Qtc value for sealed enclosures.

I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
I have a couple questions about Qtc....
1: What does a high Qtc in a sealed enclosure mean?
2: What would the difference in sound be in a sealed enclosure with a Qtc of .707 and .900
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The higher the Qtc, the less tight the bass. I can't imagine a sealed enclosure of 8 cu.ft. being satisfactory. I would think the driver would self destruct. That is a much larger volume than the manufacturer recommends. I have not modeled the driver formally, but by quick dead reckoning you seem to be well wide of the mark.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The higher the Qtc, the larger the resonant peak will be and the less the air in the box, as an envelope, will control the motion of the cone. The cone's mass is subject to the force from the voice coil and magnet making it accelerate and decelerate but it also can't stop or start truly instantaneously because of the mass (inertia/momentum). Heavy things accelerate more slowly than light ones, so the voice coil and magnet assembly are designed accordingly. Air compresses, but the cone's movement has less of an effect on a large volume than on a small one (it's not compressing as much, in terms of percentage), so the air in a large box won't do as much to keep the cone from continuing to move. Everything resonates well at certain frequencies and really well at one particular frequency. For a speaker, this is the Fs. Think of bad damping as a drum with only one head. Tap it, and it keeps vibrating until it naturally diminishes but if you put a head at the other end of the cylinder, it doesn't "ring" as long.

Some music works better with a high Qtc, like Rap and Hip-Hop. Car stereos that were designed for this are sometimes called "one note wonder", because it only does one frequency really well. For the most even response and smaller peaks, more damping is better. A Qtc of .707 is good for a wide range of music and vented systems used for Rap are often in the 1.0- 1.2 range. That would sound terrible for almost all other music. Transmission line and sealed box systems are generally much more neutral sounding.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Don't worry about flames, magnet size or magnet weight. Worry about current specs and the Q of the system in a given enclosure. WinISD shows the Q when a driver is modelled and if you look around at most car woofers, most are now made for smaller enclosures, not 8 cubic feet.

Anything with flames is made for a car, not an enclosure that won't allow the frame to be seen.

There's nothing in those specs that shows 8 cu ft to be a good box size and it even has this posted on all of the spec pages "The larger a sealed box is, the lower the sub will play, but the less power it will handle. The smaller a sealed box is, the higher the frequency the sub will play, and the more power it will handle.". The largest box shown for the Flame Excursion is 3.7 cu ft- where did you see 8 as a good size? They already did the calculations and testing. Why re-invent the wheel?
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Sealed enclosure, regardless if large or small, are best served by drivers with extremely long linear strokes (not many drivers fit this bill) if you want low distortion, high amplitude output under 35-40Hz.

-Chris
 
I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
Ok... if you say so. :cool: Although the Xmax doesn't matter as much when you take the efficiency of the driver into account...
 
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I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
How would a sealed sub sound in a box that has a Qtc of 1.01? :eek:
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
How would a sealed sub sound in a box that has a Qtc of 1.01? :eek:
It won't go as low as you might want and it will have a peak, but it won't necessarily be bad if you want it to be punchy. A sealed box that's very small will give you this kind of Qtc.

Same driver? What size?

I modeled the AW121T and it has a 1.09dB rise and F3 of about 42Hz. Down a bit over 16dB at 20Hz.

The thing about car audio drivers is that they're made to have a peak in the range where it counts and to work in a small, enclosed space. Bass moves/resonates the air, it makes objects and materials vibrate and that vibration makes the air vibrate. Those are the three ways you can produce low frequencies. If you want it as pure as possible, eliminate the materials' and objects' vibrations.

I don't know of you already have this driver and want to use it at home, but that's not what it was made for and it won't be the best choice- speakers work best if they're used for their intended application.
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Ok... if you say so. :cool: Although the Xmax doesn't matter as much when you take the efficiency of the driver into account...
Sealed is ALL about displacement. In fact, if you want to get serious about this issue, refer to the actual sensitivity of high efficiency drivers at under 60Hz using a powerful simulator such as WinISD Pro. Even a 98 db / 1 M / 1W 15" pro driver has far far lower efficiency as you go under 60Hz.

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
How would a sealed sub sound in a box that has a Qtc of 1.01? :eek:
Not at all good if you use it straight. If you have a powerful tonal shaping device such as a DCX2496, then you can get a smooth, highly damped response via electronic signal correction.

-Chris
 
I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
First off it has a low efficency bandwidth... 34 which is much lower than the AW121T I might add... Which to my knowledge makes it good in a sealed enclosure.
Run the numbers yourself:
Fs 33.5hz
Qts .876
Qes .973
Qms 8.852
Vas 75L or 2.64 cu. ft.
Re 3.31 ohms
Le 12.54 mh
Xmax +/- 11mm
RMS 650 watts
Efficiency 94db

I believe those parameters are all that is needed for winisd.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
First off it has a low efficency bandwidth... 34 which is much lower than the AW121T I might add... Which to my knowledge makes it good in a sealed enclosure.
Run the numbers yourself:
Fs 33.5hz
Qts .876
Qes .973
Qms 8.852
Vas 75L or 2.64 cu. ft.
Re 3.31 ohms
Le 12.54 mh
Xmax +/- 11mm
RMS 650 watts
Efficiency 94db

I believe those parameters are all that is needed for winisd.
It is a lousy driver. A classic car thumper.

Name: AW150T
Type: Standard one-way driver
Company: Audiobahn
Comment: Excursion series
No. of Drivers = 1
Fs = 30.6 Hz
Qms = 5.92
Vas = 95 liters
Cms = 0.119 mm/N
Mms = 219 g
Rms = 7.388 kg/s
Xmax = 10 mm
Xmech = 15 mm
P-Dia = 309 mm
Sd = 750 sq.cm
P-Vd = 0.75 liters
Qes = 0.59
Re = 3.2 ohms
Le = 2.1 mH
Z = 4 ohms
BL = 15.11 Tm
Pe = 600 watts
Qts = 0.54
no = 0.445 %
1-W SPL = 88.63 dB
2.83-V SPL = 93.9 dB
-----------------------------------------
Box Properties
Name:
Type: Closed Box
Shape: Prism, square
Vb = 1.804 cu.ft
Qtc = 0.707
QL = 18.26
F3 = 49.47 Hz
Fill = heavy

It has a high F3 and can not be equalized as it is very power limited in the bass.

At 30 Hz it can only handle about 30 watts!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
First off it has a low efficency bandwidth... 34 which is much lower than the AW121T I might add... Which to my knowledge makes it good in a sealed enclosure.
Run the numbers yourself:
Fs 33.5hz
Qts .876
Qes .973
Qms 8.852
Vas 75L or 2.64 cu. ft.
Re 3.31 ohms
Le 12.54 mh
Xmax +/- 11mm
RMS 650 watts
Efficiency 94db

I believe those parameters are all that is needed for winisd.
I still don't see where you indicated which driver it is. From your comment about lower efficiency bandwidth being lower than the AW121T, I have to assume you wanted to know about the 15", but...

It's not terrible in a sealed enclosure but there are others that do better.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Bandwidth efficiency is just a number denoting natural response tendencies. It really does not tell you anything about a driver's suitability in reality. Fact is, a sealed enclosure needs VERY long stroke with high linearity to have high performance in sub-bass frequencies. Almost every serious sealed application will also be using electronic signal correction, therefor, natural response of the driver is irrelevant. The W7 based JL audio systems for example, would have very little extension under 45Hz without electronic signal correction.

-Chris
 
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I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
Interesting... so even the W7 has trouble with low frequencies in a sealed enclosure. I have a kappa perfect... guess I just want to try something new!:cool:
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Interesting... so even the W7 has trouble with low frequencies in a sealed enclosure. I have a kappa perfect... guess I just want to try something new!:cool:
Correct every driver rolls off in a sealed enclosure. This is why we build ported subs usually.
 

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