How low is low enough?

[sturgl]

I'm looking at adding a sub or two to my music (only) system. I listen mostly to jazz, with healthy smattering of funk, rock, pop, folk and classical thrown in. As you'd imagine, musicality is key to me. I don't need the bone-crushing lows required by a HT setup. I do need something that can play music below 50 Hz exceptionally well. So. Assuming that I can also live without the last few Hz that might be supplied by a pipe organ in classical music, what kind of in-room response do you think I need to cover the gamut of frequency range for my particular listening needs? The lowest note on a double bass is around 31 Hz... but I'm having trouble mapping out how deep certain percussion instruments might play...

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[j_garcia]

Based on what you are saying, somewhere aronud 25Hz would probably be fine, but I'd still shoot for something thas is 20Hz capable so you are getting at least the full audible range. When I went from a sub that was good to 25Hz to one that was good to 18, it still had a noticeable impact on music playback.

 

[lsiberian]

I'm looking at adding a sub or two to my music (only) system. I listen mostly to jazz, with healthy smattering of funk, rock, pop, folk and classical thrown in. As you'd imagine, musicality is key to me. I don't need the bone-crushing lows required by a HT setup. I do need something that can play music below 50 Hz exceptionally well. So. Assuming that I can also live without the last few Hz that might be supplied by a pipe organ in classical music, what kind of in-room response do you think I need to cover the gamut of frequency range for my particular listening needs? The lowest note on a double bass is around 31 Hz... but I'm having trouble mapping out how deep certain percussion instruments might play...

Thanks for your thoughts!

Chasing the low note is a bad idea in my mind. How often is the lowest note actually even played. 40hz is plenty of extension for most music. Which means almost any well constructed sub will meet your need.

 

[Swerd]

I'm looking at adding a sub or two to my music (only) system. I listen mostly to jazz, with healthy smattering of funk, rock, pop, folk and classical thrown in. As you'd imagine, musicality is key to me. I don't need the bone-crushing lows required by a HT setup. I do need something that can play music below 50 Hz exceptionally well. So. Assuming that I can also live without the last few Hz that might be supplied by a pipe organ in classical music, what kind of in-room response do you think I need to cover the gamut of frequency range for my particular listening needs?

Down to 30 Hz will do fine for music. Many decent subs can go as low as 25 Hz.

The lowest note on a double bass is around 31 Hz... but I'm having trouble mapping out how deep certain percussion instruments might play...

Check out the Interactive Frequency Chart

 

[AVRat]

There's a chart here that might help, but a -3dB @ 30Hz should be sufficient. http://www.dak.com/reviews/Tutorial_frequencies.cfm

And all subs are not created equal. Even though their specs say otherwise.

 

[djreef]

I think I'm qualified to answer this one.

(see picture and system description below)

DJ

 

[sturgl]

Thanks!

Thanks folks - just the kind of feedback I was looking for. Since size is an issue (well, WAF is an issue, and therefore so is size), I was hoping that I could justify to myself a smaller sub. SVS's new SB12-Plus sounds like an attractive option to me.

 

[basspig]

The lower limit is not limited by the fundamental of the low E on a bass guitar. There are components of kick drum that go down to 10Hz. The music will sound different on a system that goes down to 10Hz than it will on one that goes down to 25 (by that, I mean systems where the -3dB point is either of those frequencies), all other things being equal.
Especially with vented systems, you want the tuning to be a full octave below any musically-important frequency because of group delay.
There is a certain quality that's there in live music because the air between the instruments and you isn't limiting the LF response very much at all. Recorded music always sounds different because the bandwidth is more limited. It's what you DON'T feel that doesn't give you the subliminal cues that you pick up in a live concert. It could even be the rumble of the HVAC in a huge venue. If that's gone in the playback, you've just lost one of the very important, but overlooked, cues that exist in live venue music.

 

[highfigh]

I'm looking at adding a sub or two to my music (only) system. I listen mostly to jazz, with healthy smattering of funk, rock, pop, folk and classical thrown in. As you'd imagine, musicality is key to me. I don't need the bone-crushing lows required by a HT setup. I do need something that can play music below 50 Hz exceptionally well. So. Assuming that I can also live without the last few Hz that might be supplied by a pipe organ in classical music, what kind of in-room response do you think I need to cover the gamut of frequency range for my particular listening needs? The lowest note on a double bass is around 31 Hz... but I'm having trouble mapping out how deep certain percussion instruments might play...

Thanks for your thoughts!

First, your room will cause most woofers that claim to have a 3dB point of 50Hz to do fine well below that frequency. In an anechoic chamber or outside with no boundaries, it may be accurate but in a room, mid-20Hz range is definitely possible. If you buy something locally, see if you can return it if it just doesn't work when placed in several room locations. That way, you can find something without having to commit once and only once. Don't try to use a woofer that's too large for the room. That causes the Q to be too high and for what you listen to, a lower Q is better. If you only listened to Rap, a high Q is fine because of the limited bass range. This means that many 10" subwoofers will work great in a smaller room. In a really small room, an 8" woofer will be fine. It's much more important that the box be the correct size than the actual size of the woofer. You may also want to compare sealed enclosure vs vented- for what you want to listen to, you may like the sealed box more because it tends to be a smoother response.

 

[j_garcia]

The lower limit is not limited by the fundamental of the low E on a bass guitar. There are components of kick drum that go down to 10Hz. The music will sound different on a system that goes down to 10Hz than it will on one that goes down to 25 (by that, I mean systems where the -3dB point is either of those frequencies), all other things being equal.
Especially with vented systems, you want the tuning to be a full octave below any musically-important frequency because of group delay.
There is a certain quality that's there in live music because the air between the instruments and you isn't limiting the LF response very much at all. Recorded music always sounds different because the bandwidth is more limited. It's what you DON'T feel that doesn't give you the subliminal cues that you pick up in a live concert. It could even be the rumble of the HVAC in a huge venue. If that's gone in the playback, you've just lost one of the very important, but overlooked, cues that exist in live venue music.

That is pretty much what I was getting at earlier when I said at least 20Hz capable. You don't really know you are missing it until you hear a system that can do it. "Tangible" is the best description I can come up with to describe that extra dimension that is missing when you don't have a sub that is able to reproduce it. It brings out that extra layer of realism.

 

[fredk]

It also depends on how low your speakers reach. My mains have a -3db point of 36Hz. On most basic music, I don't notice the difference between sub and no sub. When I put on my pipe organ disc the difference is very obvious.

My sub plays flat to 21Hz in my room and that is plenty for even pipe organ music. The sub has a -3db of 28Hz.

One thing you risk with a small driver that is pushed really low is a loss of overhead in the upper bass. For music, this is more important than getting another 5Hz at the bottom end.

 

[basspig]

It also depends on how low your speakers reach. My mains have a -3db point of 36Hz. On most basic music, I don't notice the difference between sub and no sub. When I put on my pipe organ disc the difference is very obvious.

My sub plays flat to 21Hz in my room and that is plenty for even pipe organ music. The sub has a -3db of 28Hz.

One thing you risk with a small driver that is pushed really low is a loss of overhead in the upper bass. For music, this is more important than getting another 5Hz at the bottom end.

FYI, the 32' pedal stops of an organ have a 16Hz fundamental. 64' stops have an 8Hz fundamental. You'd be missing the bottom two octaves with a >20Hz woofer.
The right way to do this is to have various drivers specialized for each range of bass frequencies. That way nothing is sacrificed or traded off. Except maybe your monthly electric bill.

 

[adwilk]

FYI, the 32' pedal stops of an organ have a 16Hz fundamental. 64' stops have an 8Hz fundamental. You'd be missing the bottom two octaves with a >20Hz woofer.
The right way to do this is to have various drivers specialized for each range of bass frequencies. That way nothing is sacrificed or traded off. Except maybe your monthly electric bill.

Yeah, but you're out of your freakin mind... which is freakin awesome...

 

[Erika111]

Yes!
I agree, It also depends on how low your speakers reach. My mains have a -3db point of 36Hz. On most basic music, I don't notice the difference between sub and no sub. When I put on my pipe organ disc the difference is very obvious.

 

[annunaki]

What are your room dimensions? How large of a space are you trying to fill?

What types of music are you primarily listening to?

What are your limitations on physical size or is there a WAF that is needed to be considered?

 

[fredk]

FYI, the 32' pedal stops of an organ have a 16Hz fundamental. 64' stops have an 8Hz fundamental. You'd be missing the bottom two octaves with a >20Hz woofer.
The right way to do this is to have various drivers specialized for each range of bass frequencies. That way nothing is sacrificed or traded off. Except maybe your monthly electric bill.

True but:
1. Most pipe organ stuff is above 20Hz and many organs do not even have a 16Hz stop.
2. I may be missing the fundimeltals below 20Hz, but I still get all the harmonics so end up with 'phantom' notes

No doubt being able to produce the lowest notes properly would be great, but I'm already 95% there with a sub that plays flat to 20Hz.

If money and space were no object I would have already ordered a MalX 21". If nothing else, how many can say they have a 21" bass driver in their HT?

 

[BWG707]

First, your room will cause most woofers that claim to have a 3dB point of 50Hz to do fine well below that frequency. In an anechoic chamber or outside with no boundaries, it may be accurate but in a room, mid-20Hz range is definitely possible. If you buy something locally, see if you can return it if it just doesn't work when placed in several room locations. That way, you can find something without having to commit once and only once. Don't try to use a woofer that's too large for the room. That causes the Q to be too high and for what you listen to, a lower Q is better. If you only listened to Rap, a high Q is fine because of the limited bass range. This means that many 10" subwoofers will work great in a smaller room. In a really small room, an 8" woofer will be fine. It's much more important that the box be the correct size than the actual size of the woofer. You may also want to compare sealed enclosure vs vented- for what you want to listen to, you may like the sealed box more because it tends to be a smoother response.

Excuse my ignorance but what does "Q" stand for?

 

[basspig]

True but:
1. Most pipe organ stuff is above 20Hz and many organs do not even have a 16Hz stop.
2. I may be missing the fundimeltals below 20Hz, but I still get all the harmonics so end up with 'phantom' notes

No doubt being able to produce the lowest notes properly would be great, but I'm already 95% there with a sub that plays flat to 20Hz.

If money and space were no object I would have already ordered a MalX 21". If nothing else, how many can say they have a 21" bass driver in their HT?

Most pipe organs are small. I saw three of them with 2' stops at an amusement park last weekend. But the small ones aren't the ones that get recorded. Most pipe organ recordings have 32' pedal stops. And most pipe organ recordings I have in my collection make copious use of the 32' stops. I have one recording of a Bach fugue where the organist shifts from one pedal to another, and the difference between the reverberating decay of the first and the fundamental of the following note produces a subsonic air pressure that you can feel. There is a lot happening down there. Not everyone is playing Allen four-manual organs, you know.

Ah, the size wars.. back in the late 70s, I was building what I thought would be the ultimate sub, an Electro-Voice 30W in a 96 cu ft cabinet. That's a 30" woofer. Only trouble is, it's got 2.5" of voice coil pushing that mass and was real sluggish. It didn't take me long to realize that four Altec 3182s would work out much better. 30" woofers look pretty and have that "Back to the Future" wow factor, but are just not as effective as modern, smaller woofers with longer excursions. I found 18" to be the optimum, and where the best engineering has focused in recent years. Precision Devices makes a respectable 21" woofer, but it's still way behind what other manufacturers are doing with 18" woofers.

 

[highfigh]

If nothing else, how many can say they have a 21" bass driver in their HT?

They were part of a basement stereo system, but I had a pair of ElectroVoice
30W woofers. Does that count? Their cabinets just happened to be the same width as the Koss CM 1030 speakers that we laid on top. so it actually looked like they should be there.

The helicopters in 'The Wall', by Pink Floyd, were incredible. Unfortunately, I have no place to use them in this house. Next one, I'll make a place, if I have to.

 

[fredk]

Most pipe organ recordings have 32' pedal stops. And most pipe organ recordings I have in my collection make copious use of the 32' stops.

Interesting. I had always been told otherwise by people who are far more familiar with classical music than I. Can't say I have ever looked up the sheet music to verify how low particular pieces go.

Yet another thing to verify I guess. Either way, my current sub is a huge improvement over just the mains. At some point I will build a sub capable of reproducing notes down to 16 or even 10 or 12 Hz if for no other reason than to satisfy my own curiosity.