how much power do i actually need?

[12.1]

Ok jostenmeat I will promise to listen to at LEAST 12 different speakers before I buy (so I need to ensure the same input system to the speaker or does this not really make a difference?)

Also in regard to your bookshelf/sub combo (another option I was sort of considering) how exactly do you think I should wire the system? Do you mean the 2 subs in stereo with each other or...?

oh and basspig thanks for the power scale update - I see I was a bit wrong in my understanding

 

[basspig]

oh and basspig thanks for the power scale update - I see I was a bit wrong in my understanding

You're welcome.

Oh and BTW, I looked at that JTR link.. 80-20,000Hz? That's definately going to need a few subs to fill in the bottom end.

 

[jostenmeat]

Ok jostenmeat I will promise to listen to at LEAST 12 different speakers before I buy (so I need to ensure the same input system to the speaker or does this not really make a difference?)

Good Man!

Also in regard to your bookshelf/sub combo (another option I was sort of considering) how exactly do you think I should wire the system? Do you mean the 2 subs in stereo with each other or...?

Ideal would be to run them in stereo. Basically, each respective sub shares the duties along with the respective monitor. The speaker on the left plays the left channel, and the nearby sub plays that same channel, just helping out on lower freq's.

The higher you xover the speaker, the very very close location of subs to monitors becomes more imperative. Also, the higher you xover, the more you will likely benefit from stereo subs vs dual mono subs, so to speak.


There are a number of ways to skin this cat.

If you are using a receiver/integrated with bass mgmt (all receivers do, but few integrateds do), then you connect these subs via the sub preout. Two subs can be connected by using a Y splitter, but know that it's a summed mono signal. People have been completely satisfied with this, just so you know.

If there is no bass mgmt available in the electronics, you will need sub(s) that have high level inputs/outputs (speaker level). In this scenario, the speakers still receive the ENTIRE signal, where the sub's bass mgmt just does a low pass, I believe. You will get varying advice on where to choose the xover (some might say right at the speakers' rolloff, others recommend an octave about this point, etc). Personally, I think this is the riskiest route, as far as possibly dealing with phase and amplitude issues.

get an outboard bass mgmt system, like a Behringer DCX. You'll need to use XLR to RCA adapters. You'll need test tones and a laptop to get the most out of it, but if you do know what you are doing, you're pretty much getting the best bang for buck in full range stereo reproduction, less making these speakers yourself.

 

[lsiberian]

Ok jostenmeat I will promise to listen to at LEAST 12 different speakers before I buy (so I need to ensure the same input system to the speaker or does this not really make a difference?)

Also in regard to your bookshelf/sub combo (another option I was sort of considering) how exactly do you think I should wire the system? Do you mean the 2 subs in stereo with each other or...?

oh and basspig thanks for the power scale update - I see I was a bit wrong in my understanding

This is exactly the right step. Listen to speakers before you buy. You'll get what you really want. JM and I have different tastes.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Pretty much, everything said has been right (except for the guy saying "more power always better". That will fry your speakers).

.

I think the guy is a she

 

[JerryLove]

I think the guy is a she

A girl that likes amp power in the post-KW range? Sweet!

 

[cfrizz]

Yes, I'm a She! Thank you Jerry.

I LOVE power since I discovered how good it makes my speakers sound. I will NEVER again have less than 200wpc for my system.

People have suggested getting other speakers if they don't like the sound. I will always first suggest getting more power to make sure you are truly hearing what your speakers are capable of!

And I beg to differ with you, I have seen more people come on another forum after having blown out their tweeters from turning up the volume on a receiver that just didn't have the power to give.

I'm running a 405wpc Sunfire amp to all of my speakers in my signature, and haven't fried a speaker yet. My ears will give out before my amp or speakers do.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, I'm a She! Thank you Jerry.

I LOVE power since I discovered how good it makes my speakers sound. I will NEVER again have less than 200wpc for my system.

People have suggested getting other speakers if they don't like the sound. I will always first suggest getting more power to make sure you are truly hearing what your speakers are capable of!

And I beg to differ with you, I have seen more people come on another forum after having blown out their tweeters from turning up the volume on a receiver that just didn't have the power to give.

I'm running a 405wpc Sunfire amp to all of my speakers in my signature, and haven't fried a speaker yet. My ears will give out before my amp or speakers do.

Does your stereo have a control called 'MORE!'?

 

[chris357]

here is my experience.

i have NHT 2.5i for my fronts and misc other NHT speakers all around..

these are great value speakers.. not the best or most respected but far from considered low end. but generally considered greedy for power.

I first had them with a Denon AVR3200 which was about 80wpc, they sounded so so.

then I added a 3ch 200wpc B&K 4430 which blew me away I mean these things woke up. they are rated at max of 200wpc and 6 ohm.

then I got a B&K 2220 which is 220 wpc and a b&k ref 30 pre amp and dumped the denon and again these things rose to the occasion and suprized me even more..

I've always been drooling over some b&w's 804's or 803's or any new higher end speaker.. but I came across another amp deal for a krell kav 3250 which is 250wpc @ 8ohm 500wpc at 4ohm and 1000 at 2ohm

and again this was the biggest improvement I have ever heard (eccept when I changed power cables.... just kidding lol)

i mean I heard bass that I didnt know existed for example that pause in Aerosmiths livin on the edge with the 4 mega bass drum blasts.. about knocked me off my chair the first time..

now i question how much better the better speakers will make it.. i mean I keep getting more power and they keep sounding better...

I sort of think of it like a house and water.. you open one faucet and you have plenty of water pressure.. even 2 faucets or 3 and things are still fine.. but you open everything up and run the shower and the washing machine now you start to really loose pressure..

it was explained to me once in a simple way.. that power that goes to your speakers is not just 200wpc at 8 ohms all the time.. if its a simple sound track with not much going on it might be pretty low demand.. but detailed music and movie sound tracks will draw more resistance and more power at random times.. so sometimes your 8ohm speakers could be drawing 4 ohms or less..

so having more power than you think you need is sometimes just what you need at a minimum..

again this is just my 2 cents.. coming from a guy who just goes by what sounds good and not why it sounds good.. and willing to blow more than a fair share of money on his stuff.. (no wife to say no)

the best part of this hobby is there is more than one way to skin a cat.. very few options are really awful.. and if you buy something and want better you can add it later as your budget allows

 

[cfrizz]

Simple, easy, understandable & correct explaination Chris! Well done & thank you.

I remember when I thought I would never run out of space or memory with my first PC. I now know, that I should max out the memory & get a very large hard drive to accomodate large greedy programs that require both to operate to their full potential.

That is what this is about. Having what's needed at any given time for the speakers to perform to the best of their ability. NOT what some science test says is only required.

Yes it is expensive to do it this way, but I'm not about to fall back on a scientific explaination to justify the fact that I'm too cheap to spend the money, or to just give me an excuse to upgrade again. This equipment is designed to last for years, I don't buy into the planned obsolesence that these company want us to fall for!

 

[highfigh]

I have always been a fan of having more power than needed for continual use, ever since I could afford it. A car that only has 10% more than it needs for cruising is useless when it has to get out of its own way and an amplifier is very similar- they both need extra power on demand. How much more depends on the amount of power used, on average and the demand placed on it. If someone needs to use an average of 50W and the music has frequent 30dB peaks, a 60W amp won't cut it if any level of fidelity is desired. The peaks will clip even if a 200W amp with no dynamic headroom is used. If 1W is needed on average, that 60W amp doesn't look so bad but it still won't handle the 30dB peaks without clipping. The 200W amp also works better in this system. The average power needed determines how much power the amp needs to develop. If the speakers are only capable of producing 84dB @ 1W/1meter, 120dB had better not be the goal because that's not gonna happen with any kind of consumer grade amp, even if it's measured from that same 1 meter distance. That would require 4000W in a free field or anechoic environment.

With speakers that have sensitivity of 90dB/W/meter, played at an average level of 96dB, 200W should sound great because very little music is recorded with 30dB peaks, these days. Most is mastered for the most commonly used player, which is the iPod or iTunes, and that's not necessarily for playing through a stereo system of any quality. Unfortunately, this leaves those of us who actually want the best sound quality and dynamics drifting at sea, IMO.

 

[JerryLove]

I LOVE power since I discovered how good it makes my speakers sound. I will NEVER again have less than 200wpc for my system.

People have suggested getting other speakers if they don't like the sound. I will always first suggest getting more power to make sure you are truly hearing what your speakers are capable of!

I can't believe you believe that as absolutely as you seem to assert it.

There is always "more power" to be had. At some point you must convert to "well, it's not the power: try the speakers" or you would never change speakers.

Let's not take this difference in cut-off-points and treat it as a difference in basic philosophy. There are points where I say "more power" just as there are points where you say "more speaker".

In this instance, I think 2Kw per-channel is overkill. Based on my math of the 125dB comment made (I forget if that was you) you may not.

And I beg to differ with you, I have seen more people come on another forum after having blown out their tweeters from turning up the volume on a receiver that just didn't have the power to give.

I'm running a 405wpc Sunfire amp to all of my speakers in my signature, and haven't fried a speaker yet. My ears will give out before my amp or speakers do.

Too much power kills speakers.

An underpowered amp, without protection against clipping, will fry a speaker in a sitution where a more powerful amp (or one with clipping protection) may not have.

I absolutely agree with you.

I don't agree that someone with a 200W speaker will see an advantage going from (say) a 400WPC amp to a 2,000WPC amp.

You might not think so either, but you've given me the impression that you do.

 

[chris357]

Cfrizz thats a good point.. buy it right and buy it once

 

[chris357]

Jerry i dont think anyone would 100% disagree with you that the law of diminishing returns will come into play..

I also belive its harder to blow your speakers with to much power than with to little.


But I agree with cfrizz that an awful lot of people probably buy new speakers when adding more power woudl improve what they have.. and vice versa.. at some point you maximize your speakers with more power and the next upgrade has to be speakers.

ive seen it first hand where I thought I needed new speakers and now i'm not as sure. however there is always that if these speakers sound this good with this amp.. how much better woudl those b&w 804s sound... and that is what drives us in this hobby

 

[cfrizz]

Jerry my oldest gear including my main speakers are almost 20 years old!

At some point, I will upgrade my Polk RTA-8T's, reason 1 is because they ARE almost 20 years old. Reason #2 is because I want a pair of Dynaudio's Focus 220's.

I really wanted a pair of Polk LSI 15's. However, I can't handle the weight of them. So I will get the Dyns instead. It was because I wanted to upgrade to the LSI's that I got an amp in the first place. It was a Parasound 1500A 205wpc amp. My Polks CAME ALIVE! Once I discovered the weight of the LSI's & how good my old speakers were sounding, the upgrade went on indefinate hold.

I simply don't care what the science is to operating speakers. I simply care about what sounds good to ME. My ears told me that about 200wpc is enough to power just about any speaker to it's full potential. If people want to purchase more, they are able to do so. I'm not limiting myself to just 200 watts obviously since I have a 405 wpc amp. I just won't go lower than that amount.

Most people who have purchased at least 200wpc amps have been able to HEAR a clear & distinct improvement. I have also seen people purchase less, and couldn't hear a difference. For me the whole point IS to HEAR a difference.

 

[chris357]

Jerry my oldest gear including my main speakers are almost 20 years old!

At some point, I will upgrade my Polk RTA-8T's, reason 1 is because they ARE almost 20 years old. Reason #2 is because I want a pair of Dynaudio's Focus 220's.

I really wanted a pair of Polk LSI 15's. However, I can't handle the weight of them. So I will get the Dyns instead. It was because I wanted to upgrade to the LSI's that I got an amp in the first place. It was a Parasound 1500A 205wpc amp. My Polks CAME ALIVE! Once I discovered the weight of the LSI's & how good my old speakers were sounding, the upgrade went on indefinate hold.

I simply don't care what the science is to operating speakers. I simply care about what sounds good to ME. My ears told me that about 200wpc is enough to power just about any speaker to it's full potential. If people want to purchase more, they are able to do so. I'm not limiting myself to just 200 watts obviously since I have a 405 wpc amp. I just won't go lower than that amount.

Most people who have purchased at least 200wpc amps have been able to HEAR a clear & distinct improvement. I have also seen people purchase less, and couldn't hear a difference. For me the whole point IS to HEAR a difference.

AMEN SISTER

 

[lsiberian]

I can't believe you believe that as absolutely as you seem to assert it.

There is always "more power" to be had. At some point you must convert to "well, it's not the power: try the speakers" or you would never change speakers.

Let's not take this difference in cut-off-points and treat it as a difference in basic philosophy. There are points where I say "more power" just as there are points where you say "more speaker".

In this instance, I think 2Kw per-channel is overkill. Based on my math of the 125dB comment made (I forget if that was you) you may not.

Too much power kills speakers.

An underpowered amp, without protection against clipping, will fry a speaker in a sitution where a more powerful amp (or one with clipping protection) may not have.

I absolutely agree with you.

I don't agree that someone with a 200W speaker will see an advantage going from (say) a 400WPC amp to a 2,000WPC amp.

You might not think so either, but you've given me the impression that you do.

Clipping is far more common than most people realize. However audibility must be tested to make an assertion here. If you can't back up your position with sound science then it's an opinion and not a fact.

Many have stated hearing a difference and I tend to believe that there is one even if it's purely mental. The way we perceive to me is very important and if a person perceives such and such as sounding better to them than go for it. However when someone asks for advice I believe it's best to fall back on science. Realistically most folks would fail an A/B level matched double blind test between their amp and a receiver. This has been shown numerous times. Just like few can tell the difference between high rate mp3 and CDs in a double blind test. A system built on the DBT principles can save folks a lot of money. And in this economy we all could save a buck.

 

[JerryLove]

Clipping is far more common than most people realize. However audibility must be tested to make an assertion here. If you can't back up your position with sound science then it's an opinion and not a fact.

Why I used the word "believe".

In neither case have we put up the science. The closest we have is what I mentioned in one of my first posts: desired peak volume / sensitivity = needed watts. (obviously that's not simple division, but I'm not sure of the sign for an inverse log any more).

Just for safety's sake: I chose an amp with double the speaker's wattage as my example.

That said: I am still being a guy and thinking "girl with kilo-watts"

So I completely agree with you. Do you know of a pertinent study here?

 

[cfrizz]

...And in this economy we all could save a buck.

I save a buck by buying the best I can afford, ONCE & keeping it for YEARS!

 

[JerryLove]

I save a buck by buying the best I can afford, ONCE & keeping it for YEARS!

I do on some things, but others I cannot because technology changes too rapidly.

the best TV or receiver or media unit (BlueRay player) will be obsolete or just not worth the cost in 10 years. Certainly the bleeding edge becomes affordable fast.

These days, I buy most lasting things used already. It lets me play and avoid depriciation.