WmAx's Speakers

[Alex2507]

Here's a thread that I never thought I would get to write. Next I'll be rubbing elbows with Tom Andry.

So, I'll tell this sort of chronologically. I saw Matt's speakers first tucked away in the back of a shed behind the partially assembled cabinets that are being built for another lucky and understandably impatient member. I got to haul Matt's speakers out of the shed and place them on a work table we assembled out in the light of day. First impression was that the added side braces on the lower portion of the cabinet looked like they belonged there and the veneer work was top notch ... and I mean really top notch. Second impression was that they were heavy ... and I mean really heavy. Third impression was that a knuckle rap test made me think of knocking on a safe door. For acceptable and understandable reasons the speakers needed to have the drivers and binding posts installed along with a couple of odds and ends. Once the prep work was done the speakers got hauled into the house for completion of assembly and crossover programming. That's pretty much where this story of those speakers ends.

... to be continued ...

I noticed a few things about how Chris works. There's a practiced ease to the way he uses his hands with tools. He ain't scared. Another thing that is worthy of note is a comment he made over lunch. He said that if forced to choose a commercial speaker he would get a used B&W 803D I believe. That's not the important part. When he mentioned that the price is ~$7,000 I rolled my eyes and he looked at me with raised brows saying, "It's what I love!" ... not that there was ever any doubt.

Here's the part that I'm least qualified to speak on. I got me a little tinnitus and a pretty serious dip at 5k Hz coupled with a limited audio background/vocabulary. Still, I got to hear this stuff and you didn't so . The first thing I got to hear his nearfield computer rig, that reworked Primus 160 and 10" Kappa Perfect stereo combo. He only had to tell me 3 times where the sweet spot was. He probably wanted to choke me. Now these easily held their own with the commercial speakers I have listened to which is very limited. The thing to keep in mind here is that these speakers are close so the room isn't helping. I suspect that if I got the Def Tech's, Paradigm's and B&W I had listened to in recent memory and had them within 3' of my noggin the comparison would result in Chris' efforts being considerably more pleasing. I think we all know that he's a little fanatical about non-resonant cabinets. There are two de-coupling devices in place to separate the sub and speaker from each other and from the floor/building structure to eliminate them from resonating.

I'll get to the meat of the matter about his omni polar rig in another post.

 

[Rickster71]

I can't wait for the pictures.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

It's 802d's that Chris likes....

 

[Highbar]

You had me all excited for pics. Now hearing about all his systems, we need even more pics Sounds like you had a good time though

 

[WmAx]

Sorry, Alex did not bring a camera(at least not that I noticed)..... so don't get all hyped up expecting photos.....and yes... used 802N or D, not 803..... is what I would go for if FORCED to go commercial(and that would be a substantial downgrade in sound quality compared to what I use in my main system at the moment).

-Chris

 

[Alex2507]

I'm still coming to grips with what his omni polar rig sounded like. The sweet spot can't be obscured with a computer chair that rolls. I sat in the chair, the music came on, I closed my eyes and the lights went off. I immediately realized that when I EQ'ed and calibrated my system at home, I did well with what I had. The vocals do come from left of center on that recording. I previously thought I had made a mistake. The demo song that I use is Money for Nothing. Now the clarity in Sting's vocals at the beginning of the song are stunning. My first thought was 'why is he there?' (left of center) because I had erroneously adjusted for that on my system with the gains. My next thought was 'where is the electronic effect?' My system has a little sibilance on some vocals which I thought were intentional on this song. I'll adjust my living room system in regards to that later. Chris mentioned the tweeter height on the Primus 360/362 being too low. I thought the height might be about right until I got home and listened to mine last night with the demo song. It definitely sounds like they are playing in an orchestra pit. Somehow his omni-polar rig puts the vocalist in that part of that song ~15' back and up on a stage. So when the drums and that crazy guitar riff (if that's what you call it) come along it's all just what you would expect at this point ... amazing. What's unexpected in that song is that it's not just Mark Knoffler singing. I could easily hear the contribution of the back up vocalists ... a distinct contribution as opposed to two sounds combined to make one.

It was at this point that I started thinking that I was going to pitch my speakers off the balcony but now I'm thinking a fairly rigorous spanking using my EQ's built in RTA more than the RS SPL meter should eliminate the sibilance and raising my speakers a few inches with the help of my as of yet unused Gramma's will make things better. That's what we're doing here, right? ... taking this to the next level.

Another thing that I can comment on is effect that minor notes made by odd instruments have on the whole impact of a song in Chris' omni-polar speakers. The sounds are unexpected, distinct in placement and very much in the present. They don't get lost in everything else being played and I got the impression that these notes were played by a person who was standing there waiting for just the right moment to make that one sound ... and they did it well. Those impressions come from track 6, Ride Across the River.

On track 7, The Man's too Strong my much anticipated acoustic guitar strum seemed to have the harshness removed. Chris's room is treated to an incredible level. He's not in this game for half measures and I get the feeling that if he thought more treatments would be of benefit, there would be more treatments.

Due to my time spent at Chris's my living room system will be improved by the addition of a currently unused amp for the mains, better use of my EQ and my subs and speakers all going up on currently unused Grammas. Paradigm Dawg asked me with disgust if my Grammas were still leaning on the wall. I don't think he knew it but he had a look on his face like he was asking me if I had gotten around to cleaning my monkey yet, fully expecting the answer to be ... no.

Edit: No pic's from me. I was busy that day and I'll let Chris post his own pic's of his system. I've seen them before but I had to search far and wide for them. You guys want to be spoon fed. Maybe he'll post them in this thread. I gotta go wash my monkey in preparation for a wedding.

I made it home on time !!!

 

[ParadigmDawg]

So did you pick up your new speakers or not?

 

[jostenmeat]

Congrats on the speakers, Alex. And I'm glad you made it home ok. I would love to hear a top notch omnipolar rig someday. Someone I know heard some MBLs and his description was extreeemely flattering.

Hopefully it's cool to post Matt34's old thread, that shows the speakers at a very early stage, and the modification plans:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53450

Alex, when you get the speakers installed, I'd like for you to put on that choral disc that you bought on my rec, once again. I'm curious for your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[mike c]

no pics? prepare to be banned!

 

[Alex2507]

So did you pick up your new speakers or not?

Yeah, I picked them up and carried them out of the shed. Then after we or he did some stuff to them I picked them up and carried them into his house. Then I picked them up and carried them upstairs. It was like I couldn't stop picking them up.

Chris was pretty adamant that I wouldn't be able to program the Behringers as crossovers properly. I believed him. The way that Matt's classified post read I thought that I might be picking up a couple of cabinets, a box of drivers and a couple of Behringer toys that I have no clue how to use. However Chris seems to want to hand them over with that done. I think he's building the bases for them too but he did say we needed to discuss something as I was leaving. I forgot what it was that we were talking about when he said that.

Hey Chris, what were we talking about when you said that?

When I go back to pick up the speakers I will try to get to listen to more music and maybe I'll be smarter about how I listen for comparative purposes. I think that in order to give my speakers every advantage I need reconfigure my EQ and recalibrate to allow for the sound panels that my former best friend gave me (he's still a good guy but I have a new best friend now). In the words of my former best friend, "Does that make me shallow?"

Speaking of best friends I need to say something about walter duque who gave me a turntable among some other things. I drove into upstate NY to pick it up after leaving Chris'. That stuff I have here and will write a thread with pic's and it's own story. I'm excited about that too. It will require a little time to set up and appreciate but the write up is coming.

I remembered something else about Chris' omni-polar rig. When my system is playing, it sounds one way in the sweet spot but if I sit on the floor in front of the sweet spot there is a different type of sound signature as we would all expect. I think I read about that phenomenon in maybe the Stereophile review on the Primus 360 speakers. It's a totally unfair comparison because one of my speakers costs less that one of Chris' drivers in one of his speakers and he's put over 1,000 hours doing research and developing them and he has conducted his own blind testing to see what crossover curve he would use on them (I think). The point is that when you get out of the sweet spot at Chris' and walk around the room, the tone of the speakers seems to remain constant. That's probably due to the omni polar tweeters and the room treatments.

I don't think I'm giving secrets away here as much as I'm saving him from being forced to brag. Now when I get Matt's speakers here, I'm gonna start bragging right away ... no hesitating. On the way back from the wedding this evening my g/f was good enough to tell me that she was gonna need a ring (and a nice ring at that) before I got amps to power these babies up with. I'm gonna miss her ... I mean I need to get her a ring before I get amps.

Somehow I feel like I'm paying for adk's sins. Karma has taken a wrong turn.

Edit: The DJ's sound system was a Bose at the wedding. It sucked at low volume but when he turned it up it was like a distorted suck. My friend who I sold my old Primus 250's to started teasing me because he knows I don't like the company. I asked him what he liked better: $2,000 Blows or $200 Infinity. He listened for 10 seconds and chose well. Not: I exaggerated the cost ... but I didn't tell a bunch of lies and call it marketing in the commission of robbery.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

hum.............

Yeah, I picked them up and carried them out of the shed. Then after we or he did some stuff to them I picked them up and carried them into his house. Then I picked them up and carried them upstairs. It was like I couldn't stop picking them up.

Chris was pretty adamant that I wouldn't be able to program the Behringers as crossovers properly. I believed him. The way that Matt's classified post read I thought that I might be picking up a couple of cabinets, a box of drivers and a couple of Behringer toys that I have no clue how to use. However Chris seems to want to hand them over with that done. I think he's building the bases for them too but he did say we needed to discuss something as I was leaving. I forgot what it was that we were talking about when he said that.

Hey Chris, what were we talking about when you said that?

When I go back to pick up the speakers I will try to get to listen to more music and maybe I'll be smarter about how I listen for comparative purposes. I think that in order to give my speakers every advantage I need reconfigure my EQ and recalibrate to allow for the sound panels that my former best friend gave me (he's still a good guy but I have a new best friend now). In the words of my former best friend, "Does that make me shallow?"

Speaking of best friends I need to say something about walter duque who gave me a turntable among some other things. I drove into upstate NY to pick it up after leaving Chris'. That stuff I have here and will write a thread with pic's and it's own story. I'm excited about that too. It will require a little time to set up and appreciate but the write up is coming.

I remembered something else about Chris' omni-polar rig. When my system is playing, it sounds one way in the sweet spot but if I sit on the floor in front of the sweet spot there is a different type of sound signature as we would all expect. I think I read about that phenomenon in maybe the Stereophile review on the Primus 360 speakers. It's a totally unfair comparison because one of my speakers costs less that one of Chris' drivers in one of his speakers and he's put over 1,000 hours doing research and developing them and he has conducted his own blind testing to see what crossover curve he would use on them (I think). The point is that when you get out of the sweet spot at Chris' and walk around the room, the tone of the speakers seems to remain constant. That's probably due to the omni polar tweeters and the room treatments.

I don't think I'm giving secrets away here as much as I'm saving him from being forced to brag. Now when I get Matt's speakers here, I'm gonna start bragging right away ... no hesitating. On the way back from the wedding this evening my g/f was good enough to tell me that she was gonna need a ring (and a nice ring at that) before I got amps to power these babies up with. I'm gonna miss her ... I mean I need to get her a ring before I get amps.

Somehow I feel like I'm paying for adk's sins. Karma has taken a wrong turn.

Edit: The DJ's sound system was a Bose at the wedding. It sucked at low volume but when he turned it up it was like a distorted suck. My friend who I sold my old Primus 250's to started teasing me because he knows I don't like the company. I asked him what he liked better: $2,000 Blows or $200 Infinity. He listened for 10 seconds and chose well. Not: I exaggerated the cost ... but I didn't tell a bunch of lies and call it marketing in the commission of robbery.

 

[WmAx]

The plan was for Alex to take home completed speakers with programmed crossovers. The result is that I was unable to get the last part done(program crossovers) before he left. He could have taken them, and tried to do the crossover program himself..... but he decided to leave them for me to do that.

-Chris

 

[Alex2507]

Chris,

Any chance of you posting a few pic's of the speakers mentioned in this thread? There seems to be like a public out cry for pic's and Mike has become threatening. I think a good shot would be from your doorway toward the front left corner of the room showing the oddly placed panel in the middle of the room, the speaker and the pillar like bass trap in the corner.

When I get Matt's speakers up here it will be like show and tell but for now the ball is in Chris' court.

I'm gonna go rotate my tires for the ride back.

 

[WmAx]

I will try to get some images up later this week.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Here is a shot of the computer rig:

Here is a shot of the main rig:

Both systems have extensive room treatments.

The computer rig was designed to let me have maximum near-field resolution for editing music recordings of classical music that I plan to start doing at a local college(I am developing an advanced recording system/jig that goes far beyond normal/typical recording engineer techniques). It represents the absolute best possible monopolar near-field monitoring possible. Extreme dynamic range. Absolute linearity/flat response. Extreme low resonance (of all types and sources). The computer system is fed by two dedicated 20 amp circuits, and has over 1000 watts RMS per STEREO channel. It is a fully active system powered by quality professional audio amplifiers.

The main system was designed to simply produce a real sounding playback through audio trickery. It has sufficient dynamic range, though not to the level possible with the near field system. It is a fully active xover system powered with multiple high quality professional audio amplifiers.

Both systems have met their goals so far as I can determine.

I will be replacing the main rig with a newly designed one in the near future. The main upgrades for the new system: (1) It is dual polar possible - it will be able to operate as a monopolar or omnipolar system, acoustically, allowing me to change modes for different purposes (monitoring vs. listening). (2)Also, it will have extreme dynamic range capability, employing a 15" TC Sounds AXIS per channel(bass), a JL Audio W7 8" per channel(mid-bass), 2x Infnity MRS drivers per channel(same as in the new Infinity Prelude flagship speakers) and two planar super wide dispersion tweeters per channel. The dual mids and dual tweeters are not on the same baffle; one of each tweeter and mid is on the front and back of the speaker. In the end, 2800-3000 watts RMS per STEREO channel will be available via 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits and multiple high quality pro amps.

Function over form is my motto, as is probably apparent by the very bleak looking main system room. Perhaps one day I'll decorate and color coordinate.

I will try to get some images of Alex's speakers later this week. I'll post them in this thread.

-Chris

 

[JerryLove]

Actually, it's not the look of the speakers themselves: but based on the color choices and general rooms:

It seems people were correct in saying that the blind develop super sensitive hearing

~looks around my own computer rooms and is glad there are no pics of it up, thus preventing posters from calling me the kettle~

 

[Rickster71]

Alex planned to make a pit stop by my place on his way home.
He was running late so he sent me a picture to show he was busy with some friends. He assured me that his flip flops matched his belt; wearing what he called an ensemble.
He doesn't drink, he just held the beer to make a fashion statement.

I asked for pics of the speakers...and this is what I got.

 

[Alex2507]

Perhaps one day I'll decorate and color coordinate.

You should wait to paint until my next visit in case that fan finishes taking my head off.

Those pic's are way better than I could have taken during my visit and show absolutely no signs of the hitchhiker hog tied in the corner. Good job.

Chris has a little photo shop along side of those two rooms so his abilities with a camera also surpass mine ... but I'm taller.

lsiberian, eat your heart out dude. This is in fact audio nirvana and no you can't go.

Edit: Rick, I can only imagine your shame when your wife catches you surfing the gayest sites on the web. I myself have been asked, "Why are you looking at men?" I've also been asked, "Why are you looking at other women?" I'm thinking she should know the answer to at least one of those questions.

I missed my chance to meet you and check out those speakers of yours but it will get done. Those guys in Florida and Oregon think they're cool but we'll show them ... I also wanted to make an effort to at least contact gmichael as he was good enough to extend an invitation for me to visit. I came clean with my girl about the speakers and where I was all day Thursday. Chris asked me if I was gonna lie to her. I told him I didn't lie and I didn't lie but somehow she's still a little pissed. She's not sure why she's pissed but she knows I was being sneaky and that is evidently frowned upon.

 

[sawzalot]

Edit: Rick, I can only imagine your shame when your wife catches you surfing the gayest sites on the web. I myself have been asked, "Why are you looking at men?" I've also been asked, "Why are you looking at other women?" I'm thinking she should know the answer to at least one of those questions.

I missed my chance to meet you and check out those speakers of yours but it will get done. Those guys in Florida and Oregon think they're cool but we'll show them ... I also wanted to make an effort to at least contact gmichael as he was good enough to extend an invitation for me to visit. I came clean with my girl about the speakers and where I was all day Thursday. Chris asked me if I was gonna lie to her. I told him I didn't lie and I didn't lie but somehow she's still a little pissed. She's not sure why she's pissed but she knows I was being sneaky and that is evidently frowned upon.

If you decide to visit Rick on your way to get your new speakers count me in as I would like to meet you guys and I am not so far from Rick,our own GTG to surpass all others , in some form or another, lol.

 

[sawzalot]

Alex planned to make a pit stop by my place on his way home.
He was running late so he sent me a picture to show he was busy with some friends. He assured me that his flip flops matched his belt; wearing what he called an ensemble.
He doesn't drink, he just held the beer to make a fashion statement.

I asked for pics of the speakers...and this is what I got.

My Wife was sitting here with me when I clicked on this she started to laugh out loud then asked who is that ? I said Alex of course and then proceeded to write about us getting together with Rick and she got up , looked at me with some smile/grin/wthello are you doing and then she left the room, L O L .