DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[gonk]

Out of curiosity, and fairness, are there any other ID companies that take pre-pay money to do development? Price wise these pre-pay things seem to deliver on the bang for the buck, right?

I do not recall hearing of any other companies taking pre-pay money for either development (RSL II, LS-9, gift certificates for BMF or RSC-500) or manufacturing (discount on Rockets prior to being manufactured). As far as I know, AV123 remains unique in that regard.

New product development is expensive. Companies must manage their own resources and focus on developing the products they can afford. That means not trying to develop twenty new things at once, because each new thing costs money. Asking customers to cough up several thousand dollars to help pay for new product development is a dubious idea at best, if not an outright disaster waiting to happen. It means the company didn't have the resources to afford that product development, but it assumes the company will have the resources in a year or two (or three) to build multi-thousand dollar products for numerous customers without any new cashflow to pay for that.

The RSL II was originally pitched as being ready to enter production, and from that perspective the $6000 price for speakers meant to retail for $13000 appeared to be a good idea. It didn't take long for the reality to become clear: the RSL II was still in the early stages of development. MLS has become a master of using computer renderings to sell speakers. Unfortunately those renderings are just modern-day napkin sketches, often with little or no engineering work incorporated yet. It's much like an architect showing a computer rendering of a proposed building during the schematic design phase. The difference is that owners know their building is still years away from occupancy when they see those renderings...

I can certainly understand the small business in difficulty that has to "rob Peter to pay Paul" and would have been more forgiving if the raffle monies had been left out. Selling "in development" ( napkin sketch) product with 4 week delivery times for mutiple thousand $$ also crosses the ethics line. And stringing those people along with promises and rubber checks...

The theft of raffle money is I think what bothers me the most, but there's a lot that's happened which I feel is very poor business practice. I recognize why and how he retains customer loyalty, but with every day that passes I find myself more and more amazed that it is still working.

 

[Audioholics]

I can certainly understand the small business in difficulty that has to "rob Peter to pay Paul"

This guy was doing a similar thing - which worked out just fine... until the economy and car industry collapsed:

http://www.polkcountydemocrat.com/articles/2009/02/14/news/local/doc4992017fc9bc9330090834.prt

Did trade-in deals and then sold the used cars before paying off the existing liens... made him extra money and was a successful scam until sales dropped off the cliff and he ended up holding tons of cars with unpaid liens... Now there are tens of people with new cars AND their old loans were never paid off (leaving them liable since the dealership never took official title of the loan.) He's in jail.

Three things to think about: Greed is never good. Poor business decisions happen to everyone. Leverage can be dangerous. This is a good lesson for all of us I think. If AV123's situation can help me make better choices then at least it has done something...

 

[gonk]

I am continually amazed at how common pre-payment seems to have been. There was a post this morning from someone who pre-paid for the X-Plosive sub over two years ago. Last reports indicated that the development of the X-Plosive was now in line behind the development of a new twin-8" sub, which means it's very probable that the X-Plosive won't ship until at least late 2010 - or possibly even some time in 2011. At that point, they will have people who prepaid in 2007 and waited three or four years for a product. At that point, any savings that might have been had by pre-paying would be wiped away by the potential interest made simply by sticking that same money in a savings account and waiting, not to mention the fact that you'd be spending years with an old sub or no sub at all. I would never hear the end of it from my family if I spent money on a subwoofer when my daughter was two years old and didn't get the sub until she was in sr. kindergarten or first grade...

 

[randyb]

Did the thread over at AVS disappear?

 

[Matt34]

Did the thread over at AVS disappear?

Which one exactly, seems they get started and deleted on a daily basis.

 

[Matt34]

I am continually amazed at how common pre-payment seems to have been. There was a post this morning from someone who pre-paid for the X-Plosive sub over two years ago. Last reports indicated that the development of the X-Plosive was now in line behind the development of a new twin-8" sub, which means it's very probable that the X-Plosive won't ship until at least late 2010 - or possibly even some time in 2011. At that point, they will have people who prepaid in 2007 and waited three or four years for a product. At that point, any savings that might have been had by pre-paying would be wiped away by the potential interest made simply by sticking that same money in a savings account and waiting, not to mention the fact that you'd be spending years with an old sub or no sub at all. I would never hear the end of it from my family if I spent money on a subwoofer when my daughter was two years old and didn't get the sub until she was in sr. kindergarten or first grade...

There is no way such a small company could have maintained the tempo in which he was "developing" new product. It seemed almost every week there for awhile something new was coming out...more hype machine than anything.

 

[MinusTheBear]

What hyped products have turned into vaporware over this companies life span so far? It would be interesting if someone can compile a complete list.

 

[Matt34]

What hyped products have turned into vaporware over this companies life span so far? It would be interesting if someone can compile a complete list.

You better hire somebody.

 

[Jed M]

Did the thread over at AVS disappear?

Yeah, and its a real shame because it exposed Mark for the liar that he is. The man has no integrity and should be jailed. In the thread they deleted he accused me of writing a letter I never wrote (if somebody wants it I copied and saved the 4th page, where he lied about me, to a word doc). I posted the real letter in its entirety, called him out as a liar, sent him 2 emails further calling him a liar to his "secret private" account and have not heard back from that lousy, slimy, rotten snake. Whatever goodwill I still felt for him I completely lost after he flat out lied about something I said. He said it to make me look petty, vindictive and confused about the issues. I mean its bad enough for him to divulge information that was a private message between me and another person, but for him to lie about the contents so he looks like the victim... Did he not think I would have a copy of the letter? The man is a sociopath. Seriously, he lies for hobby. Anybody waiting for money, it aint going to happen. He is a criminal who steals from sick children and dying fathers and then blames society for making him feel bad about it.

EDIT: Not bad for a first post.

 

[stevo238]

It does my heart good that the once AV123 faithful have finally come down to earth (save MAC and a few others) and see the man for what he is, a modern day P.T. Barnum. Now P.T. brought a lot of joy to many people and though he may not be credited with the quote, he knew that "There's a sucker born every minute." P.T. never denied that quote either and he never let a good crisis go to waste.

-When the Boss is answering the phone, they've let the secretary go.

 

[Matt34]

EDIT: Not bad for a first post.

Is there a reason you have two accounts?

Edit: Talked to Jed, taken care of.

 

[gonk]

What hyped products have turned into vaporware over this companies life span so far? It would be interesting if someone can compile a complete list.

here's an old AV123 product wiki page that's no longer maintained which tried to keep track of all the proposed products, and of course any list is going to contain a mix of products that have been delayed but are said to still be in development and products that have just fallen off the radar. I took a stab at a list, but it got long in a hurry and sometimes just keeping track of the names is a challenge. What would really be entertaining would be to add dates for when each was originally announced and originally expected to ship.

• Onix Reference 200 center speaker
• Rocket RSC-500 center speaker
• Strata Center
• Strata On-Wall
• Reference Digital Monitor
• X-LS SWG bookshelf
• BMF-1 subwoofer
• X-Sub Encore subwoofer
• X-Plosive subwoofer (delayed for new twin-8" sub)
• Strata Max (recently mentioned as still in development)
• LS Center
• Rocket II line
• X-Hub
• X-Empower
• X-Empower^2
• X-EQ

I'm sure I've missed a few. We could also include the UFW-12 HR kit that's supposed to ship any day now and the LS-4 that was offered as a raffle prize in late 2007, I suppose.

Yeah, and its a real shame because it exposed Mark for the liar that he is. The man has no integrity and should be jailed. In the thread they deleted he accused me of writing a letter I never wrote (if somebody wants it I copied and saved the 4th page, where he lied about me, to a word doc). I posted the real letter in its entirety, called him out as a liar, sent him 2 emails further calling him a liar to his "secret private" account and have not heard back from that lousy, slimy, rotten snake. Whatever goodwill I still felt for him I completely lost after he flat out lied about something I said. He said it to make me look petty, vindictive and confused about the issues. I mean its bad enough for him to divulge information that was a private message between me and another person, but for him to lie about the contents so he looks like the victim... Did he not think I would have a copy of the letter? The man is a sociopath. Seriously, he lies for hobby. Anybody waiting for money, it aint going to happen. He is a criminal who steals from sick children and dying fathers and then blames society for making him feel bad about it.

EDIT: Not bad for a first post.

I don't think I saw that thread. Sounds nasty. I've seen posts from him when he gets pretty out of line (switching from "best buddy" mode to "hurt feelings" mode or jumping straight to "rude and insulting" mode). You've got a PM, by the way.

 

[Jed M]

Is there a reason you have two accounts?

Edit: Talked to Jed, taken care of.

Thanks Matt. Sorry for the confusion I caused. Hopefully you will be seeing a lot more of me around here and not just this thread.

 

[Soundman]

It does my heart good that the once AV123 faithful have finally come down to earth (save MAC and a few others) and see the man for what he is, a modern day P.T. Barnum. Now P.T. brought a lot of joy to many people and though he may not be credited with the quote, he knew that "There's a sucker born every minute." P.T. never denied that quote either and he never let a good crisis go to waste.

-When the Boss is answering the phone, they've let the secretary go.

The situation is just plain sad. Everytime a new story pops up, it sickens me.

 

[MinusTheBear]

here's an old AV123 product wiki page that's no longer maintained which tried to keep track of all the proposed products, and of course any list is going to contain a mix of products that have been delayed but are said to still be in development and products that have just fallen off the radar. I took a stab at a list, but it got long in a hurry and sometimes just keeping track of the names is a challenge. What would really be entertaining would be to add dates for when each was originally announced and originally expected to ship.

• Onix Reference 200 center speaker
• Rocket RSC-500 center speaker
• Strata Center
• Strata On-Wall
• Reference Digital Monitor
• X-LS SWG bookshelf
• BMF-1 subwoofer
• X-Sub Encore subwoofer
• X-Plosive subwoofer (delayed for new twin-8" sub)
• Strata Max (recently mentioned as still in development)
• LS Center
• Rocket II line
• X-Hub
• X-Empower
• X-Empower^2
• X-EQ

.

Thanks for providing that. That is a long list. Do you know which of these products AV123 accepted pre-payment for?

 

[BWG707]

Which one exactly, seems they get started and deleted on a daily basis.

The thread that seemed to have disappeared was titled "Is it safe to buy a MFW-15 now?" It was sad to see it go because for one thing MLS was actually posting on it the last couple of days before it closed. One good thing about it closing was that it got me to finally register on this forum.

 

[gmichael]

The situation is just plain sad. Everytime a new story pops up, it sickens me.

Until you go home and turn them on. All of a sudden, it doesn't seem so bad.

 

[Jed M]

Thanks for providing that. That is a long list. Do you know which of these products AV123 accepted pre-payment for?

The problem is he accepted pre-payments for everything really. He was clever about how he would do it. He would announce some new napkin sketch and then lo and behold a Gift Certificate promotion would follow soon after. Here he would tell people these aren't actually for the products, but he would let you buy a GC down to the penny for the product you wanted including shipping. He is a weasel. Technically he can say that you bought a GC that is non-refundable, your loss. But like I said, the unethical part is he ran those promotions to coincide with his latest and greatest vaporware announcments and had no problem giving you one in the exact amount it would cost to get that product to your house, even though he would then turn around and deny somebody a refund years down the road claiming that they only bought a GC and it wasn't intended for a product

I think there have only been a few legitimate, no wiggle room, pre-orders. The special finishes for the LS speakers, the 6K RSL-II's, the UFW-12 HR kits and a few Rocket packages. That is just off the top of my head. With the exception of the Rocket packages, most if not all of the other pre-order list has not been filled, going back 3-4 years on some of them.

I bought a bunch of GC's, but only 1 time did it go to the product I intended buying. Thank god I decided not to wait for the BMF and LS-9's.

 

[Chu Gai]

Since you didn't see the thread, gonk, here, I think, are the relevant portions that Jed speaks to. BTW, I have no idea what happened on Page 5.

Originally Posted by Jed M
I guess I just expected Mark to be a decent human being through this. I really feel he has and continues to mistreat people. I am severely disappointed in how he handled all of this.

So I don't know how to solve it either. I don't see any real change in the guy. I guess we give him more time, but I will never believe him about the raffles until we get some serious proof. I am sorry, but it smells pretty rotten. I hate to doubt the guy. Seriously I hate having to doubt him, but I just can't ignore the facts. I was just looking back the other day and I don't know what to think if I find out my $900 Katrina contribution ($500 after product) ended up not going there. I think of the money I gave anonymously in a couple "underfunded" raffles that he stole because it will never be accounted for. All he has to answer for is the amount of tickets sold. So honestly, I don't think he can make it right. He stole from me and I am an idiot for giving anonymously, but that doesn't excuse him. I see zero sincerity in his form letters he releases every 6 months. I wish I could.

 

[Chu Gai]

Continued...

Originally posted by Mark L. Schifter

I'm not all that sure how to reply - but I'll will do my best in any event...

I saw a letter you sent recently to someone that won a Raffle and in that letter you were quite sure that the winner did not receive his gift... This was a fairly expensive OMEGA wristwatch... I was really surprised to read that letter - and I was equally surprised to see "M's" reply to you. He showed you the watch he won - and along with it a few rather choice words... I had asked him NOT to post this - it was enough that we both knew he had the promised watch...

Jed - I wake up every day dealing with the things I did wrong... I didn't run - I didn't hide - I am PRESENT for this and everything else that went on during this bad period of time (other than being hospitalized and staying home for a period of recovery that were Doctor's orders)... I am truly and completely sorry... I'm also NOT going to post the letters I have sent to DW and to SK... I sent them - I meant every word of them - and I will follow the plan I am working to make sure that these wonderful places and people are paid back... I have received Grace and Dignity from them at every turn... I am grateful... Sincerely and utterly grateful...

I am in receipt of letters - PM's - and other communication about some of the "contributor's" in this thread... I'm really not at all surprised by what I have read - but I am sad for sure... These include some really interesting comments and in many cases spoofed personalities and the like... I'm not going to say more - I'm simply going to stay away - and DELIVER on my promises...

Many are working overtime to hurt me - my business - and really those associated with me... There are many people *I* have hurt by my actions both here, in China and in Colombia... I have had to face this every day... I'm sincere in my apology - and more than sincere in my making amends that are meaningful... I remember several weeks ago sending you a note to which you did not reply...

In any event - I woke up early today and wrote a note that I had not yet posted... This seems like as good a time as ever... I'm not sure if it will have any meaning to you - or to others... but nevertheless, I'm going to post it...

No matter what - I wish you the best... I wouldn't wish my situation on any of you - each day has it's own painful reminders in all sorts of decisions and places I deal with today... I'm simply working right foot in front of left so that all of the good can be remembered... I had done a good deal of that as well...

Thanks for listening...

Mark

++++++++++++++++++++

Good Morning…

Well, the first paragraph is always the hardest on to write when you have to say some of things I’m about to. I’m sure the “wisdom” of this reply will be debated - I felt that a few words are certainly in order, given the replies and the context…

The simple and most overriding factor for me in participating in our forum or this one is to have a “presence”. That presence can surely be a two edged sword when folks report a failure - but what I hope for is to be able to help people through with their issues - and get to a positive outcome. To that end I’m trying to be here a few times daily in support of those tasks…

av123 is a much smaller company than it was a year or so back. We see that as a positive as with the changes we’ve made - we believe we are a better company now in the go forward. All of this was necessary to be a business that survives the economic downturn that the world is in (not JUST America) and to overcome the mistakes and choices that I have made along the way that have hurt the business - and myself personally.

The above preamble was necessary to emphasize the importance of what I will say next. I have made many mistakes - both business wise - and surely “personal wise” over the last few years… Those mistakes have been well chronicled - and to be sure - I deserved a lot of the fallout as a result. Once I was able to come back to work I started charting a course (together with everyone involved in our business) to fix the business mistakes - and to then be able to make the amends I needed to on the personal side of the ledger… These mistakes were unforgivable - but at the same time I knew that I needed to do ALL of this and more.

While there is endless debate about my posting style - how I go about dealing with the daily needs of our customers or those wronged - my singular focus is to DELIVER. I have written some heartfelt words - but ultimately redemption comes packed in DELIVERY and not some well chosen meaningless words. There were many issues to be dealt with - and the continued support of my family, my coworkers still here (and those note) and our customer base has been nothing short of incredible. I surely had to pick and choose what to do first - and I chose what I believed were the most important issues of The Today so that I could ensure a positive tomorrow - and ultimately (again) allowing me to deliver (and av123 in it’s area) on our promises. Of course there was even debate about the way we’ve gone about doing that…

To all of us the most important and key “first item” was to take care of our promises in the area of broken product (like the MFW-15’s) and the delivery of goods. Without these points well handled, there would surely of been ample reason to not support current or future efforts from my company - or from me. With each day we are showing our hearts and our collective soul by delivering product - and our service in an uninterrupted manor - befitting of our customer’s trust in us, and the reputation we have earned. We delivered MFW (continuing to do the same with each day) and we are shipping items like LS’s, etc. on a weekly basis… all the while living and working in a glass house.

Every item on a Things To Do List has a number. Not all of them can be labeled Number One (as much as I might wish otherwise)… We have to work that list on a daily basis - and do everything in our power to DELIVER item by item - promise by promise. We are doing just that… I know there is further endless debate with even how I manage this - but to be perfectly candid… just as I have been called out for my style and delivery here in threads and posts - we all felt that this presence was important enough for me to spend part of my day here - and also in our forums. Why - because we want you to know that we ARE HERE and PRESENT for your needs, concerns and questions… and that I’m here as well at my extension in the office. I have invited many phone calls, etc. - and it’s been my pleasure to meet many of you and discuss audio or whatever suits your fancy.

None of us has the ability to be in multiple places at one time. What must take total precedence is the delivery on my promises and those of the business. We have shown our ability to deliver on these promises (MFW-15) and there are still more deliveries (like our LS’s) that are due, some as early as tomorrow - while pressing forward with our plan that‘s in place for complete deliveries of these currently communicated promises (again, LS’s) before the end of September. While each issue is important - we have to get closure on these one at a time - and keep moving forward. Staying locked into the debate does not serve this - our customers - or in the end… the complete delivery of all promises and the redemption that I personally seek. My further plan with respect to that issue will be moved forward in a very big way in September. I just had a meeting a few nights ago with some key advisers and plans are being put into effect right now that will deal effectively with these issues.

I’m going to be hopeful that this reply will put into focus what “early steps” have been made - and will continue to be made. Moving forward, there are more plans and promises to be made - and kept, as noted. We have a long history of delivering on our promises, and while there has been hurt o’ plenty - we have worked hard to execute the early plan with the help of many friends and coworkers. Those with their hurtful messages (or worse) will surely have their continued say - but as we have moved forward we have done so by communicating and delivering at the quickest pace we can muster - while not compromising our plans to build more and more here in America now - and deliver a product that we can all be very proud of. New products are also being readied for the market --- as that’s what a business like ours should be doing. We have made some sizable commitments to these new products - and when it’s time for them to make their appearance - they will.

Surely the name calling and innuendo is hard to wake to every day - but I have been reminded this morning by many that delivery on our promises is what it’s all about - and to stay focused on that mission… I’m going to continue to do just that - all the while knowing that there are those that seek otherwise… Their plans have been made very clear in this thread - and in others. I’ll let my actions and those of my business speak for us over the long haul…

I do sincerely care - and I hope this message serves to say that…

Many thanks…

mls
__________________
Founder and President
av123 / Rocket Loudspeakers
Perpetual Technologies