Man vs. God

[CraigV]

What the universe was like immediately prior to the big bang, or at the exact instant of the big bang is entirely unknown.

Exactaly my point

 

[CraigV]

I don't know what "relevant" means here, nor am I sure how you mean "result of".

What I mean is everything which is now matter (including you & me) that can be detected by current conventional means.

 

[JerryLove]

I've found nominal-ism is very common in many areas of the world. However it does stand to reason it's easier to be a Christian in America than in other places. However statistics indicate that the church grows much faster in places other than the US.

A higher percentage of unexposed people to convert... also greater desperation, and lower education (exposure to history and other cultures tends people towards agnosticism no matter what religion they started with)

Essentially belief is what saves a person. In my view having the right name isn't as important as having the right being. I think this is a reasonable view. However I will distinguish it from other religious systems.

Short version.

The Jews believed that God could not be in the presence of sin (if you prefer: sin could not be in the presence of God).

They also believed that sin was carried in the blood (from father to child).

This is why the children of Adam and Eve carried the sins of their parents. It is also why Jewish religious rituals involved the slaughter of animals. The priests would cover themselves in the blood of the (sinless) animal and could then enter the "holy of holies" where God lived and be in God's presence: the animals sinless blood masking their own sinful blood.

Joshua (Jesus), not being descended from Adam (though Biblical genealogies conflict with that, some listing Joseph as Joshua's father), was born without inherited sin. He was sacrificed (as had animals before him been) so that his sinless blood would mask the sin of others. This "perfect sacrifice" is said by Christianity to be permanent (animal sacrifices had to be repeated), and offered to all who accept it.

I know some may equate this with the cable controversy, but I think it's a bit of a stretch. The cable controversy can be disproved. Whereas God really can't be disproved. I think it's intentional that he can't be proven either. What choice would we have if he were provable? You can try to deny the Sun but it's still going to be there. God hid himself to give us the choice. That is my view on the matter. Certainly there are people smarter than I on both sides.

So now, instead, we can believe what is evidenced, or we can believe that lifting the cables off the floor will make the speakers sound better.

 

[JerryLove]

What I mean is everything which is now matter (including you & me) that can be detected by current conventional means.

I appreciate the attempt to clarify, but I'm not sure it has helped me:

Are you suggesting all the matter in the universe is not [everything which is now matter (including you & me) that can be detected by current conventional means], nor a result of the BB?

I believe it's likely there's undetected matter. I don't know what "result" is in this context. I could answer either way depending on how I read it.

Are you suggesting all the matter in the universe is not relevant, nor [everything which is now matter (including you & me) that can be detected by current conventional means] of the BB?

I don't think that makes sense there.

 

[MidnightSensi]

A higher percentage of unexposed people to convert... also greater desperation, and lower education (exposure to history and other cultures tends people towards agnosticism no matter what religion they started with)

Short version.

The Jews believed that God could not be in the presence of sin (if you prefer: sin could not be in the presence of God).

They also believed that sin was carried in the blood (from father to child).

This is why the children of Adam and Eve carried the sins of their parents. It is also why Jewish religious rituals involved the slaughter of animals. The priests would cover themselves in the blood of the (sinless) animal and could then enter the "holy of holies" where God lived and be in God's presence: the animals sinless blood masking their own sinful blood.

Joshua (Jesus), not being descended from Adam (though Biblical genealogies conflict with that, some listing Joseph as Joshua's father), was born without inherited sin. He was sacrificed (as had animals before him been) so that his sinless blood would mask the sin of others. This "perfect sacrifice" is said by Christianity to be permanent (animal sacrifices had to be repeated), and offered to all who accept it.

So now, instead, we can believe what is evidenced, or we can believe that lifting the cables off the floor will make the speakers sound better.

Heh. If I see anyone in a robe soaked in blood I'm heading the other direction.

 

[Davemcc]

I believe it's likely there's undetected matter.

The investigation of dark matter continues.

In terms of matter/energy conversion, think in terms of atomic bombs. The energy released from the bomb is the result of the destruction of the atom. The atom is converted from matter to energy. The reverse process of energy to matter is also possible.

Somebody like Jerry or Astrodon are more than welcome to correct my understanding of the process or to expand it in more detail.

 

[JerryLove]

In terms of matter/energy conversion, think in terms of atomic bombs. The energy released from the bomb is the result of the destruction of the atom. The atom is converted from matter to energy. The reverse process of energy to matter is also possible.

In an atomic bomb (or fission bomb) like those used in WWII, conventional explosives are used to compress a mass of fissile material until decaying electrons start to break apart atomic nuclei which in turn break apart others.

An atomic weapon is far from a total-conversion bomb (I believe something like 0.01% efficient, but don't quote me). The fissile material is mosly just converted into other fissile material: but in the proccess some mass is lost (converted to energy).

I think my point is: most of the atom is just converted into two smaller atoms. Only a small percentage is converted to energy.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Exactaly my point

But, not knowing it at this time is not an indication that it cannot be known at some time. After all, what fraction of the known time are we here? And, that only applies to us humans. Are there more advanced beings in the vast universe? Bound to be. No real reason why not. So, perhaps they have a better understanding as they had a much longer time to ponder that aspect of the universe.

 

[newaudiofile]

What is the definition of "benefit" here?

Benefit meaning everything that we seem to have achieved in the end seem to be complete useless.
Technology was to help farming, example fishing. To make our lives easier. But what happened. Our seas are depleted because greedy humans have fished it to the bone.
We all live in fear because we discovered nuclear energy.

Martin Luther and John Calvin asserted that the Bible clearly established that the Sun moved around the Earth. It is only after being convinced that the Earth orbits the sun that people started saying "that's what the Bible supports"

And if that is what Martin and John Calvin asserted where is it stated in the Bible that "Sun moved around the earth". If they were wrong that is not the fault of the Bible but rather their interpretation of it.

Sure. Patterns were hard to miss. They were also given several that were useless to preventing disease.

How do you know they were useless? Were you there to know the conditions that existed then for those prevention measure to be taken?

I don't know what "robot" you are thinking of: but none I can come up with know anything at all.

I used the word "know" because of what they are designed to do. If robots do not do what they are design to do what is their purpose. Hence my question still stands. What is the purpose of the highly intelligent evolving human. Bare in mind, if a simple robot was designed what about the highly intelligent human.

 

[CraigV]

But, not knowing it at this time is not an indication that it cannot be known at some time. After all, what fraction of the known time are we here? And, that only applies to us humans. Are there more advanced beings in the vast universe? Bound to be. No real reason why not. So, perhaps they have a better understanding as they had a much longer time to ponder that aspect of the universe.

Agreed, but even the most advanced intelligence cannot explain how something – anything – just came into being from absolute nothingness. We have some very intelligent minds right here on Earth, and some computers to crunch the numbers, and yet no one can explain how this little particle just appeared (short of divine intervention)

 

[newaudiofile]

Agreed, but even the most advanced intelligence cannot explain how something – anything – just came into being from absolute nothingness. We have some very intelligent minds right here on Earth, and some computers to crunch the numbers, and yet no one can explain how this little particle just appeared (short of divine intervention)

EXactly! Thanks yoooooooooooooou!

 

[Davemcc]

What is the purpose of the highly intelligent evolving human.

You assume that man needs a purpose. That's just placing your own bias, wants, demands, needs, hopes, desires, dreams, etc on existence. There is nothing in the universe that suggests man is here for a purpose (except the Bible). Perhaps its that longing for purpose that drives people to religion as much as a childhood fear of burning in hell.

if a simple robot was designed what about the highly intelligent human.

We know that robots are designed by humans. We have no evidence to suggest that humans were designed by any particular intelligence, supernatural or otherwise.

Personally, I think humans were designed to be Pirates by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Yarr.

 

[highfigh]

You assume that man needs a purpose. That's just placing your own bias, wants, demands, needs, hopes, desires, dreams, etc on existence. There is nothing in the universe that suggests man is here for a purpose (except the Bible). Perhaps its that longing for purpose that drives people to religion as much as a childhood fear of burning in hell.

We know that robots are designed by humans. We have no evidence to suggest that humans were designed by any particular intelligence, supernatural or otherwise.

Personally, I think humans were designed to be Pirates by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Yarr.

I think some people need to have some sense that there's a reason for being. If everyone felt that there was no reason at all, and I mean every person on the planet, while some would be able to control themselves, many would just ask "What's the point?" and do whatever they want, with no consideration for anyone or anything else.

Oh, wait- we already have a lot of people who act that way.

 

[CraigV]

You assume that man needs a purpose. That's just placing your own bias, wants, demands, needs, hopes, desires, dreams, etc on existence. There is nothing in the universe that suggests man is here for a purpose (except the Bible). Perhaps its that longing for purpose that drives people to religion as much as a childhood fear of burning in hell.

I whole heartedly agree. There’s a great scene in Watchmen where Dr. Manhattan & Laurie are on Mars when he says (paraphrasing) “If man were wiped out tomorrow, Mars wouldn’t notice. Most of the universe wouldn’t notice because they’re unaware of human existence” (sorry, I don’t know the exact line)

However, we do exist and the meaning and degree of meaning is up to each individual to decide. However we got here should be considered miraculous, and we should never downplay how incredible our existence is.

 

[newaudiofile]

You assume that man needs a purpose. That's just placing your own bias, wants, demands, needs, hopes, desires, dreams, etc on existence. There is nothing in the universe that suggests man is here for a purpose (except the Bible). Perhaps its that longing for purpose that drives people to religion as much as a childhood fear of burning in hell.



We know that robots are designed by humans. We have no evidence to suggest that humans were designed by any particular intelligence, supernatural or otherwise.

Personally, I think humans were designed to be Pirates by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Yarr.

So the guy who goes to shoot up a school with "Humanity is Overrated" on his T-Shirt is no biggie and we should just accept it.

Isnt your second point contradictory. A simple robot was created but the complex human just appear from a small single cell organism.

 

[Nemo128]

I prefer Man Vs Food on the Travel Channel.

 

[newaudiofile]

I whole heartedly agree. There’s a great scene in Watchmen where Dr. Manhattan & Laurie are on Mars when he says (paraphrasing) “If man were wiped out tomorrow, Mars wouldn’t notice. Most of the universe wouldn’t notice because they’re unaware of human existence” (sorry, I don’t know the exact line)

However, we do exist and the meaning and degree of meaning is up to each individual to decide. However we got here should be considered miraculous, and we should never downplay how incredible our existence is.

Thanks you. Once again.

 

[JerryLove]

But, not knowing it at this time is not an indication that it cannot be known at some time. After all, what fraction of the known time are we here? And, that only applies to us humans. Are there more advanced beings in the vast universe? Bound to be. No real reason why not. So, perhaps they have a better understanding as they had a much longer time to ponder that aspect of the universe.

It appears that the nature of the process of the big bang is that no information transitions the event. Since there is no evidence in existence, no knowledge can be had.

But, of course, it's highly speculative.

 

[JerryLove]

Agreed, but even the most advanced intelligence cannot explain how something – anything – just came into being from absolute nothingness. We have some very intelligent minds right here on Earth, and some computers to crunch the numbers, and yet no one can explain how this little particle just appeared (short of divine intervention)

Your statement is self conflicting.

"appeared from nothing"
"appeared from divine intervention".

But perhaps you can start by showing me an example of "nothing".

 

[JerryLove]

Benefit meaning everything that we seem to have achieved in the end seem to be complete useless.

You seem to be creating a definition of "benefit" or "use" that is self-serving.

Something is only useful in so far as it advances a goal.

Technology was to help farming, example fishing. To make our lives easier. But what happened. Our seas are depleted because greedy humans have fished it to the bone.

But the people who developed it had easier lives as a result: therefore it was useful.

We all live in fear because we discovered nuclear energy.

I don't.

And if that is what Martin and John Calvin asserted where is it stated in the Bible that "Sun moved around the earth". If they were wrong that is not the fault of the Bible but rather their interpretation of it.

The founders of the reformation: two of the most significant Biblical scholars in history, were absolutely convinced it said so.

Further, as far as I can tell, not a single person in all of history believed that the Earth orbited the sun as the result of reading the Bible.

This points strongly that you are interpreting the book to fit what you already believe are the facts rather than reading it on its own merit.

How do you know they were useless? Were you there to know the conditions that existed then for those prevention measure to be taken?

Yes.

I used the word "know" because of what they are designed to do. If robots do not do what they are design to do what is their purpose. Hence my question still stands. What is the purpose of the highly intelligent evolving human. Bare in mind, if a simple robot was designed what about the highly intelligent human.

So let's take "know" out of the equation.

"robots were built with a purpose in mind: what is the purpose for which people came to be?".

The answer is: "None. Self-replicating chemicals don't have purpose in what they do".