New center speaker and ear pain

[kab]

I am new to this forum and I hope this does not sound too crazy but I have a yamaha 765 with B&W 580 mains and polks for surround. I Have had these speakers along with a polk center for 15 years and have never had a problem. The yamaha is new and just added a Paradigm CC170 v.3 center channel speaker. The system sounds incredible but 5 minutes of music or movie and I get some irritation (pain) in my ears that is not very pleasing, even at moderate to low levels. I can change to the mains only and crank as loud as I please without this problem. Should I just get rid of the Paradigm or any help would be appreciated.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am new to this forum and I hope this does not sound too crazy but I have a yamaha 765 with B&W 580 mains and polks for surround. I Have had these speakers along with a polk center for 15 years and have never had a problem. The yamaha is new and just added a Paradigm CC170 v.3 center channel speaker. The system sounds incredible but 5 minutes of music or movie and I get some irritation (pain) in my ears that is not very pleasing, even at moderate to low levels. I can change to the mains only and crank as loud as I please without this problem. Should I just get rid of the Paradigm or any help would be appreciated.

This obviously has to be a problem with the last thing you did which was add the Paradigm center.

Make sure you did not inadvertently put Eq or HF lift on the center.

I have only heard one pair of Paradigm speakers. I recently auditioned the Studio 100s.

I thought they were dreadful, with a very harsh mid and HF range. Those speakers would have driven me up a wall and they did quickly. If your center is voiced anything like those then I feel your pain.

If there is no inadvertent Eq, then get rid of the Paradigms and get a B & W center.

 

[FirstReflection]

Well, I cannot say for certain, but listener fatigue is the result of distortion. A lot of people think it is just loudness or uneven frequency response, but the thing that actually hurts our ears is distortion. Without distortion, we can crank the volume to shockingly high SPL levels without really noticing - the sound just seems to come closer and closer as opposed to sounding "louder". We tend to call things "loud" when they are laden with noise and distortion.

Yamaha's receivers are a hot mess right now, IMO. They have sacrificed tremendously on their power supplies and amp quality in their lower and mid-priced receivers in an effort to keep pace in features. To put it bluntly, your Yamaha receiver is to blame, would be my guess.

Paradigm's speakers are not at all known for being fatiguing. But they ARE known for being accurate and transparent. The Paradigm center is likely just "telling it like it is". And the way it is, is full of distortion from your Yamaha receiver.

Polk is notoriously uneven in their frequency response. It is highly likely that your old Polk center was simply not reproducing much in the way of high frequency detail.

This is the trouble with good speakers - they reveal the flaws that are upstream!

That said, there is every possibility that your particular Paradigm speaker is simply damaged in some way and spitting out distortion as a result. But my first guess is that it is simply revealing the distortion that is coming from Yamaha's poor quality amplification.

Try an Onkyo or a Denon receiver instead. If you still have this problem, then obviously there is no point in keeping a speaker that you cannot listen to without discomfort!

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, I cannot say for certain, but listener fatigue is the result of distortion. A lot of people think it is just loudness or uneven frequency response, but the thing that actually hurts our ears is distortion. Without distortion, we can crank the volume to shockingly high SPL levels without really noticing - the sound just seems to come closer and closer as opposed to sounding "louder". We tend to call things "loud" when they are laden with noise and distortion.

Yamaha's receivers are a hot mess right now, IMO. They have sacrificed tremendously on their power supplies and amp quality in their lower and mid-priced receivers in an effort to keep pace in features. To put it bluntly, your Yamaha receiver is to blame, would be my guess.

Paradigm's speakers are not at all known for being fatiguing. But they ARE known for being accurate and transparent. The Paradigm center is likely just "telling it like it is". And the way it is, is full of distortion from your Yamaha receiver.

Polk is notoriously uneven in their frequency response. It is highly likely that your old Polk center was simply not reproducing much in the way of high frequency detail.

This is the trouble with good speakers - they reveal the flaws that are upstream!

That said, there is every possibility that your particular Paradigm speaker is simply damaged in some way and spitting out distortion as a result. But my first guess is that it is simply revealing the distortion that is coming from Yamaha's poor quality amplification.

Try an Onkyo or a Denon receiver instead. If you still have this problem, then obviously there is no point in keeping a speaker that you cannot listen to without discomfort!

I really doubt this. His B & W mains sound fine. He is used to speakers with a British balance and voicing, and yes, that is correct. The paradigms I heard, had anything but. They might be revealing, but they were a harsh strident mess, and my gues is that is what the OP does not like.

I was A/B the Studio 100s with B & W 803s with Rotel electronics. The speakers were poles apart, and the Pardigms were the wrong ones. He is used to B & W and can see very easily why he may be having this reaction.

 

[highfigh]

For any system to sound good to the listener, it has to fit the listener's ears, warts and all. If someone is particularly sensitive to certain frequencies and a speaker has a strong peak in that area, it's not going to sound good and can be painful. Ear fatigue takes many forms including pain, a stuffed-up feeling and a feeling of being uncomfortable. Phase cancellations can cause this, too. Try reversing the wires on the center channel and it may help. If not, it will probably need to be replaced.

 

[lsiberian]

Take that center back and get a B&W.

The receiver runs your other speakers just fine and even at moderate volume it's hurting him. Moderate volumes wouldn't push the amp into clipping unless his moderate is pretty loud.

 

[Alex2507]

Without distortion, we can crank the volume to shockingly high SPL levels without really noticing ....

We tend to call things "loud" when they are laden with noise and distortion.

Hey, I just discovered this and mentioned it in a post not too long ago.
I figured out that it was loud because I had to SCREAM to be heard over it.
Are you stealing my work?

Yes, that's all I had to say. Carry on.

 

[FirstReflection]

Hey, I just discovered this and mentioned it in a post not too long ago.
I figured out that it was loud because I had to SCREAM to be heard over it.
Are you stealing my work?

Yes, that's all I had to say. Carry on.

Nope...not stealing your work...you and I just agree on the facts

I'm a bit surprised that TLS Guy hates the Paradigm Studio speakers so much. His description does not jibe at all with my own experience, but to each his own, I suppose. I've found the Paradigm Monitor line to be quite forward - perhaps even strident, yes. But never the Studio line, so I'm not exactly sure what was happening during TLS Guy's audition in that case.

Then again, I favor the sound of many studio monitors, which most people would definitely find fatiguing. A ton of people prefer a "warmer" sound with a slightly rolled-off high end or maybe a little bit of mid-bass "bloom".

That said, it really does all come back to distortion. I'm still going to stick to my theory that the Yamaha receiver is - at least partially - to blame. I'm a bit shocked that TLS Guy and Isberian are willing to let a distortion-laden amplifier slide. The Paradigm might just be the wrong choice for this particular listener, but the Yamaha's poor-quality amp is hurting the performance of his B&W speakers as well. The B&W might not be hurting his ears when driven by the Yamaha, but with an actual good amplifier, they could potentially sound a whole lot better.

 

[chris357]

Nope...not stealing your work...you and I just agree on the facts

I'm a bit surprised that TLS Guy hates the Paradigm Studio speakers so much. His description does not jibe at all with my own experience, but to each his own, I suppose. I've found the Paradigm Monitor line to be quite forward - perhaps even strident, yes. But never the Studio line, so I'm not exactly sure what was happening during TLS Guy's audition in that case.

Then again, I favor the sound of many studio monitors, which most people would definitely find fatiguing. A ton of people prefer a "warmer" sound with a slightly rolled-off high end or maybe a little bit of mid-bass "bloom".

That said, it really does all come back to distortion. I'm still going to stick to my theory that the Yamaha receiver is - at least partially - to blame. I'm a bit shocked that TLS Guy and Isberian are willing to let a distortion-laden amplifier slide. The Paradigm might just be the wrong choice for this particular listener, but the Yamaha's poor-quality amp is hurting the performance of his B&W speakers as well. The B&W might not be hurting his ears when driven by the Yamaha, but with an actual good amplifier, they could potentially sound a whole lot better.

he experienced this because he was A/B ing them against B&W 803's

those are the most beautiful speaker I have ever heard

 

[chris357]

actually i heard the 804's the 803's were not connected so i can only imagine the 803's

 

[tcarcio]

If you can get a frq response for that room and can look at what is actually happening you might just need some eq or acoustic treatment to solve the problem.

 

[TLS Guy]

Nope...not stealing your work...you and I just agree on the facts

I'm a bit surprised that TLS Guy hates the Paradigm Studio speakers so much. His description does not jibe at all with my own experience, but to each his own, I suppose. I've found the Paradigm Monitor line to be quite forward - perhaps even strident, yes. But never the Studio line, so I'm not exactly sure what was happening during TLS Guy's audition in that case.

Then again, I favor the sound of many studio monitors, which most people would definitely find fatiguing. A ton of people prefer a "warmer" sound with a slightly rolled-off high end or maybe a little bit of mid-bass "bloom".

That said, it really does all come back to distortion. I'm still going to stick to my theory that the Yamaha receiver is - at least partially - to blame. I'm a bit shocked that TLS Guy and Isberian are willing to let a distortion-laden amplifier slide. The Paradigm might just be the wrong choice for this particular listener, but the Yamaha's poor-quality amp is hurting the performance of his B&W speakers as well. The B&W might not be hurting his ears when driven by the Yamaha, but with an actual good amplifier, they could potentially sound a whole lot better.

Please define distortion laden. For most speakers distortion has to exceed 2% THD to be audible. I doubt his Yamaha has that much unless he is driving it well into clipping.

Speakers, especially good monitors should never be forward or have any stridency about them.

Good speakers throw up a sound field behind the plane of the speakers, and do not dump everything in your lap.

When listening to large forces via good speakers, there should be a huge arc thrown up behind the speakers, just like the concert hall. I do not like bloom on the bass, that is why I design and build TLs which are critically damped.

For the record, the bass of the Paradigms was muddy and with about zero definition. I could not tell the note of the tymp struck.

I will try and listen to some other models in their range when I get a chance. However for a company to voice any speakers like the ones are heard, is a big black mark in my book. If that was one of my designs it would be revised or scrapped in short order.

 

[lsiberian]

Nope...not stealing your work...you and I just agree on the facts

I'm a bit surprised that TLS Guy hates the Paradigm Studio speakers so much.

I'm not surprised. He doesn't like Peavey, but I find them enjoyable for pro-audio. However he wasn't raised listening to them either. I was.

 

[kab]

Thanks for all the help, I removed the center speaker and connected to my old sony 7 ES and it really did not have the same problem. I realize the the conditions are way different and it is hard to determine with only one speaker on a main channel. I think I might try a different receiver, which mid range receiver would you all suggest. My sony's processor is way outdated. Thanks again for all the help.

 

[krzywica]

Thanks for all the help, I removed the center speaker and connected to my old sony 7 ES and it really did not have the same problem. I realize the the conditions are way different and it is hard to determine with only one speaker on a main channel. I think I might try a different receiver, which mid range receiver would you all suggest. My sony's processor is way outdated. Thanks again for all the help.

Have you tried the system without a center channel? Those B&W's have excellent imaging. I would suggest that you set the receiver to no center channel and try it out to see if you like it. I ran 2.0 on my main system for a year and I loved it!

There are many on this site that actually recommend that you not have a center channel......kinda surprised nobody brought this option up yet.

 

[kab]

Yes is does sound nice with only the mains but I do enjoy some effects from the rears. Is it possible to run the processor without the center installed?

 

[krzywica]

Yes is does sound nice with only the mains but I do enjoy some effects from the rears. Is it possible to run the processor without the center installed?

Yes thats what I was suggesting. Just running 4.0 (or 4.1 not sure if you have a sub or not). If it sounds good to you I would suggest you just leave it.

 

[cubsputwil]

Yes is does sound nice with only the mains but I do enjoy some effects from the rears. Is it possible to run the processor without the center installed?

Good work !
Very cool, looking great so far. Keep going, I wanna see it finished!

 

[KEW]

Thanks for all the help, I removed the center speaker and connected to my old sony 7 ES and it really did not have the same problem. I realize the the conditions are way different and it is hard to determine with only one speaker on a main channel. I think I might try a different receiver, which mid range receiver would you all suggest. My sony's processor is way outdated. Thanks again for all the help.

I'm sorry, but I'm not clear on what you did.
Are you saying you disconnected the center speaker and connected it to another amp and it sounds okay?
Thanks!

 

[njedpx3]

match timbre of the 580 fronts

The B & W DM580 floor speakers, also had three bookshelf speakers on stands 550, 560, 570 in the same speaker family.

In order to match timbre of the 580s and maintain a seamless front sound plain is best to have matching speakers. Another 580 for the center would provide a perfect match . The 570 would also provide a very close match, but the 550 or 560 are in the same speaker family and would be close. Even though the DM5xx family has been discontinued, there appears to be plenty of used speakers available.

Mixing different speakers brands, even good ones, can not provide the timbre you are expecting as TLS has pointed out.

Good Luck!

Forest Man