Man vs. God

[rnatalli]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574405030643556324.html

A very good read. These two are heavyweights on their respective side of the fence. I'm not trying to start a flame thread so please folks keep it civil.

 

[lsiberian]

Theology and science are far more complex than a simple article, but discussion of these topics is important sometimes. My view is Dawkins gives evolution too much credit for the existence of life. 1. We've yet to have a confirmed transitional life form fossil. 2. Entropy states things tend toward chaos not order. 3. The mathematical likely hood of each leap in the process is to low in my view for it to be merely chance.

I summarize by saying Dawkins' belief in evolution is a religious one not a scientific one. As none of the above questions have been answered well enough to make evolution law.

Too often science is turned into politics and religion it has no place in either realm. Science should be used to grow our understanding of the universe, life, and ourselves. I'm glad many folks here take measurements of their system response. This can contribute more than arguing over ID versus evolution.

 

[redass]

1. We've yet to have a confirmed transitional life form fossil.

buncha jive talk.

and point 2 and 3 are completely worthless... are you going to claim in absolute terms that the entropy of a chimp can be compared to the entropy of a fart in any way or that you can compare the statistical probability of life in absolute terms? come on, those points are so insanely subject to interpretation. do you watch football? did you see the catch the broncos made last week?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus)

evolution is probably the most well documented scientific phenomenon in all of human history. every single experiment and hypothesis ever created in all of biology and any related fields have supported the theory of evolution. not ONE solid example refuting evolution has ever been discovered.

 

[adwilk]

buncha jive talk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus)

evolution is probably the most well understand scientific phenomenon in all of human history. every single experiment and hypothesis ever witnessed in all of biology and any related fields have supported the theory of evolution. not ONE solid example refuting evolution has ever been discovered.

The key word there is supported... Like lsiberian stated, it can't be proved into law.

I believe things evolve and adapt. Its what things evolved from and how that thing began where evolutionist still have a gray area. Its merely speculation.

Great read by the way.

 

[Adam]

I enjoyed the article. I think that Ms. Armstrong's section was written better, whereas Mr. Dawkins seemed to ramble (IMO).

A couple of things come to mind:

• Having not found evidence of something doesn't equate to it not existing. Nor does having found a single skeleton with certain features equate to the existence of an entire species with those characteristics.
• The process of evolution does not by itself negate the concept that life was created by design. Humans are capable of starting processes that, once started, will continue on their own. If something with intelligence were to see the process after it had been started, they might argue that nothing intelligent was involved - that wouldn't make them correct.

 

[oppman99]

The key word there is supported... Like lsiberian stated, it can't be proved into law.

I believe things evolve and adapt. Its what things evolved from and how that thing began where evolutionist still have a gray area. Its merely speculation.

Great read by the way.

I don't want to get too entangled in this debate. It's just too unlikely that a person will ever switch sides (although it does happen in rare cases). In most cases the arguements thrown around are twisted for a specific purpose or selectively quoted without any substantial understanding.

Just want to point out that the goal of science is not to "prove" anything. Evidence is gathered and a conclusion drawn. Scientific laws are not absolute truth. They just have a vast amout of data that support the conclusion. They are models to help us understand our world. Evolution is no exception. When a model arises that is more reliable or applies to a greater range of phenomena, it eventually replaces earlier models. The process of replacing entrenched models can be, and often is, as embattled as the evolution vs. intelligent design arguement.

 

[redass]

The key word there is supported... Like lsiberian stated, it can't be proved into law.

I believe things evolve and adapt. Its what things evolved from and how that thing began where evolutionist still have a gray area. Its merely speculation.

Great read by the way.

uh... not really sure I understand what you mean by "can't be proved into law". science isn't capable of proving anything in absolute terms. evolution is as much "law" as anything else... "scientific theory" is not the same as the crazy guy on the street corner's "theory" that the government invented AIDS and crack.

also, evolution has absolutely nothing to do with how life began. evolution is the thing that happens to life after it already began.

 

[NicolasKL]

1. We've yet to have a confirmed transitional life form fossil.

There are numerous transitional fossils.

2. Entropy states things tend toward chaos not order.

Without an energy input, yes. Luckily we have an abundant supply of energy precisely one AU away. A graded river bed is more ordered than a non-graded river bed, because it has an energy input (the river). Surely you don't think it requires divine intervention for that, do you?

3. The mathematical likely hood of each leap in the process is to low in my view for it to be merely chance.

I assume you're talking about abiogenesis here, and not evolution (which are two very different things, and evolution does not require abiogenesis to have occured to be true). There's little doubt that it's improbable. Even staggeringly improbable. Luckily, the universe is even more staggeringly large, and fairly staggeringly old. I think any accurate estimate of probability is going to be practically impossible, but even given that, the probabilities that you see touted by most creationists (all of them, that I've seen) are fundamentally flawed.

 

[Davemcc]

I don't think there will ever be a definitive answer to the origin of life. Time and nature have conspired to destroy the fossil record (which plays into the creationists hands, vis-a-vis their demand for a complete fossil record). There is simply not enough information left to trace the origins of life entirely accurately. In that case, I chose to pay attention to those things that can be shown (science) and ignore those things that are invented (religion). I'm okay with the idea that some things will never be known and that we have to work with theories rather than definitive proof.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... I'm okay with the idea that some things will never be known and that we have to work with theories rather than definitive proof.

Well, certainly not in our life times

I think there is a difference between theory and proof and one doesn't follow the other. Mathematics uses proof. And we have laws from them.
But, I could and most likely be wrong.
Where is Astrodon when you need him to repeat his posts of the past explaining this

 

[mtrycrafts]

There are numerous transitional fossils.
...

Yes, I think there have been several in the papers this year alone if I recall correctly.

Some just cannot accept it nor will they. Then, they would have to reconsider their position

 

[Seth=L]

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The above is a childish response.

 

[mtrycrafts]

also, evolution has absolutely nothing to do with how life began. evolution is the thing that happens to life after it already began.

Exactly. And, just because we don't have all the answers now, the other side is supported as they have no answers.

 

[Adam]

The above is a childish response.

It would have been cool if there was some sort of 3D image in there. Oh, well.

 

[Davemcc]

Well, certainly not in our life times

I think there is a difference between theory and proof and one doesn't follow the other. Mathematics uses proof. And we have laws from them.
But, I could and most likely be wrong.
Where is Astrodon when you need him to repeat his posts of the past explaining this

I think you're referring to this post. It is a good one.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=452449&postcount=685

 

[lsiberian]

Exactly. And, just because we don't have all the answers now, the other side is supported as they have no answers.

Actually we do, but they are theological not scientific.

 

[lsiberian]

Yes, I think there have been several in the papers this year alone if I recall correctly.

Some just cannot accept it nor will they. Then, they would have to reconsider their position

I'd like to see those papers.

 

[lsiberian]

On a funny note. The existence of God can be proven in one act. Problem is we've yet to find a way to reverse it.

The idea is you have to decide before hand I guess. Ultimately it's a personal choice. Of course the religious side does have to try and win you over. Otherwise they wouldn't really believe would they?

 

[MidnightSensi]

"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows."
Epictetus

 

[Rickster71]

I don't think there will ever be a definitive answer to the origin of life. In that case, I chose to pay attention to those things that can be shown (science) and ignore those things that are invented (religion).

True.
The same reason no definitive answer to the so called 'wars on drugs and poverty' will ever be found.
Too many people on both sides of all these issues making money and gaining power.