ressistance total resistance %wire 4ohm %wire 8 Ohm
length per/ft
16 gauge 10 0.004016 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
16 gauge 25 0.004016 0.1004 2.45% 1.24%
16 gauge 50 0.004016 0.2008 4.78% 2.45%
16 gauge 100 0.004016 0.4016 9.12% 4.78%

24 gauge 10 0.02567 0.2567 6.03% 3.11%
24 gauge 25 0.02567 0.64175 13.83% 7.43%
24 gauge 50 0.02567 1.2835 24.29% 13.83%
24 gauge 100 0.02567 2.567 39.09% 24.29%

At 100 ft the 14 gauge wire accounts for 5.94% of the total resistance for 4 ohm speakers which is barely audiobly discernable. it will have no preceivable affect on bass, mid, or treble sound. Of course there is always the self-fulfilling prophesy and the Pavlov dog effects.

24 gauge is to small for anything over 5 feet. 16 gauge is actually good up to 25 feet ( remember that the total wire loop is double the distance from AVR to speaker)

Peace

Forest Man ...also the Wire Man


wire gauge is way, way overated!

 

[lsiberian]

So you had 200 foot runs ?

8 GAUGE = 0.6282 OHMS / 1000 ft.
14 GAUGE =2.525 OHMS / 1000 ft.


ressistance total resistance %wire 4ohm %wire 8 Ohm
length per/ft
16 gauge 10 0.004016 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
16 gauge 25 0.004016 0.1004 2.45% 1.24%
16 gauge 50 0.004016 0.2008 4.78% 2.45%
16 gauge 100 0.004016 0.4016 9.12% 4.78%

24 gauge 10 0.02567 0.2567 6.03% 3.11%
24 gauge 25 0.02567 0.64175 13.83% 7.43%
24 gauge 50 0.02567 1.2835 24.29% 13.83%
24 gauge 100 0.02567 2.567 39.09% 24.29%
8 gauge 10 0.0006282 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
8 gauge 25 0.0006282 0.015705 0.39% 0.20%
8 gauge 50 0.0006282 0.03141 0.78% 0.39%
8 gauge 100 0.0006282 0.06282 1.55% 0.78%

14 gauge 10 0.002525 0.02525 0.63% 0.31%
14 gauge 25 0.002525 0.063125 1.55% 0.78%
14 gauge 50 0.002525 0.12625 3.06% 1.55%
14 gauge 100 0.002525 0.2525 5.94% 3.06%


ressistance total resistance %wire 4ohm %wire 8 Ohm
length per/ft
16 gauge 10 0.004016 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
16 gauge 25 0.004016 0.1004 2.45% 1.24%
16 gauge 50 0.004016 0.2008 4.78% 2.45%
16 gauge 100 0.004016 0.4016 9.12% 4.78%

24 gauge 10 0.02567 0.2567 6.03% 3.11%
24 gauge 25 0.02567 0.64175 13.83% 7.43%
24 gauge 50 0.02567 1.2835 24.29% 13.83%
24 gauge 100 0.02567 2.567 39.09% 24.29%

At 100 ft the 14 gauge wire accounts for 5.94% of the total resistance for 4 ohm speakers which is barely audiobly discernable. it will have no preceivable affect on bass, mid, or treble sound. Of course there is always the self-fulfilling prophesy and the Pavlov dog effects.

24 gauge is to small for anything over 5 feet. 16 gauge is actually good up to 25 feet ( remember that the total wire loop is double the distance from AVR to speaker)

Peace

Forest Man ...also the Wire Man


wire gauge is way, way overated!

Well at 250 feet you have other concerns. The load starts becoming reactive. Read roger russell for more information.

 

[njedpx3]

A 2.5million cu.ft. room is a concert hall

Well at 250 feet you have other concerns. The load starts becoming reactive. Read roger russell for more information.

You also are too far away to hear the speakers, in most cases

Can you image a room 500 x 500 x 10 = 2,500,000 cubic feet.

About 20 or 30 SVS Ultra subs needed .. or a dozen Gothams.

====

Wait we are talking a concert hall which have speakers well beyond my $$$ and imagination; doesn not really fit any HT systems I am familiar with.

===

Yes, Roger Russell of McIntosh is a renown authority, here is his discussion

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#longerwires

However, the inductance is still very low (except at high frequencies) and thec capacitance while increasing still has minimal affect on the audibility (except at very low frequencies).

Ohms is a combination of resistance, inductance and capacitance. Inductance and capacitance vary with frequency.

Capacitive reactance, Xc
Xc = 1 / 2Pi f C where: Xc = reactance in ohms ()
f = frequency in hertz (Hz)
C = capacitance in farads (F)



Inductive reactance, XL
XL = 2pi fL where: XL = reactance in ohms ()
f = frequency in hertz (Hz)
L = inductance in henrys (H)









Peace,

Forest Man

 

[highfigh]

You also are too far away to hear the speakers, in most cases

Can you image a room 500 x 500 x 10 = 2,500,000 cubic feet.

About 20 or 30 SVS Ultra subs needed .. or a dozen Gothams.

====

Wait we are talking a concert hall which have speakers well beyond my $$$ and imagination; doesn not really fit any HT systems I am familiar with.

There is no way anyone would design a 500' x 500' concert hall with a 10' ceiling height, or with a square footprint. They also wouldn't use consumer speakers, amps, processors, cabling, interconnects, or any other consumer parts, accessories or equipment in a venue like that.