Getting that tube sound for less.

[mtrycrafts]

... I really wish they were efficient enough to mate with my tube amps, ...?

You mean that 6 watt SET cannot handle it? You just praise the daylights out of it above how it can kill another amp

 

[mtrycrafts]

...Just like saying that Rosie is slimmer than Megan. No issue with you finding Rosie sexier, but I'd have an issue with you saying that Rosie is thinner and fitter than Megan. Please, don't attack me because you think I insinuated that Rosie was fat or not sexy. I realize that woman come in all shapes and sizes, and while I do have my own preferences, I'm not saying in the least that Rosie is not as sexy as Megan, what every person finds sexy is definitely a case of subjective taste, and even fat, some might not even consider Rosie fat, because to them, fat is even fatter than Rosie... So... It's all a matter of opinion and preferences... Peace!

Well, you certainly picked a better analogy than trying to compare cars

 

[mtrycrafts]

....What I was saying was that a solid state amp, when clipped, tends to reproduce that distortion in both even and odd harmonics.

Why would you bring that up? Not very relevant. That is not how one listens to an amp, under clipping conditions all the time, or frequently. If so, time to change amps. Besides, hopefully this happens infrequently if at all and that is not what differentiates a tubed component from an SS.

 

[TLS Guy]

You mean that 6 watt SET cannot handle it? You just praise the daylights out of it above how it can kill another amp

This whole issue is ridiculous. Listening to a single ended triode amp, is not even attempting to get to the closest approach to the original sound. Single ended triodes produce not only an awful square wave, but have trouble producing a decent sine wave. And yes if we are into high fidelity reproduction that does matter. If you want audio La La land then it is of no consequence.

Individuals who denounce science and measurement, are just excusing their severe mental laziness. They are also glorifying there own ignorance.

As a child the first amp I ever built was a single ended triode amp out of the Mullard circuit book. I moved on to a 10 watt per channel push pull Mullard amp. Have I ever considered building another single ended triode amp. Of course not, and nor would any other sane objective person.

Yes, science is important, and the more good science the more our listening experience will be improved. Touting highly outdated circuits with poor performance is no help to anyone, especially the audiophytes, who need to deepen their understanding of principles and concepts. Encouraging off the wall notions from the back of the neck does no service to anyone, and especially not the proponents.

 

[highfigh]

Must be happy coincidence. My room is pretty well damped, and the M&K's are very revealing speakers, used at near-field distances, which helps room colorations from being too obnoxious. I really wish they were efficient enough to mate with my tube amps, as they are the most accurate regarding timbre as any speakers I own.

And if it's a happy coincidence, isn't that what this whole hedonistic pursuit is all about?

Funny, I thought it was all about trying to hear things that may not exist, using equipment that shouldn't sound as good as it does, in places that were never meant to be used for listening to music critically. Hmmm.

 

[highfigh]

Firstly, that harshness is caused by your speakers, room acoustics or the quality of the recordings, not because it is a CD.

Then, if that is all you want to do, why not use the treble tone control if one is installed? That is what it is for.

I don't know if you were doing this when CD players first came out, but the minute the Kyocera and NEC players came out with oversampling, everyone jumped on the bandwagon to proclaim the Sony and all of the players using 44.1KHz sampling rate as 'harsh', due to the "brick wall" filters. That strikes me as odd, since the CDs are recorded with 44.1KHz sampling.

Also, some CDs are definitely not up to the quality level of the best and harshness can easily be one of their characteristics.

 

[highfigh]

Besides, I have yet to see a speaker being 'ruler flat' even in an anechoic chamber.

It's pretty rare but if the analyzer has low enough resolution, it can look pretty good. I did a car system in a '73 Grand Prix with the French whorehouse interior. 4" mids in the dash, tweeters on the doors, 6-1/2" mid-bass at the bottom of the doors, 5" two-ways in the 4"x10" holes in back and four Boston Acoustics Pro 10" woofers, in a single enclosure. I removed all of the electronics and rewired everything, made the subwoofer cabinet and mounted the 6-1/2" mid-bass drivers, mounted all of the electronics and added a couple of amps, then equalized it. The LEDs on the display of the Audio Control RTA made it look like there was almost no deviation from flat, from bottom to top.

 

[highfigh]

Well, you certainly picked a better analogy than trying to compare cars

OK, what if we debated whether a Pontiac Aztec is slimmer than Rosie O'Donnell? I think it is.

 

[highfigh]

This whole issue is ridiculous. Listening to a single ended triode amp, is not even attempting to get to the closest approach to the original sound. Single ended triodes produce not only an awful square wave, but have trouble producing a decent sine wave. And yes if we are into high fidelity reproduction that does matter. If you want audio La La land then it is of no consequence.

Individuals who denounce science and measurement, are just excusing their severe mental laziness. They are also glorifying there own ignorance.

As a child the first amp I ever built was a single ended triode amp out of the Mullard circuit book. I moved on to a 10 watt per channel push pull Mullard amp. Have I ever considered building another single ended triode amp. Of course not, and nor would any other sane objective person.

Yes, science is important, and the more good science the more our listening experience will be improved. Touting highly outdated circuits with poor performance is no help to anyone, especially the audiophytes, who need to deepen their understanding of principles and concepts. Encouraging off the wall notions from the back of the neck does no service to anyone, and especially not the proponents.

But SE amps work great if extremely high fidelity isn't needed, so they do serve a purpose and if care is taken in the design phase, they can sound very nice. These amps have a pretty strong following among those who use them in their audio systems and also for guitar amps. I don't know how long you have been in the US or if other countries had a Hawaiian music/steel guitar fad after the US took over in Hawaii, but some guitar/amplifier companies, such as Valco, Oahu, Rickenbacker and Gibson made or sold small amplifiers to go with their lap steel guitars. I found an Oahu from the late '30s that uses a 6L6G in a SE design and it sounds a lot bigger than it is. It also stays clean unless the input is overdriven. At the time, distortion wasn't an endearing quality, so they were designed to be clean and loud enough to cover a fairly large area.

Are you saying that it's not possible to have better performance than an amplifier circuit in a book? No offense, but that's an awfully closed-minded way of looking at a design that may have been improved in the time since that book was printed. Is it possible that the tubes were faulty? Old Mullards sound great but they haven't always been perfect in terms of microphonics.

Which tubes were in that one? Have you done anything with 6Q7G or 6C8G tubes?

 

[mtrycrafts]

But SE amps work great if extremely high fidelity isn't needed,...?

Does it have any fidelity, let alone close to extremely high fidelity?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't know if you were doing this when CD players first came out, but the minute the Kyocera and NEC players came out with oversampling, everyone jumped on the bandwagon to proclaim the Sony and all of the players using 44.1KHz sampling rate as 'harsh', due to the "brick wall" filters. That strikes me as odd, since the CDs are recorded with 44.1KHz sampling.

Also, some CDs are definitely not up to the quality level of the best and harshness can easily be one of their characteristics.

CDs are harsh or can be when it is a poor recording, period.
Over sampling was used to avoid the characteristics and difficulties with the brick wall filters. After that, that was not an issue. Today, it is part of the design without being advertised unlike the old days, that the player is 2x, 4x, or more over sampling.

 

[mtrycrafts]

OK, what if we debated whether a Pontiac Aztec is slimmer than Rosie O'Donnell? I think it is.

Oh, but now you are out of the audio realm of debates. Many like to compare cars and audio especially when it comes to break in or burn in, etc

 

[sleepysurf]

Thanks for the input sleepysurf! As I am real new at some of this ,how does the Modright intergrate into the avr Dennon system? From Transport or TV sat reciever to Modright then Dennon?

Yes, you can theoretically send the preamp output back into the Denon. I presume it has a Preamp IN option. It would be interesting to run Audyssey both with, and without, the tube pre, and see what differences it measures!

 

[highfigh]

CDs are harsh or can be when it is a poor recording, period.
Over sampling was used to avoid the characteristics and difficulties with the brick wall filters. After that, that was not an issue. Today, it is part of the design without being advertised unlike the old days, that the player is 2x, 4x, or more over sampling.

Harshness isn't only with CDs, vinyl can be badly recorded/mastered, too.

Right- the "brick wall" filters caused massive phase shift and comb filtering.

 

[highfigh]

Oh, but now you are out of the audio realm of debates. Many like to compare cars and audio especially when it comes to break in or burn in, etc

I was referring to the girth of each. A friend worked for GM and saw a memo that came from the top, telling the dealers that if they plan to display the Aztec indoors, back it against the wall.

 

[highfigh]

Does it have any fidelity, let alone close to extremely high fidelity?

Here's a link:
http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:DxIKusz4-gUJ:wireless.ee.washington.edu/indep_study/ben.pdf+Single+ended+tube+amplifier+design&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Once it's open, click on the link at the top to open the pdf so you can see the graphics.

As long as it's set so cutoff doesn't occur too early, they work well. What's worse- running it slightly into cutoff or crossover distortion in a Class AB amp?

 

[highfigh]

Oh, but now you are out of the audio realm of debates. Many like to compare cars and audio especially when it comes to break in or burn in, etc

I don't like to switch to synthetic speaker oil until my speaker cables have been properly biased and only if I can replace the original batteries with Ray-O-Vac (carbon-zinc), half-way discharged.

Eric Johnson fans may know what I'm referring to in the battery reference.

 

[olddog]

Thank you ALL!! This is by far the most outstanding and informative information I have gotten in a long time. Even the esoteric ones.
A thought did cross my mind while reading your post
Our passion for our preferences help us define our charcter, don’t you think?
I can see where I would be headed in the right direction with some room treatments but the HEAD HONCHO takes this idea very dimly and will take some convincing. Start small (bass traps) on the corners maybe?
In trying to understand the quality of what I need something like a ModWright SWL 9.0se or a Peachtree Nova maybe?
Other than that as my 2 channel speakers are dedicated what about a 50w or so stereo tube amp between the Dennon and the speakers or a DAC with tube output between the CD and Dennon then go with analog hook up to the Dennon. Just some thoughts I have had after reading all of your great post.
My room is not large 24x16, listening on the long axis, and I did get rid of a lot of high-end harshness by moving the speakers out about 4’ with a little tow in. Matching down firing subs outboard of both speakers by 2’. Carpeted floors. Textured walls. 8’ texture ceiling.
Thanks again for all this great advice and information to ponder. I have played at guitar for over 45 years and own dig and tube amps-why? My Less Paul just sounds better on a tube amp. Tubes are what I grew up with and I guess I just long for that perceived coloration. Thanks again for all this great advice and information to ponder.
I have played at guitar for over 45 years and own dig. And tube amps-why?
My Less Paul just sounds better on a tube amp where as my Fender Fat Strat sounds better on a Digital amp the difference being I guess is the type of music I generally play on each. Tubes are what I grew up with and I guess I just long for that perceived coloration.
Thanks again this is one of the best forums out there--why--because of you folks
Mike

 

[highfigh]

"I can see where I would be headed in the right direction with some room treatments but the HEAD HONCHO takes this idea very dimly and will take some convincing. Start small (bass traps) on the corners maybe?"

Don't be afraid to look online for treatments. Some have photos printed on them, some are basic tweed and you don't have to limit your fabric selection to only tweed or polyester grill cloth. Go to a fabric store and look in all of the books- I'm sure you can find something that suits both of you.

"Thanks again for all this great advice and information to ponder. I have played at guitar for over 45 years and own dig and tube amps-why? My Less Paul just sounds better on a tube amp. Tubes are what I grew up with and I guess I just long for that perceived coloration. Thanks again for all this great advice and information to ponder.
My Less Paul just sounds better on a tube amp where as my Fender Fat Strat sounds better on a Digital amp the difference being I guess is the type of music I generally play on each. Tubes are what I grew up with and I guess I just long for that perceived coloration.
Thanks again this is one of the best forums out there--why--because of you folks
Mike[/QUOTE]

What digital amp makes a Strat sound better than when it's played through a tube amp? Yechhhh!, IMO. If you like a brighter sound, try a Black Face Fender or one of the variants. What guitar amp(s) do you have?

 

[olddog]

Highfigh
I have already been talking to the HH about treatments, and I guess I will, like the speakers, need to show her how tasteful it can be done.
I have a 1957 Gibson Custom Black Beauty I traded a guy that was starting a C&W band and needed equipment in 1965 for 2 Epiphone’s, a Vox Cambridge tube amp, and a Vox Wa. It’s the fretless version, and I do love it when I play some smooth jazz on an 82 Fender TwinII with 2-12s or for a little more edge a B52 AT112. The fender Fat Strat, (hot rodded with some Tex spec and Pearlygates) I like to play a lot of “modded music” with, ex. Robin Trower Bridge of Sighs, on a Line 6 SpyderIV 75w-used to have the III. I do not have to have a ton of mod-boxes around to get the sounds I want. This is nowadays all at home or at small open stage nights.
What does this have to do with my audio question? Maybe just a matter of personal preference and the color of the music I want to hear. My old ears get tired when the sound is tooo pure I guess.
How about yourself?