Trade 2 Fathom 112 for Velo DD18 ??

[Franin]

Im curious I was told by a friend today its worth me selling my 2 fathoms 112 for one velodyne DD 18. Apparently these Subs go deep down and work really well as they have an onboard EQ. Im happy to try new things but im not sure if selling 2 Fathoms 112 will justify any difference. Is it worth doing will I be wasting my money. The room is 5m lenght by 4m wide.

 

[mike c]

i wish i was over there, i'd trade my DD18 for your 112's

 

[djreef]

Yea, that sounds like your friend knows this really hot chick who owns a DD-18 that wants to trade for a pair of 112's. He's thinking that she's a slam dunk in the sack if he pulls this deal off.

DJ

 

[Harrison476]

I would take those 112's in a heart beat !

 

[Franin]

Thanks for the reply, I was doing some research and your right I will definitley hang onto those subs. I think sometimes great try something new but sometimes it can lead to being not so great at all.

Thanks again

 

[WmAx]

A single F112 EASILY outperforms, or at very minimum, matchts a single DD18. Two F112s? Hahahahaha.... your friend is either trying to pull a fast one on you... or he is simply ignorant.

-Chris

 

[gene]

A single F112 EASILY outperforms, or at very minimum, matchts a single DD18. Two F112s? Hahahahaha.... your friend is either trying to pull a fast one on you... or he is simply ignorant.

I seriously doubt that. The DD15 and DD18 are still great subs despite their age. I have a pair of DD15s which absolutely crush my JL F110s in terms of bandwidth, SPL, etc. This is no knock on JL but a fact of the laws of physics.

The user interface on the DD series subs is excellent, allowing you to digitally adjust phase, slope, EQ, etc. I haven't found another sub to date with so much adjustability which comes in quite handy when integrating multiple dissimilar subs in a theater room.

The real question is, should you trade 2 small subs for 1 larger sub. For that answer you need to read this:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/two-subs

Now if the question was:
2 DD18s or 2 F112s, I'd personally chose the 2 DD18s if you have the space to accommodate them.

 

[jamie2112]

Your friend is not really a friend with advice like that.NO WAY NO HOW is that a good deal and like Chris said the JL's will smoke that fool..............

 

[Franin]

A single F112 EASILY outperforms, or at very minimum, matchts a single DD18. Two F112s? Hahahahaha.... your friend is either trying to pull a fast one on you... or he is simply ignorant.

-Chris

He owns an audio store and he told me that the DD18 does better in the low freq that both jl audios f112 can only dream of. I told him the truth that some low scenes like the certain one at the end of Transformers when the robot jumps over that screaming women thr bass goes low and you can feel it all over. He insists that the DD18 goes lower with more power and knocks me off the seat.

 

[Franin]

I seriously doubt that. The DD15 and DD18 are still great subs despite their age. I have a pair of DD15s which absolutely crush my JL F110s in terms of bandwidth, SPL, etc. This is no knock on JL but a fact of the laws of physics.

The user interface on the DD series subs is excellent, allowing you to digitally adjust phase, slope, EQ, etc. I haven't found another sub to date with so much adjustability which comes in quite handy when integrating multiple dissimilar subs in a theater room.

The real question is, should you trade 2 small subs for 1 larger sub. For that answer you need to read this:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/two-subs

Now if the question was:
2 DD18s or 2 F112s, I'd personally chose the 2 DD18s if you have the space to accommodate them.

What's your thought regarding really low freq scenes, personally I think the F112s does a great job but he is insisting that a single DD18 does a better job. I asked him if he has one in store so I can audition but he doesn't and he will need to order it in. But he won't if I'm not committed and that's why I ask you guys as it's good to get different opinions or the same.

 

[gene]

What's your thought regarding really low freq scenes, personally I think the F112s does a great job but he is insisting that a single DD18 does a better job. I asked him if he has one in store so I can audition but he doesn't and he will need to order it in. But he won't if I'm not committed and that's why I ask you guys as it's good to get different opinions or the same.

Who cares what he says. If you're happy why change it? You certainly spent more on 2 f112s than what a single DD18 is worth. A single DD18 probably does have more bandwidth than 2 F112s but you won't get the benefits of modal averaging that only multiples subs can give you if you switch back to a single sub. I would never run any of my theater systems with just one sub, but I am kinda nutty like that

 

[Franin]

Who cares what he says. If you're happy why change it? You certainly spent more on 2 f112s than what a single DD18 is worth. A single DD18 probably does have more bandwidth than 2 F112s but you won't get the benefits of modal averaging that only multiples subs can give you if you switch back to a single sub. I would never run any of my theater systems with just one sub, but I am kinda nutty like that

Your right gene But as usual its best to ask on these forums because its great to get the second opinion.

As follows I will hang onto the two subs, but I am disappointed in this so called friend as I have spent good money in the past with him. I guess when things are quite and tight people will tell you anything to get you spending money.

I like to thank you all for replying, thats the beauty of the forums!!

 

[WmAx]

I seriously doubt that. The DD15 and DD18 are still great subs despite their age. I have a pair of DD15s which absolutely crush my JL F110s in terms of bandwidth, SPL, etc. This is no knock on JL but a fact of the laws of physics.

The user interface on the DD series subs is excellent, allowing you to digitally adjust phase, slope, EQ, etc. I haven't found another sub to date with so much adjustability which comes in quite handy when integrating multiple dissimilar subs in a theater room.

The real question is, should you trade 2 small subs for 1 larger sub. For that answer you need to read this:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/two-subs

Now if the question was:
2 DD18s or 2 F112s, I'd personally chose the 2 DD18s if you have the space to accommodate them.

The DD subs are thoroughly measured/analyzed at a credible forum. The Kappa Perfect 12" in sealed box has about identical performance to the DD15 in terms of distortion vs. SPL vs. Frequency; the DD15 having so little advantage that it would be irrelevant in practical use. The 18 has just a little more performance than the 15, and a JL w7 12" can easily outperform the Kappa Perfect 12" driver. The drivers used in the DD series simply do not appear to have a very long linear stroke.

Below, note the amplitude vs. frequency plots and THD vs. frequency vs. SPL plots for relevant data.

For deduction using known measurements, here is the DD-18's measured performance:
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15243

Here is a Fathom F113(I can not find the absolute accurate measured method used at the sites I am linking for teh F112; but the F113 only has 1 inch larger diameter and very light excursion increase = just a little more performance than the F112):
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113.html

BTW, here is the DD15's measured response:
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12090

Here is the Infinity Kappa Perfect 12" in a sealed cabinet, using an UNDERPOWERED amplifier:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/978-diy-infinity-kappa-perfect-12-a.html

Despite the massive looking construction of the DD series drivers -- it appears most of this is just cosmetics -- because they don't appear to actually offer any substantial measured performance for their size/price.

Place a Kappa Perfect 12" in the proper designed/built DIY ported cabinet with correct power level and it will perform overall higher than any of the above subwoofers, especially at low frequencies, where it will easily output 3-4x more SPL under 30-35Hz as compared to highest performer above.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Franin: how are you using the subs now, so far as crossing over to the mains? If you don't already, the best way to do this is to use an external powerful xover and feed the main pre-amp signal out to the xover and feeding the outputs from the xover to the mains and subs. This will result in absolute perfect/seamless transition to the mains for music. Also, the proper DSP Xover also has very powerful frequency shaping filters that allow you to control the overall SQ of your sub to a great degree -- much more capable than the weak bass correction EQ built into the Fathom. The powerful DSP xover can also be used to correct/improve the sound of the main speakers, as well as minimizing distortion by applying a proper high pass crossover to the mains to allow the subs to do all of the low end work. The Behringer DCX2496 is a superb unit that is suitable for ANY quality of sound system.

-Chris

 

[Franin]

Franin: how are you using the subs now, so far as crossing over to the mains? If you don't already, the best way to do this is to use an external powerful xover and feed the main pre-amp signal out to the xover and feeding the outputs from the xover to the mains and subs. This will result in absolute perfect/seamless transition to the mains for music. Also, the proper DSP Xover also has very powerful frequency shaping filters that allow you to control the overall SQ of your sub to a great degree -- much more capable than the weak bass correction EQ built into the Fathom. The powerful DSP xover can also be used to correct/improve the sound of the main speakers, as well as minimizing distortion by applying a proper high pass crossover to the mains to allow the subs to do all of the low end work. The Behringer DCX2496 is a superb unit that is suitable for ANY quality of sound system.

-Chris

Hi chris,
I mainly use the subs for HT rarely listen to music in the theatre. I use the audyssey that's in my Avp. What I did I ran the eq first in the subs( that comes with the fathoms) the applied audyssey.

 

[Warpdrv]

Hey Franin, Why don't you consider a DIY job... I love my F112, and will be keeping it, but you could get deeper output then the F112's.

TC-Sounds is returning with the 18" LMS-5400....
You could easily do a nice sealed box 24" cube and amp which will blow away the DD-18, if your doing just one, you could pick up a SMS-1.....

My boxes cost me a little over $100. to make with birch ply.....

They are on pre-order right now... $1599.00 regular, 10% discount for pre-order.... I have 1 on pre-order to go with the 2 older models on the way.

A good pro amp with about 4000w should be more then you need, but they will handle more power then that.

If DIY is not your thing, I would look at the Seaton Submersive.

 

[gene]

Not sure what distances those measurements were done but our measurements of the DD18 were conducted anechoic at the Axiom facility using their 25ft pole to develop a correction curve below 40Hz. Our measurements are actually 1dB too conservative as a result but it was windy that day so we took the subs inside.

I see a bit more output in our measurements assuming the 2meter groundplane they used vs the 1 meter anechoic we used:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/velodyne-dd-18/velodyne-dd-18-measurements-and-analysis

In my discussions with Brett Hanes, the illuded to more of a difference between the F113 and F112 than you did.

Here are our measurements of the F112 which looks very competent for sure but not quite a DD18:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/jl-audio-fathom-f112-subwoofer-review/fathom-f112-measurements.html

looking at their measurements, the Velodyne looks a bit more linear, though less output than the F113 but the Velo also appears to have lower distortion too. Without having both subs together measured identically there is no way to determine.

Right now my mind is clay b/c of a cold and allergy flare up so I’m going back to bed but I hope you find our data useful.

I will say this, its difficult to make an 18” driver shake a house in a small box and its even more difficult to make a 13 or 12” driver do the same. Both subs represent compromises based on physical size. Yet both are very competent performers.

 

[Warpdrv]

The DD18 is a very good performer, I wouldn't say that a 12" high excursion driver will outperform it though... The F112 is a great sub, but the laws of physics certainly come into play in comparision...

The DD18 will have much better output down low depending on the room size, and on top of that it offers a built in EQ. I think the F113 is closer in terms of comparison to it though.... but the DD series is def. becoming aged IMO.....

Personally I wouldn't swap 2 F112's for a single DD18, but thats me....
PM RMK for his thoughts on the shootout he did with his Dual DD18's and the Dual F113's in his home.... he still states that they are about equal in performance.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/member.php?u=29294

You could easily sell them off and get a couple of submersives and have 2 fantastic subs, or go the DIY route for that matter...

 

[gene]

The DD18 will have much better output down low depending on the room size, and on top of that it offers a built in EQ. I think the F113 is closer in terms of comparison to it though.... but the DD series is def. becoming aged IMO.....

Personally I wouldn't swap 2 F112's for a single DD18, but thats me....
PM RMK for his thoughts on the shootout he did with his Dual DD18's and the Dual F113's in his home.... he still states that they are about equal in performance.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/member.php?u=29294

You could easily sell them off and get a couple of submersives and have 2 fantastic subs, or go the DIY route for that matter...

I agree on all of your points which is why I wrote that 2 small subs vs 1 larger sub article. Yes Velodyne certainly needs to redesign the DD series especially when a sub like an F212 is haunting them Dealer cost on the DD series is very cheap however so if you can pick one up at 50% off retail or more, its still a good deal if you're looking for a competent compact sub that also doesn't draw attention to itself aesthetically.

I was thinking about trading out my DD15s for 2 Axiom EP800s but they won't look as nice in my theater room and I already have a 12Hz - 3dB point at my listening positions at over 100dB SPL. I don't need any more output running those DD15s with my RBH T30s the measurements I took had to be limited to 95dB b/c the wife was going nuts, but check them out with and without Audyssey for my front and back primary seats.

 

[Warpdrv]

I'll be totally honest, the first time I have ever heard a DD, even though it was a 12" in a sealed environment - it really really caught my attention, I literally to this day completely remember the moment that home theater was fired up and heard the sub... it was nearfield and totally blew me away. In fact that was the very first time I was introduced to quality bass in a home theater environment - and it has poisoned me ever since !!! That was the point that started me on my journey of having my own over the top HT environment of my own...

Velodyne DD subs are quite capable subs, but time has passed and new products are out on the market....

I'd be very interested in how well the new Paradigm Sub 1 and Sub 2 perform.... they look very impressive, albeit very expensive...